DK DPS going into Antorus: Feels weak man?

[CausalXXLinkXx]

Frost was top in Nighthold and Unholy very strong in TOS.

I dont think that "weak" really fits.

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Thats true for most specs. Many specs still have some depth. Unholy currently is centered around one ability, just like BOS frost was.

BOS was much harder than current playstyle or even current BOS. You needed to keep your breath up for an eternity, i remember 80 or 90 sec.

That was the difficult part. Now thats gone and thats why frost sucks.

None of those issues matter in target dummy fights. But you will see strong unholy dks beating weaker ones by miles though gear is pretty close. Because there are still things to mess up, especially in real raid encounters.

Keeping breath up for a long time was RNG. Did you get insane belt procs? Did you get tons of KM / ME procs? That's what the spec was dude. It was just as RNG as DC machine gun procs.

[Fatel]

shit, shit and OH, some shit... same shit, different raid

[Hoeth]

You didn't actually talk about anything I said. I said that it's specifically harder to play BoS because you have to go into the fight with a good estimate of exactly how long the fight will last and the key mechanics of the fights that would make it impossible for you to keep BoS going. If you don't know those two things, it causes problems and you feel bad. So I'm saying that people are complaining because they had to move and cut their Breath short when, if they had done the proper thinking and preplanning, they wouldn't have used it in such a shit timing. People just want to hit things when it comes off CD and be rewarded for it.

Since fight lengths change week by week, it makes the playstyle a lot more difficult. Having a fight last 6:15 versus 5:50 drastically changes the optimal uses for Breath in that one fight alone.

This is the truth.

BoS was not hard to execute. One could pick it up and play reasonably well after spending an hour, if that, on a dummy practicing. It was more difficult to keep up without the proper set bonuses and legendaries, and certainly required a bit more set up before using it that MG does, but it wasn't all that difficult once you became familiar with it and those top parses were ones where the player had a ton of RE/ME/Rime/belt procs rather than just due to keeping BoS up for 60 seconds.

The complaints stem from people who don't usually plan out fights beforehand. If you weren't intimately familiar with fight phases/mechanics/kill times, you were very likely to use BoS at an inopportune time and get very lackluster benefit out of it. And because the entire spec was built around maximum and efficient BoS usage if this meant a shitty overall performance. Outside of BoS frost has never been a CD dependent spec, and even if you screw and waste PoF it isn't all that powerful and has a short CD so the opportunity cost is lower. If you ever PUG anything you will find plenty of frost DK's the blow Sindragosa on the pull on KJ instead of waiting for the add spawn, or use RW on CD during Mistress and completely miss every abyssal eel spawn, and yes their damage is suboptimal, but not so much as it would have been if they were using BoS and mistimed it.

In general specs with longer, more powerful CDs require more fight planning to optimize, and because most non-mythic raiders don't do any preparation whatsoever when they get blown away by players who do and they end up looking for excuses to protect their egos.

[TheFirstOnes]

You guys are thicker than ice (Get it?) when it comes to Wpvp damage.

Then again, it's World PVP. Nobody likes World PVP.

[Hctaz]

Then, why do you still want to play BoS ? You know what ? Forget it. Just don't assume every Frost players hate BoS because they can't "plan" the fight. Do you truly believe when everything goes according to plan, it feels great ? I'll admit it, it does. But this needlessly "more" complex rotation (as in one more button but with a lot more disadvantages that come to it)? I don't know what to say anymore, you're probably more stubborn than me so I'm gonna stop arguing with you. GL with your endeavors.

Peace.

You asked so I'll tell you?

It's because I enjoy having to do a bit of prep work to perform. It's part of the equation that everybody takes away from Mythic raiders. They assume that all grinds are equal in the game, when, in reality, grinding AP or lucky titanforge pieces is taking away from ability to dissect my logs and determine proper Breath usage based on the data from the week prior. I also used to sim my character a lot more using Simc itself. That tool has a LOT more information than Raidbots does, and I would do it every single night for about an hour after raids in MoP to optimize my gear. I just don't have much time to do that anymore, but I also don't really need to now. BoS at LEAST required me to analyze logs and figure out the best places for each Breath.

And you claim that isn't why people disliked Breath but it is lol. Look at the complaints from other people. They say, "Mechanics force us to move out and stop Breath!" but they don't if you planned ahead of time. You needed a bit of coordination with your raid lead, but I would run out, soak adds on Krosus, and come back in all without Breath dropping at a spot where others would have simply because I thought ahead. I would save Belf Racial, AMS as many spots on the floor, and then use my second charge of HRW as I was running back with Howling Blast to keep RP up enough. Doesn't seem "hard" to do that, but it IS hard to plan that all out and then stick to that plan at the proper time.

