So Alliance lost the Nightborne beacuse Tyrande was a dick?

[Azarak]

You weren't paying attention in Suramar if you ever thought they would join the alliance. They are basically blue bloodelves, mana addiction and all. Both blood elves and. Nightelves are descendants of high elves who weren't very liked by the rest of the night elves for their use of arcane magic.

Also, the Alliance didn't lose them, because they never were part of the alliance. You know, because they've been in a bubble for 10000 years.

[Shakou]

It's how the perspective is I guess. I play both sides so who cares. But don't say the transition to the Horde was good. It wasn't. It was weak and forced. Did you even read the datamined stuff? She says it flat out that she didn't want in the Alliance because Tyrande said some "mean" things. Its all right there.

I read all of it and posted it in this thread, you're delusional and utterly distorting what was actually said. That's why I posted literally all of the dialogue up here.

She didn't flat out say that "Tyrande said some mean things and so we ca't join the Alliance" not even remotely close or in the next county.

What she actually communicated is that they considered the Alliance first but had to reconsider because the Alliance would have forced them to conform and abandon their own cultural identity.

See the gist of the problem is that you are cherry picking small parts of dialogue apart and ignoring others entirely. Like the fact that Elisande accepts invitation to the Horde and declaring her Allegiance after witnessing outsiders (including Aleria Windrunner) corrupting the Sunwell with the Void.

Then after declaring her allegiance she explains it even clearer specifically so people like you can get it through your incredibly thick skull that the Blood Elves went out of their way to befriend them and the Night Elves helped them reluctantly and weren't trying to be friends at all.

You're just not correct and you need to stop it. These little bits of things you don't like don't paint a whole picture, the whole fucking picture paints the whole fucking picture.

[Squiggit]

What she actually communicated is that they considered the Alliance first but had to reconsider because the Alliance would have forced them to conform and abandon their own cultural identity.

That seems like a.. bizarre lore direction to take. Not really consistent with how any of the other alliance races behave either.

[NatePsy]

I read all of it and posted it in this thread, you're delusional and utterly distorting what was actually said. That's why I posted literally all of the dialogue up here.

She didn't flat out say that "Tyrande said some mean things and so we ca't join the Alliance" not even remotely close or in the next county.

What she actually communicated is that they considered the Alliance first but had to reconsider because the Alliance would have forced them to conform and abandon their own cultural identity.

See the gist of the problem is that you are cherry picking small parts of dialogue apart and ignoring others entirely. Like the fact that Elisande accepts invitation to the Horde and declaring her Allegiance after witnessing outsiders (including Aleria Windrunner) corrupting the Sunwell with the Void.

Then after declaring her allegiance she explains it even clearer specifically so people like you can get it through your incredibly thick skull that the Blood Elves went out of their way to befriend them and the Night Elves helped them reluctantly and weren't trying to be friends at all.

You're just not correct and you need to stop it. These little bits of things you don't like don't paint a whole picture, the whole fucking picture paints the whole fucking picture.

Doesn't matter Shakou, there have been so many people that have disagreed with this guy and he's still not changed his stance.

[Doffen]

I read all of it and posted it in this thread, you're delusional and utterly distorting what was actually said. That's why I posted literally all of the dialogue up here.

She didn't flat out say that "Tyrande said some mean things and so we ca't join the Alliance" not even remotely close or in the next county.

What she actually communicated is that they considered the Alliance first but had to reconsider because the Alliance would have forced them to conform and abandon their own cultural identity.

See the gist of the problem is that you are cherry picking small parts of dialogue apart and ignoring others entirely. Like the fact that Elisande accepts invitation to the Horde and declaring her Allegiance after witnessing outsiders (including Aleria Windrunner) corrupting the Sunwell with the Void.

Then after declaring her allegiance she explains it even clearer specifically so people like you can get it through your incredibly thick skull that the Blood Elves went out of their way to befriend them and the Night Elves helped them reluctantly and weren't trying to be friends at all.

