Here is a detailed reason why Vanilla fans DON'T want changes

[morbidari]

Let me start by saying that I have played every single expansion (vanilla included) of WoW. There are a few I hate (Cata, WOD) and a few I loved (BC, Legion). I have to start with this so that you understand that I know the current and past product.

The Classic WoW community doesn't want QOL changes like the Raid/Dungeon finder, aoe looting, or any changes of any kind to Classic WoW. There is a very detailed reason. There will NOT be a TL;DR. I want to go through this so that those people asking for any changes of any kind to Classic WoW can stop and realize that they aren't the target audience of Classic WoW at all, and they actually like Retail WoW.

There are 3 reasons that people play video games. I will outline them and give examples of popular games of the genre for clarity.

Mastery: this is the desire to play games to be the best, to be challenged, and to overcome the odds. Examples: Mega Man, League of Legends, Dark Souls, Bullet hell games.

Autonomy: this is the desire to gain power and freedom in the game. Examples: Skyrim, Civilizations, turn based JRPGs, Sims games.

Social: this is the desire to play and interact with other players. Examples: nearly every single online based game, split screen fps games.

Now you will likely notice that many of the games you like can fall into more than one category. Many games do. A few of the examples I gave actually fall into a few (Skyrim and League of Legends). A game as large as WoW can actually have something for players in each of these categories. Now that you know this I can explain exactly why Classic WoW has such a determined fan base, and why they want NO QOL changes. I will now put, in order of importance through design philosophy, each of these 3 reasons we play games as it pertains to Classic WoW and Retail WoW.

Classic WoW: Social>Autonomy>>>>>>>>>>>>Mastery
Retail WoW: Mastery>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Autonomy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Social

I put extra > symbols to help show just how far from importance each is to each other. Allow me now to explain how this all makes sense.

Classic WoW: Classic WoW is first and foremost and online adventure game. Social is by far the dominant reason people look back at Classic WoW with such rose tinted glasses. Players in Classic had to band together to accomplish even simple goals. A rouge fighting a mob has another mob join in and try to kill them, when suddenly a nearby priest heals them. The rouge says thank you, the priest says "hey let's party". That is a VERY common example of Classic WoW. Classes also had such unique skills and abilities, that knowing other players of those classes was vital. Since it took so long to level, many players had a single class at 60. No matter which one they picked, they could bring something different to the table. This meant that many people would look for "classes before players". This is a large part of the social aspect. To find those classes you had to talk to people. Many raids or groups would look for a Warrior or Mage for dps, not just a ranged or melee.
Autonomy is also a very large part of Classic WoW. The time it took to farm for epic mounts and consumables just to be considered for raids and pvp, gave many players a very large sense of character progression. Players also worked together, in guilds often, to corner markets and farm spots for certain items. This is a very large part of why people loved farming, even though it was boring as hell. It's that sense of control and teamwork that kept a lot of more "casual" players playing.
Before I will get into why mastery is so low, let me first address one thing. Why were many veteran raiders so mad with changes that happened in Wrath onwards? This ties into social reasons and autonomy reasons, more than mastery, which might sound strange, but it isn't. In Classic WoW the most difficult part of raiding was planning and coordination, not the skill it took to kill a raid boss. Many bosses had very few mechanics, most were tank and spank. Sounds boring? Well when you factor in threat management, resource management, class skills, CC, and gear needed for a fight (resist gear for example), many raids and bosses were far more interesting than just tank and spank. It took a bit of skill to execute it, but not anywhere near the kind of skill that even playing a simple game of Mario would take. I am not saying this to take away from the raiding accomplishments of Classic players, but even they would agree that planning and knowledge were more challenging than the skill needed to kill a boss. Many vanilla players who didn't raid, or couldn't, likely have memories of seeing that one player with epics and tier pieces and went "Oh man I wish I had that". This sense of accomplishment is why so many players were angry when epics just got handed out to anyone, and where the term "welfare epics" came from in BC.
Mastery was a far past back burner in Classic. PVP was the main focus for mastery in Classic, and even pvp had a lot of planning that went into it. Raiding, as I mentioned, had little to do with mastery. Don't believe me? Look at Naxx in Wrath. It was so bloody easy. Why? Because it was designed with planning, grinding, resist gear, threat mechanics, class mechanics, resource management in mind. By the time Wrath rolled around, threat meters, deadly boss mods, and dps charts were common with even casual players, so the more simple mechanics were trivial. To give you an example: the first raid guild I was in in Wrath ran 5 tanks, 8 healers and 12 dps in their 25 man. Yes the raid leaders had no clue, but we still cleared every boss. The only one that challenged us was Thaddius because of the low dps, which we were able to abuse with tank CDs after the enrage. Can you honestly say that would be possible in any other Wrath raid, let alone any raid after that? It simply wouldn't be possible.

