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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinxala View Post
    Back to my original point above, the new changes look fun, and I can’t wait
    To each their own opinion but may I ask what exactly sounds fun to you in those changes? I just had a quick glimpse again and the far majority are flat number nerfs, leaving only the change to Ignore Pain and RFDT as debatable.

    About the Ignore Pain change you said you like the fact that "the better you are at generating rage the better you are at mitigating". That's already the case, as more rage = more Ignore Pain, nothing changes?

    And what is it about the new RFDT model that you prefer? I gave the example of a typical hard and slow hitting boss which is what raid bosses are (not only this tier like you make it sound). It's the reason the T19 4piece with 5 rage generated on a crit block was considered not worth going for for raiding. Swings are not frequent enough for this to be noticeably strong. And for dungeons the internal cooldown limits its usefulness. There's basically no tanking situation in which the new model wouldn't result in a massive rage loss except if you're tanking M+3s in 940 gear maybe.
    Most of all, it means our rage generation and therefore our survivabilty does not scale with the difficulty of the content we are tanking! This means you won't get more rage from tanking a really nasty hitting boss. Unless they balance it around that difficulty (in which case you'd be stupidly OP in any non Mythic raid content), this means we will have trouble adapting to higher difficulty modes.
    Another example: As it will probably have an inner cooldown just like the T19 4piece, the rage generation won't really scale anymore with the amount of mobs you're tanking at once. If you want to do big pulls in M+ and you get the same rage from 10 mobs that you get already from 2 mobs hitting you, that's going to be a problem. Other tanks, for example DH, can adapt to that situation by being able to put Frailty on 10 mobs and aoe leeching the shit out of them, so they have scaling survivability.

    If they don't massively overtune the numbers for the new Ignore Pain or the RFDT model, they're bad changes for us. Why would you find something fun that's bad unless it gets changed? Isn't it more prefarrable to keep something that doesn't need changing to be good?

    Prot Warriors current philosophy is being incredibly strong at mitigating physical damage when you have Shield Block up and you don't show your back towards mobs at the cost of having a ridiculously low health pool and almost no passive damage reduction. So during Shield Block downtime or when you don't have rage yet on pull or when mobs might be hitting you from the side/back during kiting etc. you're at risk of getting oneshot in highest difficulty content. Same holds true for "random" magic damage that may be hitting you out of nowhere because you haven't played that specific content before and didn't know to Spell Reflect in advance. Other tanks have some fallbacks like Cheat Deaths, passive 20% magic reduction, much bigger health pool. Being at risk of getting oneshot / spiking hard is exactly the opposite of what you want from a tank. The new changes push the spec even more in that direction of being really OP during Ignore Pain, Shield Block but really at risk when it's not up. I regard it as a really bad sign that Blizzard doesn't understand that and pushes towards it and not away from it by stuffing all our survivability into even shorter Shield Block uptime and an Ignore Pain version that needs perfect timing and is probably too costly to sustain for high constant damage unlike the current version (which can be used for that because our rage gen scales with dmg income!).

    And as I described in my image, if we'll turn out to be spamming Ignore Pain it's either totally OP if it never empties our rage bar because we can generate enough rage to never drop it (unlikely) or if it constantly drains our rage bar, it will feel really clunky to use any other abilities (especially Shield Block) when you're getting drained to 0 rage all the time. Maybe we'll be able to toggle Ignore pain on/off if we decide we'll need the rage for something else but honestly the thought of having to constantly toggle an ability on/off while fighting to prevent being resource starved (that's a terribly unfun feeling) makes me puke.
    Last edited by Stallion; 2017-11-09 at 10:31 AM.

  2. #22
    I'm not sure what are they trying to fix with Ignore Pain redesign. I wish they'd made some kind of statement about it, so alpha/beta-testers could suggest better ways to do the thing.

    As of now, it seems like negative factors about new IP are that default behavior is to do 4 second buff maintenance until you completely out of rage, and that spiky damage will drain you dry and won't allow you to hit shield block at perfect time (I also speculate that we'll need cancel buff macro to sometimes drop the buff and safe rage for other things, typically shield block). So the main issue to me is unpredictable cost of IP closely followed by 4 second buff maintenance burden.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by GorkAndMork View Post
    I'm not sure what are they trying to fix with Ignore Pain redesign. I wish they'd made some kind of statement about it, so alpha/beta-testers could suggest better ways to do the thing.

    As of now, it seems like negative factors about new IP are that default behavior is to do 4 second buff maintenance until you completely out of rage, and that spiky damage will drain you dry and won't allow you to hit shield block at perfect time (I also speculate that we'll need cancel buff macro to sometimes drop the buff and safe rage for other things, typically shield block). So the main issue to me is unpredictable cost of IP closely followed by 4 second buff maintenance burden.
    It seems they are trying to make the design of it more foolproof from a gameplay point of view, as in reduce the skill factor with using it in order to normalise performance over a wider field in terms of player skill.
    I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  4. #24
    I welcome changes to how my favorite spec is played. I do wish rage to not be clunky and unreliable though. Currently in legion rage generation is decent (if not over the top)

    If they go with a design that makes you rage starved and unable to do anything this might ruin the enjoyment behind playing Prot.

