Classic must be tuned higher than it was in 2004

[Queen of Hamsters]

maybe its just healing but it was noticeable in tbc, I got prayer of mending and circle of healing so the aoe damage just increased substantially after classic. i would be flat out lying if i said i had a harder time healing in classic than i did in later expansions. hell i can remember doing underbog heroic for the first time and that 2 pack of gaint crab things would one shot most tanks, there were packs like that in all the heroics that would just melt tanks like they were naked, that shit just didn't happen in classic not that i saw anyway, perhaps patchwerk was the first real melee melter but i don't remember the spike damage until i started healing heroics.

It goes for DPS and Tanks as well.
It's just a fact that whilst entry into raiding, the logistics end, have gotten easier, the performance requirements and mechanical difficulty has gone up.

[Jastall]

rofl

Sorry, it isn't that current players are more knowledgeable, more tactical, or have more expertise. The game is *much* easier today than it was back then.

*compares kill videos of Naxx with kill videos of Mythic raids*

Sure thing buddy. My 15 years old self easily managed to raid up until BWL because bosses barely did anything to speak of, but obviously that's far harder than bosses who mercilessly wipe the raid if one player does one mistake in 7 or even 10 minutes of constant mechanical checks. We got dungeon bosses who have more mechanics than many vanilla bosses, and high M+ dungeons are so vastly more unforgiving than vanilla dungeons they're not even in the same universe.

I mean, sure the leveling in vanilla is harder, no doubt about it, but it wasn't very hard either. And the endgame is far, far harder if you run the right difficulty.

[Hunterwep]

maybe its just healing but it was noticeable in tbc, I got prayer of mending and circle of healing so the aoe damage just increased substantially after classic. i would be flat out lying if i said i had a harder time healing in classic than i did in later expansions. hell i can remember doing underbog heroic for the first time and that 2 pack of gaint crab things would one shot most tanks, there were packs like that in all the heroics that would just melt tanks like they were naked, that shit just didn't happen in classic not that i saw anyway, perhaps patchwerk was the first real melee melter but i don't remember the spike damage until i started healing heroics.

So you never pulled an extra pack of mobs in Scarlet Undead Side in Vanilla? Those Ghouls were Tank melters also....

[Halwyn]

Where did you provide proof that said mechanic requires faster reaction?.. You didn't bro, it's your pansy word against mine. No ones denying mechanics are more complex today, but you don't need to be some kinda superduper expert to do it, you don't need 14 years practice to be "on your level" of skill. That's the whole point I'm making, your skill is imagined.

Not interested with 'broing' with a person like you, sorry.

Well, if you can't deduce how that type of mechanic requires faster reaction, then I guess I'll just waste my time explaining that, as well as how you can use one triage 1.5s heal in tandem with more effective longer casttime heals to keep a person alive through 4s window. And if the debuff is longer than 4s... Who cares, 'reaction' bit is over. Shocking, right?

And for the last part... Wrong again, on a grand scale of things and in WoW in particular. And I salute your little attempts at personal insults. Still, I'll humor you, and will keep it as civil as possible, once again.

I've played with many people over the years. Some are pretty impressive. Some are average, and I won't say a bad thing about them. And there are some... That are unable to comprehend more elaborate tactics or gameplay elements (how much are left, anyway, Legion was kinda unmerciful on many interesting gameplay features, compared to WoD). Either because they're not the sharpest knives in the drawer or generally slow (tends to be more noticable on DPS classes, since those usually involve more pre-planning and spit-second desicions), can't pretend they're Caesar and do more than just tunnel-vision on smth, plan CDs half a minute in advance, etc. And it won't matter how many times they've explained on what they need to do, or for how long they've practiced, they simply can't. Of course, we're talking about playing the high end content.

