Punisher vs Batman

[Shadowferal]

Plot armor..more like publisher-armor.
DC would never kill off such a major character unless it's part of some alternate comic-book storyline.
hmph...a normal human character, no matter how fit, or smart, could never go against superhuman strength and superhuman speed, and with a savvy fighter intellect as well. (re Deathstroke)

[Mormolyce]

When you say "Deathstroke has yet to kill Batman in the comics", you're using 'plot armor' to say why 'X' can't kill 'Y', when you consider that Deathstroke is a genius strategist, fighter and marksman. Deathstroke is perfectly capable of killing Batman. The only reason he hasn't, yet, is exactly this: plot armor. Because Deathstroke is perfectly able to come up with a simple trap: lure Batman to a crime scene, and snipe him in the head from a window, a block or two away.

A fitting phrase comes to mind, and it comes from the Heavy, of all people, from TF2: "I've yet to to meet one who can outsmart bullet."

By that logic, a common thug should've taken down Superman by now because all he has to do is lure Superman to a location and whack him with a stick of Kryptonite. Plot armour foul!!!!

[Ielenia]

By that logic, a common thug should've taken down Superman by now because all he has to do is lure Superman to a location and whack him with a stick of Kryptonite. Plot armour foul!!!!

Superman was given a cripplingly heavy weakness. That is to counter-balance his near god-like powers. Assuming said thug can find kryptonite, which is a very, very, very rare radioactive mineral alien to the planet that arrived in a small number of meteors from Krypton, and assuming he somehow pins Superman down to keep him from flying away, then yes, it's possible.

The point is, since you're talking about comics, think about this: how many times Batman has been under the line of fire of several people firing machine guns at him, but somehow they all miss and/or Batman dodges all the bullets, despite Batman being just a human without powers? No matter how well trained in combat techniques you are, you'll never be able to dodge bullets from several machine guns firing at once at you. How is that not plot armor?

[jimboa24]

I think you just described exactly what Batman does. Except that Batman regularly fights super-villains and the Punisher does not.

Yes, actually he does. During the Dark Reign run he fought exclusively superpowers villains, and he regularly tangles with superpowers foes. When he does fight supervillains he prepares accordingly. One of my favorite runs was the one that he took on the Avengers to allow someone to escape them. They scoffed at the idea that he would pose any threat or challenge and they all ended up humbled (especially Tonk Stark).

Punisher typically goes after non-powered foes across the world because that's the evil that normally gets overlooked. As one character put it when talking about Frank to Black Widow, he wipes out the little evils that tend to persist while the Avengers are busy dealing with the big ones. But no, he DOES fight powered villains with regularity.

[Ivanstone]

Yes, actually he does. During the Dark Reign run he fought exclusively superpowers villains, and he regularly tangles with superpowers foes. When he does fight supervillains he prepares accordingly. One of my favorite runs was the one that he took on the Avengers to allow someone to escape them. They scoffed at the idea that he would pose any threat or challenge and they all ended up humbled (especially Tonk Stark).

Punisher typically goes after non-powered foes across the world because that's the evil that normally gets overlooked. As one character put it when talking about Frank to Black Widow, he wipes out the little evils that tend to persist while the Avengers are busy dealing with the big ones. But no, he DOES fight powered villains with regularity.

He doesn't. He avoids them at almost all costs. Just because he has fought them, that doesn't make it a regular occurrence.

Here's a list of his appearances:
http://www.comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=161
Why don't you go tabulate a list of all the times he goes against super-villains. It will be dwarfed by the non-powered list.

Meanwhile, Batman figures out how to kill Darkseid.

Seriously, I know the Punisher fits the NRA's wet dream and he is remarkably skilled but he is by no means the most dangerous non-powered human in the Marvel Universe. Being willing to kill does not automatically make you more dangerous. It does attract the attention of people who wish you wouldn't.

[jimboa24]

He doesn't. He avoids them at almost all costs. Just because he has fought them, that doesn't make it a regular occurrence.