You're just not correct and you need to stop it. These little bits of things you don't like don't paint a whole picture, the whole fucking picture paints the whole fucking picture.

Says the one sprouting out all the false lore the last 13 pages. Tyrande a child compared to Thalryssa and Liadrin, haha. Newsflash: Tyrande was in Suramar 10k years ago, Liadrin was not. And it was alot more.

Also: Read the datamining text. If you don't understand it then you are out of luck. She isn't joining the Alliance because of what Tyrande said. That she joins the Horde 100% might be because of the events in Silvermoon. But thats not the reason why she doesn't join the Alliance. That was concluded way before. You missed so many points in the whole picture thing.

And: Reported you again. I don't know how you manage. You can write your points, even though they are flat out wrong, without all the condescending and flaming shit. Good luck.

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Doesn't matter Shakou, there have been so many people that have disagreed with this guy and he's still not changed his stance.

Many people agree with me that it is a weak story. Thats the thing. Thats my stance. Not the thing you tried to come up with.

[Traveler Voltin]

First Arcanist Thalyssra: I must admit, when I first learned of the Horde, I was skeptical that we would share common ground.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: I thought our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would seem "Elune's wisdom" guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: The Alliance feels too walled off... too cloistered. My people will never endure such stagnation again.

[Doffen]

First Arcanist Thalyssra: I must admit, when I first learned of the Horde, I was skeptical that we would share common ground.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: I thought our kin from Kalimdor would make obvious allies. But their arrogance and mistrust soon proved otherwise.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: It would seem "Elune's wisdom" guided her away from the bond we once shared. So be it.

First Arcanist Thalyssra: The Alliance feels too walled off... too cloistered. My people will never endure such stagnation again.

Yeah, thats what I mean. After that she goes to Silvermoon to close the deal with the Horde. She already made her mind. What happens with the Sunwell just takes away the little she had of doubts. What she said in Suramar before was that it wasn't a chance that they would join the Alliance because of Tyrandes arrogance. Wich is the point I am making. If it wasn't for that, joining the Horde wouldn't be so obvious.

[Florena]

No. Don't even.

One secondary Nightborne hanging out with one Blood Elf is not even remotely the same thing as a faction's leaders being fundamentally Alliance characters, and answering to an Alliance racial leader.





There is zero evidence of that claim.


Again, you are just making this up. There's nothing to suggest the Alliance wouldn't take them. They are already allied with the forces working under Malfurion and the remnants of the army who fought alongside Tyrande, Malfurion and Jarod.


Exactly.

It is pure fanservice to balance out what is happening with the Alliance and Void Elves. Ruining characters with poorly thought out hand-waving is not a good solution to "we need characters!" Doing things like bringing in the Zandalari, Mayla and Ebonhorn, or Silgryn and the Duskwatch Exiles are good examples of how to introduce characters to the Horde without pulling a dramatic character shift out of nowhere that is a slap across the face for what half of your player base has been doing for the better part of a year.

Or are the void elves fanservice to balance out the horde getting nightborne?

[Shakou]

But there you have the Alliance being dicks, or at the very least -super- inconsiderate. It doesn't follow their motivations at all.

A much -much- better way to handle it would've been to have Tyrande -know- Thalyssra, Valtrois, Silgryn, or Oculeth and have some ancient disagreement spark up again, after all those years. Maybe Thalyssra was Tyrande's superior within Suramar and used her position to bully the younger or less socially powerful elf before changing over 10,000 years of being grounded. Or Tyrande spoke out against Arcane Magic back then and had a heated rivalry with Thalyssra over it and even now, after -everything-, Thalyssra's insistence on wielding the arcane as a core tenet of Nightborn Society in the wake of how much misery? Is a serious issue that leads to an argument about the very -foundations- of Kal'dorei and Shal'dorei society to help drive a wedge...

That would've been good, because it could've touched on a somewhat touchy topic with Tyrande that we've had small pieces of through her characterization, and also reinforce just how much the Shal'dorei are stubborn and set in their mystical ways.