Retail: Retail is primarily a Diablo like loot drop simulator. You go from challenge to challenge to gain loot. WoW's core design philosophy changed to mastery with Cataclysm. By making heroics harder, making raids more focused in boss mechanics, and less on class skills, homogenizing classes to the point that you simply looked for a tank, ranged dps, melee dps or healer, the core philosophy changed to being a Hero, not an Adventurer. No longer could 2 mobs attack you at once and almost certainly insure death. The game became more about telling the story about the people around you, rather than you making the story about the world and how it interacted with you.
Let me make something clear: I am not being critical of Blizzard for changing the design philosophy of WoW. I have played each expansion, so if I really did hate it, I wouldn't have bought each of them. But it is important to note this. This core philosophy change is also the reason that WoW hasn't seen subscriber numbers like it had in Wrath and BC since the launch of Cataclysm.
Now with WoW being so heavy on mastery, why are the others so low on this list?? Allow me to explain.
Autonomy was almost completely removed from the game, but not as much as the social aspect. Autonomy is a non-factor for a few key reasons. Progression is solely tied to character power. Gold is extremely easy to make, epic flying costs next to nothing, because of the massive amount of gold most super expensive mounts are somewhat common. On that point, there are so many mounts, that most people don't care if you have an expensive one. The only mount on retail that people would flip out about would be the black battle tank. This "so what if they have an expensive *insert anything*" takes away from the players that actually care dearly about it.
The social part of the game has taken the hardest hit since launch. What is the difference between x class and y class? Rotation. There is no real difference between melee dps, other than which one has the best sim dps. Now you might think I'm being a bit too broad with this, but let me follow with this point: In Classic WoW class composition was hugely important. In Retail WoW any combination of classes in different roles can beat any content. This is huge. Next lets look at player interactions. Well let's just say it's trade chat/guild chat between ques. That might not be the case for everyone, but it is for the vast majority. Queuing for dungeons, just to clear it without anyone saying anything and never ever seeing those players again, isn't very social. Going into that content is more about getting loot, than talking to, helping, or even interacting with anyone. In fact communicating anything at all will more than likely get you kicked from a team than just keeping your mouth shut and running the content.

Now before you think I am being too harsh on retail, I really like Legion (as I mentioned at the beginning), and I wouldn't change it. The point of Classic WoW is to offer a different experience. One of adventure, not heroism. Classic WoW is about community, not loot. Planning and knowledge are the boss mechanics. Getting aggro on a boss is the problem, not dancing around to avoid boss aoe attacks. Farming gold was a large part of the end game, not something that you get as much as you will ever need just playing a couple of hours. Waiting days for a world boss to spawn, rather than walking up and auto joining a raid and walking away when you beat them.

This is what Classic WoW fans want. We want things to be the way they were. Picking a class was a huge deal, because you might never level another one. Having a sense of adventure, not being hero #23853494237332 to be the ONE to save the world. Being just a wanderer, not the great general. Spending months to get 1 tier piece and being proud as hell you got it, not throwing away epic after epic because it didn't titan forge. We want to sit in trade chat and find a group, because we can weed out player we know are loot ninjas or have a bad rap, not simply press a button to run a dungeon with 4 other players we wont talk to, or see again. We don't want AOE looting, because killing even a single mob is a challenge. We don't want you to change the game because we care about social games and feeling autonomous, not having the game only be some arcade, press the flashing button, jump around, dodge the aoe, perform the monkey trick to kill the boss, kind of game.

I am looking forward to an untouched Classic WoW, but I am also waiting for Battle for Azeroth. Just because I am critical of the direction that WoW went, it doesn't mean I can't still like it. Classic had it's problems, but it's easy to ignore them when you don't have to deal with the problems that were added.

If that wasn't enough, I will give 1 more example. Look at the original Final Fantasy for NES and it's remake. The remake removed attacks missing because the enemy died, it removed missing attacks almost entirely, it removed magic having limited charges, it changed the magic spells that actually had no effect (yes there were a few in the nes game), it changed the game completely. It removed most of the challenge, so they had to add new dungeons to add new challenge. Sounds familiar right? Which do I prefer? Both actually, but for different reasons. I liked the sense of dread that the NES version has because so many monsters could wipe you out with no problem. I also like the new one because of the new content adding new party combinations and challenges.

Classic doesn't need QOL to make it succeed. It doesn't need balance changes to succeed. It needs the game as it was to succeed. Retail needs to keep going down it's path to succeed. Stop asking for changes to Classic WoW. If you think that it needs any changes, it's because it's not the kind of game you like, but you want to be part of the excitement that others have for it returning, warts and all.

[OokOok]

No one cares

#first

[Deleted]

Agreed 10/10. No changes please

[arr0gance]

Thank you for your new and refreshing take on this subject. Surely none of the points you've brought up have ever been considered by a single living human being in the entire history of mankind.

[morbidari]

Thank you for your new and refreshing take on this subject. Surely none of the points you've brought up have ever been considered by a single living human being in the entire history of mankind.

I would love to say that it hasn't, but looking at the posts here tell me otherwise.

[arr0gance]

I would love to say that it hasn't, but looking at the posts here tell me otherwise.