Here's a list of his appearances:
http://www.comicbookdb.com/character.php?ID=161
Why don't you go tabulate a list of all the times he goes against super-villains. It will be dwarfed by the non-powered list.

Meanwhile, Batman figures out how to kill Darkseid.

Seriously, I know the Punisher fits the NRA's wet dream and he is remarkably skilled but he is by no means the most dangerous non-powered human in the Marvel Universe. Being willing to kill does not automatically make you more dangerous. It does attract the attention of people who wish you wouldn't.

He doesn't avoid them at all costs, dude. He never actively avoids supervillains. His targets are those who the superpowers types forget about or overlook or won't go after. The criminals that someone like Thor would just ignore and let the police handle. Punisher goes after them because Daredevil, Spiderman, Like Cage, etc they won't kill criminals, and the police he sees as ineffective.

All you've proven is that you fundamentally don't understand the character. He knows first hand what happens when the mob and gangs run rampant, and he refuses to let them run rampant unchecked. He does what he does because the cops and the superhero set WON'T do it. But he won't hesitate to target supervillains if he thinks no one else will deal with them like he will. Like when he made it his personal mission to assassinate President Norman Osborne , and became such a threat that Osborn brought to bear the entire might of SHIELD and the Dark Avengers down on him. Nick Fury listed Frank Castle as one of his top picks to invade Latveria with - his exact words were to "unleash the Hulk on one end, and Frank Castle on the other, and see who gets to Dr. Doom first".

Also, yes, he IS the most dangerous non-powered character in the Marvel universe. Name one non-super character more dangerous than he is.

[Mormolyce]

Superman was given a cripplingly heavy weakness. That is to counter-balance his near god-like powers. Assuming said thug can find kryptonite, which is a very, very, very rare radioactive mineral alien to the planet that arrived in a small number of meteors from Krypton, and assuming he somehow pins Superman down to keep him from flying away, then yes, it's possible.

The point is, since you're talking about comics, think about this: how many times Batman has been under the line of fire of several people firing machine guns at him, but somehow they all miss and/or Batman dodges all the bullets, despite Batman being just a human without powers? No matter how well trained in combat techniques you are, you'll never be able to dodge bullets from several machine guns firing at once at you. How is that not plot armor?

I think if you take it to the point of saying every time a hero is shot at by a bunch of villains and they all miss then it's "plot armour", well by those standards almost every action scene in all of fiction revolves around "plot armour".

The whole "plot armour" objection is only really valid when the contrivances required to keep the hero alive are really egregious.

[Ielenia]

I think if you take it to the point of saying every time a hero is shot at by a bunch of villains and they all miss then it's "plot armour", well by those standards almost every action scene in all of fiction revolves around "plot armour".

Once or twice, every now and then is fine. But all the time?

The whole "plot armour" objection is only really valid when the contrivances required to keep the hero alive are really egregious.

Like... many people holding guns emptying their clips firing at the hero but none hit him and/or said hero dodges everything? Think about it, when has any thug or even expert marksmen like Deathstroke or Deadshot ever even wounded Batman, bullet or blade?

[Ivanstone]

All you've proven is that you fundamentally don't understand the character.

I fundamentally understand that his war on organized crime is paramount over everything else. Its very easy to understand if you read Punisher comics. Tangling with super villains puts that at risk. Furthermore, engaging in wanton murder attracts the attention of people like Spider-man/DD/etc.

Also, yes, he IS the most dangerous non-powered character in the Marvel universe. Name one non-super character more dangerous than he is.

The most dangerous human is an interpretation by fanboys. Its never been stated in the comics. But here's your list:
Captain America
Nick Fury
Black Panther
Elektra
Kingpin
Bullseye
Taskmaster (Arguably depending on how you want to interpret the character)
Shang Chi (Recently got Superhuman powers it seems but old school Shang Chi is dangerous)
Black Widow
I'm sure there are others that I can't think of off the top of my head.

[Mormolyce]

Seriously, I know the Punisher fits the NRA's wet dream and he is remarkably skilled but he is by no means the most dangerous non-powered human in the Marvel Universe. Being willing to kill does not automatically make you more dangerous. It does attract the attention of people who wish you wouldn't.