Everybody is always saying that mechanics forces them out of winning with Breath, but I really don't think any of the top DKs ever once thought that.


Now, I DO have to say that there was a lot of RNG that went into keeping massive BoS times going which I was not a big fan of. I'd rather it have a limited maximum duration that was somewhat difficult to achieve, but didn't require you to get really lucky with RE, ME, and belt procs at the tail end after exhausting your other resources. There was a few attempts on Tichondrius where my BoS uptime was about 2 minutes and 5 seconds before the first one dropped. That's a LIIIITTLE silly. I always felt like if they put an upper limit on it, then it wouldn't be so bad and would even possibly encourage players to drop the ring for something else.

[Cosmic Janitor]

You guys are thicker than ice (Get it?) when it comes to Wpvp damage.

Then again, it's World PVP. Nobody likes World PVP.

I will miss oneshotting demonhunters and warriors back after they terrorized me since the release of Nighthold with that god damned trinket.

[Raiz]

In general specs with longer, more powerful CDs require more fight planning to optimize, and because most non-mythic raiders don't do any preparation whatsoever when they get blown away by players who do and they end up looking for excuses to protect their egos.

You sure it's not the other way round ? Everytime I see someone ditching BoS, they all have to defend that spec. It's pretty funny.

I mean, why you guys can't simply accept that if we don't like BoS, that's not because they're doing it bad ? Personally ? I dislike that tunneling style much like dark arbiter because it forces you to focus only on one spell instead of a whole. Another thing I dislike about BoS (and RW) is the effect they do around the character which makes it hard to see if you're standing in a fire. It's not that hard to avoid, but you need to concentrate a little more.

I like to call that BoS spec the filthy rich spec. People are always trying to find any excuse they can to justify the "eliteness" it provides when you play it right (hint : you're not the only one).

I guess I'm kind of in the same bandwagon except I'm on the opposite side. But you guys seriously need to stop defending BoS and be a little more open with the others playstyles.

[Michael000]

DKs are really strong right now.

That said I'll agree the Unholy t21 is like the precise opposite of hype after t20. Hopefully the extra Death Coils at least boost Val'kyr's damage, otherwise that's gonna be a REAL uninspiring set bonus.

It doesn't and why unh will be taking a tumble down the mountain. Likely looking at going from top 1/4 of specs to lower middle of the pack.

Really glad they're doing away w/ set bonuses next xpac. Gone from Frost amazing/Unh shet in NH to Unh amazing/Frost shet in ToS to now double meh.

[Hoeth]

You sure it's not the other way round ? Everytime I see someone ditching BoS, they all have to defend that spec. It's pretty funny.

I mean, why you guys can't simply accept that if we don't like BoS, that's not because they're doing it bad ? Personally ? I dislike that tunneling style much like dark arbiter because it forces you to focus only on one spell instead of a whole. Another thing I dislike about BoS (and RW) is the effect they do around the character which makes it hard to see if you're standing in a fire. It's not that hard to avoid, but you need to concentrate a little more.

I like to call that BoS spec the filthy rich spec. People are always trying to find any excuse they can to justify the "eliteness" it provides when you play it right (hint : you're not the only one).

I guess I'm kind of in the same bandwagon except I'm on the opposite side. But you guys seriously need to stop defending BoS and be a little more open with the others playstyles.

Sure, some players require the adulation of others based on how good they perceive themselves to be at dealing damage. When you remove the vehicle that allows them to differentiate themselves from those they see as inferior their ego takes a hit. On the other hand some players are too transparent in claiming that they don't like BoS due to various reasons, when in reality their dislike probably stems from being unable to execute it well. And for the record I admit I didn't exactly love BoS when NH first came out and I wasn't intimately familiar with each fight, but once I determined how best to use in on each encounter my dislike turned to ambivalence. I think the same is probably true for most people; orange parses make it easier to tolerate things you may not be happy about if you were stuck with blue parses

[Piz813]

You guys are thicker than ice (Get it?) when it comes to Wpvp damage.

Then again, it's World PVP. Nobody likes World PVP.

Go to bleeding hollow US alliance. You'll LOVE WPvP

[Cosmic Janitor]

Items

• Death Knight: Dreadwake Armor
  
  • Frost
    
    • 4-piece bonus now deals 210% weapon damage per tick (was 420%).
  • Unholy
    
    • 2-piece bonus now deals 35% of direct damage (was 25%) from Death Coil over 4 seconds.

If that isn't just a text change I missed before, then the helm/defile build just got ever so slightly more interesting. I was getting tired of Valkyr anyway .