Where am I going with this? There are people that will never be "on my level of skill", as you put it, despite what they do, just as there are some people that are simply better than me, despite what I will do. Experience of different contents, mechanics and toolkits and the ability to use the latter to correctly deal with the former is certainly a welcome addition that will make you look better. But at the core - it is the way things are, and thinking that all players have their potential to be equally 'skilled' given the same amount of time and effort - THAT is a pretty vivid imagination at work. Or just naivete. Take your pick, if you want.

[Ryanite]

At this point Kungen is a joke and a whiner.

You would do well to brush him off atm

He speaks of being baby sat and that is exactly why vanilla will be much easier now. It's not exactly that everyone is way better, it's that a few specific people who theory craft, make the addons and tell everyone else exactly what to do and how they should play that are better and better at communicating that information in a form that everyone can understand.

[Heathy]

So you never pulled an extra pack of mobs in Scarlet Undead Side in Vanilla? Those Ghouls were Tank melters also....

its strange for me because when i hit 60 like a week later i was raiding zg so, i played through 2005 as a hunter, i didn't get to raid, i tried to join various guilds but it seemed like a lot of ppl had made hunters and there just wasn't any demand, so i switched mains probably toward the end of 2005, it didn't really take that long for me to find the dungeon content kinda trivial, sure ppl could fail pretty badly but once you start gearing up in zg and molten core the 5 mans just became pretty breezy. but thats how i remember them most was when i was geared and just ploughing through them, in the beginning when they were 15 mannable the ass pull was off the scale, and yes it was totally possible for ppl to wipe a group, the mobs on baron side where cancerously close together as well it was super easy to ass chain pull a huge swarm of mobs there. its just different in general, the spike damage was more forgiving in some ways or the swing timer on mobs and bosses wasn't so fast so there was more time to react between blows. something became harder to predict as the game progressed. is what i was getting at with that.

[Jehct]

With 13 years of advancement, knowledge, tactics and expertise, the Vanilla of 2004 would be far too easy for the playerbase today. Therefore to recreate that experience, world, dungeon and raid enemies must be tuned much higher to account for these factors. Otherwise all the content will be steamrolled very quickly and it'd defeat the purpose of the project.

Tuned higher you say? Well that is not classic/Vanilla so it sounds like you want a Cataclysm/WOD raiding/dungeon experience with higher difficulties. Sorry thats just not classic.

[Doctor Funkenstein]

Yes vanilla will be steamrolled, people are way better...

I love the people who keep vomiting that up.

It was hilarious watching how these "way better" players handled Molten Core for the anniversary, and that was with all the modern addons, really great gear, and tons of experience and access to every single tactic for every single encounter in the joint.

Sorry, but vanilla was a pain in the ass because of the gear. Guess what! You're not going to be able to rock every encounter with your best gear even if you have it! You're going to have to be putting on tons of subpar gear with Fire Resistance and similar stats just to have a hope of getting through things. And that's only after you've gotten all the gear, which is going to take way longer than you think it's going to take. Hell, that's assuming most of the twits are even able to finish attuning for half the shit; a concept most of them can't even conceive of, let alone to the level of commitment needed for some of those attunements.

But it's cool. I'm totally wrong and all these "way better people" are totally going to LOL their way through all the content. Troo storee, y'all!

[Spookysheep]

Without transmog classic server will be epic fail.

[Heathy]

I didn't get to see the revamped molten core but i hear ppl had issues with things that weren't really issues during classic. like killing the dogs at the same time. or standing in a circle to mitigate the aoe damage from the arcane explosion spamming boss.

I cannot remember going out of my way to farm fire resistance gear, i think i had the drakefire amulet, paladin aura and fire protection potions for my first raggy kill. some of t1 had fire resist i mean i don't remember needing a hell of a lot more than 100-110. thats not an insurmountable task. strangely though the more times you clear molten core the easier it gets to the point that raggy dies before submerge anyway and so the hardest part of the fight doesn't happen anymore.