Yeah I mean, if we're just talking about Marvel's shooters let's start with Bullseye. He's a better equivalent for Deadshot too.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, yes, he IS the most dangerous non-powered character in the Marvel universe. Name one non-super character more dangerous than he is.

Uh, I assume you mean excluding those with advanced technology, otherwise an obvious answer would be Iron Man. And probably a thousand others.

Oh, and magic. And magical artifacts (eg, Juggernaut).

Also weird stuff like Puppet Master's clay figures.

Essentially regular humans who use only real world weapons if any, is what you mean?

[jimboa24]

I fundamentally understand that his war on organized crime is paramount over everything else. Its very easy to understand if you read Punisher comics. Tangling with super villains puts that at risk. Furthermore, engaging in wanton murder attracts the attention of people like Spider-man/DD/etc.

Often it's a supervillain that ends up running organized crime. It never stops, slows down or gives Frank pause when taking them out.

The most dangerous human is an interpretation by fanboys. Its never been stated in the comics. But here's your list:
Captain America
Nick Fury
Black Panther
Elektra
Kingpin
Bullseye
Taskmaster (Arguably depending on how you want to interpret the character)
Shang Chi (Recently got Superhuman powers it seems but old school Shang Chi is dangerous)
I'm sure there are others that I can't think of off the top of my head.

Cap is superpowered. Nice try. Punisher has fought and beaten everyone on your list (except Nick Fury, who respects Castle tremendously), Bullseye in particular.

[Ivanstone]

Cap is superpowered. Nice try. Punisher has fought and beaten everyone on your list (except Nick Fury, who respects Castle tremendously), Bullseye in particular.

Captain America has never been superpowered. The list of people whom the Punisher has gotten beat by is not exactly short.

If Punisher has beaten Bullseye, Elektra, Kingpin and Taskmaster why are they still alive?

[Ielenia]

Captain America has never been superpowered.

Captain America has the super-soldier serum in his body. That gives him strength, reflexes and durability quite above human limits.

[Mormolyce]

Oh looky what I found.


Punisher/Batman: Deadly Knights (1994)

Oh boy...


Eminem/Punisher (2009)

...Why does this exist?

[Ivanstone]

Captain America has the super-soldier serum in his body. That gives him strength, reflexes and durability quite above human limits.

No, it gives him strength, reflexes and durability at the peak of human limits. Stevie got a short cut to the top but didn't go over that. He then used that to turn himself into earth's greatest tactical genius and martial artist.

[Mormolyce]

If Punisher has beaten Bullseye, Elektra, Kingpin and Taskmaster why are they still alive?

"Plot armour" kek.

[Ielenia]

Oh looky what I found.

Punisher/Batman: Deadly Knights (1994)

Oh boy...

Eminem/Punisher (2009)

...Why does this exist?

Do you really think DC would let who is arguably their most famous character be beaten up by the Punisher? If you think so, I got a bridge to sell you.

[Stormcall]

Cap is superpowered. Nice try. Punisher has fought and beaten everyone on your list (except Nick Fury, who respects Castle tremendously), Bullseye in particular.

You're going by the movies, not the comics. The serum, in the comics, simply put Cap's abilities(all of them) at the peak of human ability. He can lift like the world's strongest body builder, run like the world's fastest athlete, etc, but his strength, speed, etc aren't actually at superhuman levels, at least in the comics.

[Mormolyce]

Once or twice, every now and then is fine. But all the time?

Well, you can only get shot and killed by random mooks once.

I think Batman does get winged by bullets on occasion though.

[Dragonhawk]

No, it gives him strength, reflexes and durability at the peak of human limits. Stevie got a short cut to the top but didn't go over that. He then used that to turn himself into earth's greatest tactical genius and martial artist.

It actually did both. Originally it did give him superhuman strength, and I believe his limit was around 2 tons. Later it was toned down to peak human strength, though technically it is slightly above where any olympic athlete has been measured at. I think it was rated at around 800-900 lbs currently.