Here is the thing, although not explicitly stated Tyrande was a wee pup in WOTA, Thalyysra *is* her elder.

But Tyrande acts all high and mighty and all knowing even though she is personally responsible for the Sundering having happened at all. And yet the Night Elves hold a grudge against anyone "Highborne" except for them selves.

Not everything has to be stated out loud and repeated. Oh and here's the other thing where Tyrande and the Druids keep getting it flat out wrong, there wouldn't even be a world to save anymore if Arcane magic did not exist. This is all drawn out very clearly in Legion, actually.

Without Mages what have you got? The Emerald Nightmare consuming the world pretty much.

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Look it's this simple:

There was already reason enough for Thalyysra to prefer the Horde over the Alliance in Legion.

Okay?

Tyrande was suspicious of her and thought she we would be no better a leader than Azshara or Elisande, and Lady Liadrin was far more sympathetic. They very naturally built upon that already firm foundation.

Here's another thing that people in this thread are tragically overlooking: The Night Elves are only part of the Alliance for gameplay reasons in the first place!

[Steampunkette]

Here is the thing, although not explicitly stated Tyrande was a wee pup in WOTA, Thalyysra *is* her elder.

But Tyrande acts all high and mighty and all knowing even though she is personally responsible for the Sundering having happened at all. And yet the Night Elves hold a grudge against anyone "Highborne" except for them selves.

Not everything has to be stated out loud and repeated. Oh and here's the other thing where Tyrande and the Druids keep getting it flat out wrong, there wouldn't even be a world to save anymore if Arcane magic did not exist. This is all drawn out very clearly in Legion, actually.

Without Mages what have you got? The Emerald Nightmare consuming the world pretty much.

Look it's this simple:

There was already reason enough for Thalyysra to prefer the Horde over the Alliance in Legion.

Okay?

Tyrande was suspicious of her and thought she we would be no better a leader than Azshara or Elisande, and Lady Liadrin was far more sympathetic. They very naturally built upon that already firm foundation.

The point I'm making is that it would have been a better wedge to drive between their people than what we got. It would have been more heated and neither side would've been conclusively "Right" about it, but it's such a powerful and "Hot Button" topic for Elves that the rift would've been nice and deep. Not because Arcane magic stops the Legion, but because basing the core tenets of a society on arcane magic may or may not be a good thing depending entirely on perspective and the society's awareness of the dangers of magic.

It would have been more interesting and compelling, is what I'm saying. And it could stack right on top of all the other reasons we've got.

Here's another thing that people in this thread are tragically overlooking: The Night Elves are only part of the Alliance for gameplay reasons in the first place!

Nooooo. Nope. Nuh huh. Nyet.

The Night Elves were slated to become members of the Alliance as soon as WC3 came out. Hell, the Frozen Throne as an expansion was literally designed with the intent of creating a world where there was a tense peace between the humans and orcs, which is why the orcs in it are presented as much more three dimensional characters than they were in WC1 or even WC2. And this world was created with the idea of making an MMORPG out of it. That's why the characters weren't 2d sprites, but 3d models that could be viewed from different camera angles.

Remember when Rexxar started up his little journey with all the questgivers in the world? That was basically the Prototype for WoW's quest system and proof of concept. Even the yellow arrows carried over into WoW itself.

Night elves are part of the Alliance because they were written to be Alliance Characters during WC3. Their whole story leads up to that.

They even tried to use the WC3 engine to make the MMO, initially.



Nelves were built from the ground up to be Alliance characters. It's got nothing to do with "Gameplay Reasons"

[Shakou]

Says the one sprouting out all the false lore the last 13 pages. Tyrande a child compared to Thalryssa and Liadrin, haha. Newsflash: Tyrande was in Suramar 10k years ago, Liadrin was not. And it was alot more.

I did not say "AND Liadrin" I said Thalyysra and meant just Thalyysra and was only talking about Tyrande and Thalyysra. Thalyysra was 1st Arcanist of Suramar 10,000 years ago. Tyrande was just a novice Priestess.