  5. #25
    the reason I say it will be fun and im looking forward to it is because ALPHA hasn't even started yet , let alone beta. so they have a long way with a lot of feedback to go before anything is set in stone.

    from what I saw from streamers on the show floor at blizzcon playing the demo, the warrior tanks had around 20k hp, the ignore pain change simply says 60% of the damage you take over the next 4 seconds will consume rage. they have yet to quantify how much rage per point of damage or how that works. I highly doubt its a button that 100% drains your rage bar. that wouldn't be practical. imagine you have 20,000 hp, your rage bar is at 80/100 rage (or whatever) and a boss is about to hit you for a magic attack that will deal 9,000 damage to you. You activate ignore pain right before the cast and how much rage will be eaten from that 5,400 (60%) that will go to rage instead of your hp pool. I highly doubt it will be the full 80/100 rage.

    there is a lot of information we don't have, and honestly im trying to stay half full instead of half empty here. there are a lot of unknowns and I think it could be a great system.

    im simply excited that changes are happening and they can go in a promising direction depending on the beta I guess.

    I just don't understand how as soon as anything even remotely sounding like a nerf gets posted a lot of people go zero to one hundred and assume the absolute worst for the spec.

    EDIT: also I was just thinking, the decrease of ignore pain from 90% to 60% is a numbers nerf but I don't view it as a nerf at all. in really high content when you are attempting to get any semblance of an ignore pain up it is consumed almost immediately.

    because its 90% of your damage taken. if its only 60% I believe it will be easier to have more predictable damage spikes for warriors as well. im sure there is a fact or piece of information im missing but this is how I view it and im excited. plus in the end I enjoy playing my warrior, struggles and all.
    Last edited by Sinxala; 2017-11-10 at 06:16 AM.

  6. #26
    Yep, I acutally like the change from 90% to 60% too because it helps to spread mitigation a bit. But about the absorbing 5400 dmg with a 20000 health pool (=25%) with Ignore Pain: If I had to roughly estimate how much rage I need to absorb 25% of my health pool, it wouldn't be that far off from emptying my rage from 80%, maybe 50% but 25% HP isn't that much really.

    What I don't like about it is that in theory you're at risk of spending all your rage at once when you activate it and can't choose between using your rage to mitigate two hits by a medium amount and mitigating one hit by a lot and then having none left for the next hit. Currently you can do the first option by just not using all rage you have at once for Ignore Pain but spreading Ignore Pain uses out a bit. They should just remove it from the GCD completely like Taunt during Berserker Rage Talent, that would be the most flexible Because then you could just press it twice to use a huge amount of rage for a lot of absorb or spread it out.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinxala View Post
    the reason I say it will be fun and im looking forward to it is because ALPHA hasn't even started yet , let alone beta. so they have a long way with a lot of feedback to go before anything is set in stone.

    from what I saw from streamers on the show floor at blizzcon playing the demo, the warrior tanks had around 20k hp, the ignore pain change simply says 60% of the damage you take over the next 4 seconds will consume rage. they have yet to quantify how much rage per point of damage or how that works. I highly doubt its a button that 100% drains your rage bar. that wouldn't be practical. imagine you have 20,000 hp, your rage bar is at 80/100 rage (or whatever) and a boss is about to hit you for a magic attack that will deal 9,000 damage to you. You activate ignore pain right before the cast and how much rage will be eaten from that 5,400 (60%) that will go to rage instead of your hp pool. I highly doubt it will be the full 80/100 rage.

    there is a lot of information we don't have, and honestly im trying to stay half full instead of half empty here. there are a lot of unknowns and I think it could be a great system.

    im simply excited that changes are happening and they can go in a promising direction depending on the beta I guess.

    I just don't understand how as soon as anything even remotely sounding like a nerf gets posted a lot of people go zero to one hundred and assume the absolute worst for the spec.

    EDIT: also I was just thinking, the decrease of ignore pain from 90% to 60% is a numbers nerf but I don't view it as a nerf at all. in really high content when you are attempting to get any semblance of an ignore pain up it is consumed almost immediately.

    because its 90% of your damage taken. if its only 60% I believe it will be easier to have more predictable damage spikes for warriors as well. im sure there is a fact or piece of information im missing but this is how I view it and im excited. plus in the end I enjoy playing my warrior, struggles and all.
    People freak out because we went an entire alpha, beta, and most of an expansion being ignored and stupid shit constantly happening. Its expected that people are gonna attack any perceived nerf with a great deal of fury given we just came from a time where blizzard had no problem flat out admitting they were ignoring feedback.
    What is best in life? Bashin' stuff of course.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I walk into every new patch and xpac expecting to be the worst tank. As long I have the ability to go ZOOM and smash things in the face with my shield, I will be reasonably content.
    You're a true Warrior!

  9. #29
    I am Murloc! Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I walk into every new patch and xpac expecting to be the worst tank. As long I have the ability to go ZOOM and smash things in the face with my shield, I will be reasonably content.
    Well said. I don't need warriors to be the 'best' tanks. As long as I have Charge (Intercept I guess), Shield Slam and Thunder Clap, I'm happy. Physically beating the shit out of things with a shield (in WoW) is one of my joys in life.
    I'm not a defender of Blizzard, I'm an opponent of stupid.

  10. #30
    Gladiator would be fun to have integrated to Prot again. Even though i am sure it wont happen, i used to love that talent setup. I used to also like the restriction of not being able to get out or in Gladiator stance while in combat.

    Ow well...
    Created on the 25th April 2005.
    Protection Warrior since the old days of UBRS.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    It seems they are trying to make the design of it more foolproof from a gameplay point of view, as in reduce the skill factor with using it in order to normalise performance over a wider field in terms of player skill.
    at this point I'm surprised they havent actually abandoned active mitigation, since it requires oh so much skill to play.

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