You could have saved everybody's time by simply typing, "I think this is better therefore it is." But I did enjoy your dissertation on the subject, especially the part with the hobbits.

[Sanguinerd]

Holy f*ck thats a huge wall of text hardly anyone is going to read.

Classic does need some QOL, or people will bitch like before.. you know that time when classic was current and Blizzard added QOL stuff BECAUSE people asked for it.

But hey if you don't want them, that's cool too.

[morbidari]

You could have saved everybody's time by simply typing, "I think this is better therefore it is." But I did enjoy your dissertation on the subject, especially the part with the hobbits.

Yeah we are breaking the first book into 3 movies. Need those trilogy dollars.

[Blamblam41]

I would love to say that it hasn't, but looking at the posts here tell me otherwise.

Considering you're comparing retail's loot abomination to Diablo 3 despite the fact that things like weekly lockouts, loot drop boss limitations and other stupid shit was still in vanilla.

What makes me wonder is why are you people so obsessed with going back to then? You remind me of old men obsessed with cars from their childhood. Nostalgia will not bring back vanilla, and neither will releasing Classic with or without changes.

But hey, as someone who actually played that cancer rather extensively, who the fuck am I, right?

[Sticky]

Title would fit better if it was [Here is a detailed OPINION why Vanilla fans DON'T want changes]

[morbidari]

Considering you're comparing retail's loot abomination to Diablo 3 despite the fact that things like weekly lockouts, loot drop boss limitations and other stupid shit was still in vanilla.

What makes me wonder is why are you people so obsessed with going back to then? You remind me of old men obsessed with cars from their childhood. Nostalgia will not bring back vanilla, and neither will releasing Classic with or without changes.

But hey, as someone who actually played that cancer rather extensively, who the fuck am I, right?

I want adventure, not loot. I'm also looking forward to BfA, because loot is still cool.

[RapBreon]

Properly spaced paragraphs, please I beg you.

[Mormolyce]

Wall of text would crit for 9000, but you forgot to reach the hit cap so it misses.

[Storfan]

Very well writted and definitely worth the read.

Holy f*ck thats a huge wall of text hardly anyone is going to read.

Classic does need some QOL, or people will bitch like before.. you know that time when classic was current and Blizzard added QOL stuff BECAUSE people asked for it.

But hey if you don't want them, that's cool too.

The implemented QoL-changes to broaden their subscriber-base into the casual pool in order to make more money. The pool that mainly consists of millenial kids with a 10-second attention span.

[Sanguinerd]

Very well writted and definitely worth the read.



The implemented QoL-changes to broaden their subscriber-base into the casual pool in order to make more money. The pool that mainly consists of millenial kids with a 10-second attention span.

What exactly do you people think "casual" means?

Also if you really think the current player pool is millenial kids you really have no idea what you're talking about.

[Deleted]

Classic WoW: Social>Autonomy>>>>>>>>>>>>Mastery
Retail WoW: Mastery>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Autonomy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Social

Mastery: The time to dodge Grand Widows Raind of Fire was 1 Tick or 2 seconds. Thats the time you had to dodge defile in WotlK and less time you have to dodge mechanics now (mistress big fish, KJ armageddon)

Autonomy: is based on personal preference. Did I want Hand of Justice in vanilla? Hell yes. Did I run BRD 102 times to get it? Hell yes. Can I do this now? Mythic+ so hell yes. Did all warriors/rogues run BRD 102 times to get the trinket? No, some just took another one. Autonomy is not based on the game, it is based on preference

Social: See above. There are flourishing communities in pvp, mythic+ or raiding. You can be part of it, if you want to. But you can also not be a part of it and do lfr. Will classic make people more social? I don´t think so, people who are social now, have big flists/guilds will get into raids easier. People who dont want to talk wont do it in vanilla. The wont pug. Perhaps the will join a guild and only write 5 lines/week. We had people like this, 100% raid attendance, did their job, werent social.

[Hyrja]

There won't be any changes beside bug fixes, as confirmed multiple times by Blizzard now.

[Thrax]

I want to go through this so that those people asking for any changes of any kind to Classic WoW can stop and realize that they aren't the target audience of Classic WoW at all, and they actually like Retail WoW.

Pretty much sums up the problem on these forums. They just don't get it and I doubt they will read your post to change their minds. Appreciate it though, and I fully agree.

[Deleted]

There are 3 reasons that people play video games. I will outline them and give examples of popular games of the genre for clarity.

Mastery

Autonomy

Social

Thank god noone plays videogames for fun.

[Deleted]

There won't be any changes beside bug fixes, as confirmed multiple times by Blizzard now.

But the still haven´t confirmed if 1.1 or 1.12 is the true classic. So we cant get both or something in between. Besides added items, rebalanced classes, addet BG (and cross realm BG) there were a couple of QoL changes (flight path). So there wont be any changes means what exactly? From 1.1 cross realm bgs are a change, looking from 1.12 cross realm bgs arent. So will there be cross realm BGs or not? You seem to know, so please tell me.