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The point I'm making is that it would have been a better wedge to drive between their people than what we got. It would have been more heated and neither side would've been conclusively "Right" about it, but it's such a powerful and "Hot Button" topic for Elves that the rift would've been nice and deep. Not because Arcane magic stops the Legion, but because basing the core tenets of a society on arcane magic may or may not be a good thing depending entirely on perspective and the society's awareness of the dangers of magic.

It would have been more interesting and compelling, is what I'm saying. And it could stack right on top of all the other reasons we've got.



Nooooo. Nope. Nuh huh. Nyet.

The Night Elves were slated to become members of the Alliance as soon as WC3 came out. Hell, the Frozen Throne as an expansion was literally designed with the intent of creating a world where there was a tense peace between the humans and orcs, which is why the orcs in it are presented as much more three dimensional characters than they were in WC1 or even WC2. And this world was created with the idea of making an MMORPG out of it. That's why the characters weren't 2d sprites, but 3d models that could be viewed from different camera angles.

Remember when Rexxar started up his little journey with all the questgivers in the world? That was basically the Prototype for WoW's quest system and proof of concept. Even the yellow arrows carried over into WoW itself.

Night elves are part of the Alliance because they were written to be Alliance Characters during WC3. Their whole story leads up to that.

They even tried to use the WC3 engine to make the MMO, initially.



Nelves were built from the ground up to be Alliance characters. It's got nothing to do with "Gameplay Reasons"

No this is false. Night Elves were not formally part of the Alliance until World of Warcraft.

WOW was in fact built on a modified WC3 engine (there is in fact a documentary somewhere online about the creation of WOW and it was not in fact planned at all from the get-go for Warcraft to transition to WOW but was an idea that they went with after some convincing), and that has nothing to do with anything we are talking about here. Storywise, it doesn't actually make any sense that the Night Elves are part of the Alliance as a formal member.

Did you not even notice there is little to no interaction whateversoever in the game between the Night Elves and the other Alliance faction leaders? Ya that's because it's a forced gameplay mechanic. In fact almost every time a Night Elf Faction leader becomes important to the game they have been treated as neutral.

Did you just not remember that they temporarily allied in WC3 with the Horde as well?

In fact it was never even specified exactly when the Night Elves formally became part of the Alliance and that would be because it actually makes far less sense than anything anyone is suggesting here makes no sense or isn't a strong enough reason for.

The idea that Night Elves would enter into a formal and permanent Alliance with Humans and High Elves who still to this day and always did utilize arcane magic is flat out stupid from a lore perspective and always was.

Like literally makes zero sense.

"Hey it's cool that you guys use Arcane Magic because we trust you but these other guys? Forget that we ourselves are blood related to them. We're still gonna hold our nose up with these Blood Elves, and those Nightborne? Well fuck em too you can't trust an Elf using magic! Except High Elves in the Alliance we never actually mention at all in game in any way shape or form, because that would just draw attention to the fact that this is all tremendously stupid."

And then y'all are somehow pissed that the Nightborne are Horde now?

Sorry but you are so far off base here about all this that it's ridiculous.

I'd be the first person to admit that Blizzard's writing is terrible. But if anything it's consistently improved over the years and BFA is only showing signs of that improvement.

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Alliance Fanboys/girls 2015: It makes no sense that this faction of Elves survived at all and totally breaks the lore!

Alliance Fanboys/girls 2016: Oh! Look at their armor and everything and how amazing their city looks this is so kewl! I hope I can play as a Nightborne eventually!

Alliance Fanboys/girls 2017: WTF Blizzard!?!?!?!?!?! I can't believe that Nightborne are going to the Horde, it's not fair! Sure Tyrande doesn't even want to be friends with them, but wtf does that have to do with formally aligning with people for military purposes? They should join us because I said so!