Also for posterity: Seeing how this might be the last time we see actual tier sets or at least for a while,I can't help but feel a bit sad that they didn't go all out with these, it feels like they blew their load in ToS.

[Deleted]

If that isn't just a text change I missed before, then the helm/defile build just got ever so slightly more interesting. I was getting tired of Valkyr anyway .

Also for posterity: Seeing how this might be the last time we see actual tier sets or at least for a while,I can't help but feel a bit sad that they didn't go all out with these, it feels like they blew their load in ToS.

Wow, middle of the pack frost gets nerfed by ½ and slightly below unholy gets buffed?

[Protean]

People don't like having to use their brain and map out their fight lengths I guess. They just like hitting things when they come off CD and winning.

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-shrug- everybody has it in their heads that Frost is just easy faceroll spec and always will be.

Same way people like to be condescending smalldicks instead of acknowledging that other people might just like the spammy fast-paced nature of a spec coupled with the animations/sounds/aesthetics of executing the specs rotation.

[Deleted]

Same way people like to be condescending smalldicks instead of acknowledging that other people might just like the spammy fast-paced nature of a spec coupled with the animations/sounds/aesthetics of executing the specs rotation.

Funny enough, to actually make the best of your Obliteration, you need to time it properly against runes, RP and remaining time of your PoF. The real differences against BoS are:

• you have that one extra button which makes no real difference since the prune
• you have to sit on shitty dps for a lot longer, given that you need intersection of good resources level AND no incoming mechanics requiring to fook off
• you still kinda suck no matter how well you manage it if you didn't get Seal of NF to drop

So, in short, to wank so much about BoS, one really needs to have a microscopic one.

[Hellborne87]

It's so comical to me how back in NH, I would look at logs and observe the pug DKs I found myself playing alongside, and most were really terrible or mediocre with BoS execution. Many Mythic raiders had the grasp of it pretty well but very few played it to perfection. And all the while, everyone likes to boast, "Oh BoS was easy, I just didn't like it."

Such nonsense. You sucked at it and found it difficult, didn't research or know the encounters to plan properly, or didn't have the setup with the right leggos and gear because you're either casual or main hop. It's okay to admit that you found something difficult or didn't do as well with the playstyle. Just makes me want to scratch my eyes out seeing all these supposed-gold-parsing-pros around every corner, crawling out of the woodwork now that it's the past.

[hellhamster]

It's so comical to me how back in NH, I would look at logs and observe the pug DKs I found myself playing alongside, and most were really terrible or mediocre with BoS execution. Many Mythic raiders had the grasp of it pretty well but very few played it to perfection. And all the while, everyone likes to boast, "Oh BoS was easy, I just didn't like it."

Such nonsense. You sucked at it and found it difficult, didn't research or know the encounters to plan properly, or didn't have the setup with the right leggos and gear because you're either casual or main hop. It's okay to admit that you found something difficult or didn't do as well with the playstyle. Just makes me want to scratch my eyes out seeing all these supposed-gold-parsing-pros around every corner, crawling out of the woodwork now that it's the past.

Breath can be really easy to fuck up, almost surely if you play without having anything to track it, but overall it basically boiled down to when to hit arcane torrent, hungering rune weapon, and being careful about not overcapping and wasting runic power.

[Deleted]

How We are actually doing in antorus compared to other melee’s ?
Perhaps its answered but i cant read all 3 pages of arguing :/

[Adlian]

How We are actually doing in antorus compared to other melee’s ?
Perhaps its answered but i cant read all 3 pages of arguing :/

From what im seeing so far - Semi good dps, Terrible mobility while most of the fights require quick moving, No DMG immunities and most of the adds are immune to grip.

[hellhamster]

How We are actually doing in antorus compared to other melee’s ?
Perhaps its answered but i cant read all 3 pages of arguing :/

Quite decently, both frost and unholy are neck and neck with other melees, with only arms warrior being marginally ahead due to their snap aoe and incredible cleave.

Both dk specs have their niches, and while unholy remains overall kinda better apart from a few niche fights, frost is looking very powerful with the new build that requires 4 set bonus, koltira's and shattering strikes, especially as ilvl progresses.

Unholy has better mobility and frost has a sick self dispel with AMS. Frost kinda lacks in the 30 second burst department, it only starts to catch up as the fight progresses.

We are not OP but it's a safe thing to say that we belong in the middle of the pack to good tier.

I think it also kinda helps that this patch is incredibly well balanced, with some very small exceptions like non sub rogues and non mm hunters.

[Piz813]

I pugged normal yesterday, 938 with writst and chest as frost and was top dps nearly every fight. Felt stronk to me

We know. Only ones that cry are kids that don't know how to play and UH guys