[Mehrunes]

Vanilla difficulty came mostly from gear checks as it is. Tuning things even higher won't make the underlying mechanics any harder, it will just make things all the more tedious.

[Azerate]

No, it must be exactly the same as it was back then.

[Mormolyce]

You're misguided. People aren't "better" now than hey were.

Well they do have over a decade of experience playing WoW.

[chrisnumbers]

Therefore to recreate that experience,

Here, let me finish that for you:
Just release Vanilla WOW again without changes.
Can you people stop already? Stop trying to change things lol

[Warning]

I love the people who keep vomiting that up.

It was hilarious watching how these "way better" players handled Molten Core for the anniversary, and that was with all the modern addons, really great gear, and tons of experience and access to every single tactic for every single encounter in the joint.

Sorry, but vanilla was a pain in the ass because of the gear. Guess what! You're not going to be able to rock every encounter with your best gear even if you have it! You're going to have to be putting on tons of subpar gear with Fire Resistance and similar stats just to have a hope of getting through things. And that's only after you've gotten all the gear, which is going to take way longer than you think it's going to take. Hell, that's assuming most of the twits are even able to finish attuning for half the shit; a concept most of them can't even conceive of, let alone to the level of commitment needed for some of those attunements.

But it's cool. I'm totally wrong and all these "way better people" are totally going to LOL their way through all the content. Troo storee, y'all!

Why is this a problem for you? I raided vanilla and have no issue with it, people have played the game for longer and have access to more information. If you for some reason want to cling to the belief that the 95% backpaddlers and clickers that played vanilla are better than the people now, go ahead but you'll see every single instance released in classic cleared faster than it was when it first came out, by a solid margin. The main problem in vanilla was that so many players were crap that you couldn't fill a raid with 40 skilled people on most servers. If you want to inform yourself look at what happens on newly released private servers, server firsts always occur way faster than they ever did on live.

[Hunterwep]

The player base today gets welfare epics.
Try to raid current content in blue gear, that is how hard Vanilla will be.

[Nitros14]

One thing you can notice right away watching private server guilds run Naxxramas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKdchCUvPtA is that DPS is _insanely_ high compared to 2006.

Anub'Rekhan used to take 6-8 kites, they kill him in two. Killing Faerlina in sub 4 minutes was a challenge, they kill her in 2 minutes. Maexxna just implodes. Heigan used to be at 50-70% by the first dance, they have him down to 20%.

[Deathquoi]

You're misguided. People aren't "better" now than hey were.

I can count on one hand the number of people I knew in vanilla that understood what hit rating did, or what their BiS gear at every stage of progression was. Players weren’t nearly as informed. Players were bad at executing simple fights. You had to bring 40 players to raids because the 15 decent players were carrying 25 shit players.

[Jastall]

go do a mythic raid or even a heroic raid in legion with nobody using DBM or any other addons

let me know how that goes for you

First, top kek if you think vanilla didn't have DBM or a weakaura equivalent. Addons were even more powerful in vanilla even, Decursive could play the freaking game for you. If the vanilla API is unchanged, you will see addons even more broken than anything Legion has to offer.

Second, sure. DBM doesn't actually do that much at the end of the day if you pay attention. Some bosses are made easier with weakauras, mostly Mistress and Maiden, but they're by no means mandatory. If addons played the game for you, how do top guilds have hundreds of wipes to Mythic bosses? Do they need better addons according to you?

[RapBreon]

Nope. Nope. Nope. No.

Balance, mechanics and lore must remain true to the original.

So here's my question then. If they choose to go the Private Server route and stagger content, but release 1.12 as far as mechanics, balancing, gearing etc. What do they do? Original MC progression wasn't done with 1.12 talents and changes, those changes undeniably make older encounters easier (as they weren't tuned for them).

Would a more classic experience involve a Rag tuned to factor those things in? Or just a Rag who gets walked over? I personally think that would be underwhelming and more dramatically...an injustice to his memory.