Me over here: Night Elves are and were always Xenophobic racists and extremely mistrusting of any outsiders including their own kin. It doesn't actually make sense that the Night Elves aren't their own faction.

[Steampunkette]

And that's the second time I've been called an Alliance Fangirl!

[Darktbs]

After Thalyssra 180° in character, the Nightborne can go and be horde so i can kill them on bgs, pitty i already got the Fire mage hidden skin, otherwise i would be in Suramar killing them.

But Thalyssra, oh don't worry, i have something special prepared for her, lets just say i learned a thing or two on how to control the Withered.

[Combatbutler]

After Thalyssra 180° in character, the Nightborne can go and be horde so i can kill them on bgs, pitty i already got the Fire mage hidden skin, otherwise i would be in Suramar killing them.

But Thalyssra, oh don't worry, i have something special prepared for her, lets just say i learned a thing or two on how to control the Withered.

What 180° turn, there is nothing out of character yet.

[Darktbs]

What 180° turn, there is nothing out of character yet.

Im sorry but to not feel any guilty or exitation in joining the Horde knowing that Alliance soldiers also helped in the liberation of suramar its just not right.

She is not even, "i must do this for my people despite them helping me" not, she is just like, fuck those guys, im with you, im even going to ashenvale right know to kill some of them.

And if you go and say "but Tyrande", so she can take a insult from her to the heart but can't acknowledge the soldiers that died and fought for suramar?

Im mad that she joined the Horde?Yes, but im salty because she simply doesn't give a fuck if the other faction helped as much as the other, she show no guilty, nothing.She could at least show some sort of hesitation.

[Traveler Voltin]

Im sorry but to not feel any guilty or exitation in joining the Horde knowing that Alliance soldiers also helped in the liberation of suramar its just not right.

She is not even, "i must do this for my people despite them helping me" not, she is just like, fuck those guys, im with you, im even going to ashenvale right know to kill some of them.

And if you go and say "but Tyrande", so she can take a insult from her to the heart but can't acknowledge the soldiers that died and fought for suramar?

Im mad that she joined the Horde?Yes, but im salty because she simply doesn't give a fuck if the other faction helped as much as the other, she show no guilty, nothing.She could at least show some sort of hesitation.

sounds like someone didnt read everything.

[Magnagarde]

And that's the second time I've been called an Alliance Fangirl!

I see you're new around here. You'll get used to it. I got used to it, even though most of my characters are Horde.

[Selky]

Tyrande wanted the Nightborne to prove that they had changed because the Alliance actually has morals. Maybe Thalyssra should have had a chat with Greymane to find out what the Horde did to the last walled off civilization they encountered.

[Combatbutler]

Im sorry but to not feel any guilty or exitation in joining the Horde knowing that Alliance soldiers also helped in the liberation of suramar its just not right.

She is not even, "i must do this for my people despite them helping me" not, she is just like, fuck those guys, im with you, im even going to ashenvale right know to kill some of them.

And if you go and say "but Tyrande", so she can take a insult from her to the heart but can't acknowledge the soldiers that died and fought for suramar?

Im mad that she joined the Horde?Yes, but im salty because she simply doesn't give a fuck if the other faction helped as much as the other, she show no guilty, nothing.She could at least show some sort of hesitation.

You do know they join up before the war starts, they had ties to two sides and simply liked one more than the other. Should every horde player run around outraged that the lightforged Draenei joined the Alliance, despite the fact that they saved their sorry hides, or that they saved Alleria. Stuff like that happens and is usually only upsetting if someone roots for a particular side.

I don't care what side a race chooses, after all both factions are equally retarded in my eyes. Races themselves are more interesting.

[Magnagarde]

Tyrande wanted the Nightborne to prove that they had changed because the Alliance actually has morals. Maybe Thalyssra should have had a chat with Greymane to find out what the Horde did to the last walled off civilization they encountered.

They'll know when the plague carts start rolling in into the Nighthold.

Would've been much better if the Horde manhandled the war with Gilneas, instead of allowing Sylvanas to do what she did.