Is Firearms Ownership in the US becoming a Cult?

[PickleballAce]

Phew, why is the stench of Drakkar Noir-soaked tracksuit getting worse? I think I hear trance music.

[shadowmouse]

I guess I don't understand why some people are so consumed about what law abiding citizens have in their home.

It's a mixed bag for me supertony. Many, quite possibly most, won't be a problem for me ... until at some point they are.

The guy in the Las Vegas shooting doesn't seem to have shown strong signs that one day he was going to do what he eventually did, but having a stockpile of arms did become a problem for others when something in his thinking went wrong.

Legally held firearms get stolen, after that they may well become my problem.

Similarly, concealed or hell even open carry weapons aren't a problem, until somebody screws up and Floridaman shoots somebody in the leg. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...discharge.html)

None of those things happen every day, so in the US there is (in my perception) a tendency to discount the risks as just part of a normal day. Outside of the US, no, it isn't part of a normal day in many places.

Contrary to people who keep trying to pigeon hole me into what fits their bugaboo, I'm not trying to bring up gun control here. I'm addressing that difference in thought. Fear is used to get people to accept things. That's also part of a cult's characteristics, hence (in combination with some other elements) why I wonder if we're edging towards a cult mentality. Where is the real threat, that is present in the US, but not in those other countries, that puts the need to go armed as a higher priority than dangers such as suicide?

If there is such a danger, why aren't we trying to identify and solve it? Someone earlier in the thread proposed that the NRA changed directions in the 70s and went from a hunting/sporting lobby to what it is today. If the dangers are more of a monster under the bed than a real fear (and if guns have simply been made into a symbol for swagger), perhaps it is time to dial things back. Hunt, plink, go to the range, shoot skeet, but you don't need your gun to eat breakfast.

"bungee, you probably won't get shot by some dumbass dropping his every day carry in a Cracker Barrel" just doesn't cheer me up that much. In that context, I feel I have a reason to care because as observed in Thin Blue Line -- it's my ass on the line.

what if you live on a farm?

Lots of whatabouts in that post. What about if I live on a farm? Well, the risks equal (dangers of living on a farm)+(dangers of having a firearm present). I was a Liberal Arts major so my math may be off, but to me it looks like whichever way you slice that the firearms upped the risk.

As for your whatabout for other means of suicide, that was addressed in one of those articles I just linked:

But let’s say that there was 100 percent means substitution, and someone found another way to attempt suicide. There’s not a lot of evidence that people will do that, but there’s also just no other method of committing suicide that’s as lethal as using a firearm. Even if someone then tried to overdose on pills or hang themselves, which is the second most common way to attempt suicide, it’s more likely that their method would fail or someone would intervene in time. And a lot of times, those people go into treatment and they don’t go on to kill themselves. In fact, of those people who attempt suicide and survive, only about 10 percent end up dying from suicide.

Source: https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/gun...ss-statistics/

[Mayia]

Well being as those same people are the ones who are okay with political violence against those arbitrarily given the title of "Nazi " regardless of whether it's true or not, I'll keep my firearms in the slight chance that somehow people like that ever gain a measure of power.

Good call i wouldn't/couldn't and wont blame you! ^_^

[Masark]

Phew, why is the stench of Drakkar Noir-soaked tracksuit getting worse? I think I hear trance music.

"lolol eurotrash! your homicide rate is way too low for you to be REAL MEN!"

[PickleballAce]

A fucking leaf.

[Musta]

It was always been....

[frogger237]

Its not really becoming a cult, there are normal people who own guns. But there are tons guys that can only get hard if they shoot a gun and guns also work as a safety blanket for paranoid fucks so it can certainly seem like its cult-ish sometimes.

[Dreyen]

It is a cult for sure. America's love for gun is like nowhere else in the world. They fail to realize making guns so accessible makes it accessible for others as well who shouldn't be having any. The paranoia to arm yourself just gets worse because other people have more and more guns too. The general culture just pushes them more and more to be acceptable in households, and you can thank the NRA and their powerful lobby to keep the trend going.

People would rather have dangerous mass-murder weapons available for all rather than ban them and keep kids safe from school shootings. They delude themselves saying "bad guys" can get guns even if they are illegal, but fail to realize most of the bad guys are mentally ill/unstable/arent connected with the mafia and probably would have a really hard time finding any gun at all if they were illegal.

In the end, a gun is a really drastic weapon. You'd have a better chance at survival if someone had a knife than if you both had guns, as the reaction time just isn't the same... Besides, most people won't carry guns on them nonstop, you can't just say "well they need to get guns and trained to defend themselves too".

[Ragedaug]

I read posts that talk of shotguns beside the bed, guns with silencers on the nightstand and all the rest. I wonder what the hell happened. And that's when I find myself asking, is it because firearms ownership became a cult? The NRA and its speakers are the charismatic leader figures. Crime, terrorism, even the idea that our own government might go the wrong way -- those are the ever present and yet intangible threat. The faithful speak a particular way. There is disloyal speech.

Are enough of the factors there that at some point fear will cross the line into cult behavior?

In the U.S., crime is down, but fear is up. The U.S. media thrives off of delivering fear, and naturally the government doesn't mind the population living in a state of fear as that makes them easier to control.

Everyone I know locks their car doors every time they to go a diner or a shop even though I've never seen anyone in one of those parking lots snooping around stealing stuff out of cars. The likelihood of needing a gun to defend yourself is extremely low, but when all you hear in the news is about bad people doing bad things, you end up thinking there are way more crazy people out there than their actually are.

That said, gun culture isn't a cult. Defending yourself isn't a cult. The media driving the population to live in a state of fear is probably a closer definition to a cult, but what you are talking about as far as people with shotguns by their beds, are people who are paranoid to one degree or another. That's not to say a little paranoia is a bad thing or that they'll never need that shotgun. I just don't think it's a cult anymore than I would call people locking their car doors when there is a statistical zero % chance of having someone break into it.

- - - Updated - - -

It is a cult for sure. America's love for gun is like nowhere else in the world. They fail to realize making guns so accessible makes it accessible for others as well who shouldn't be having any. The paranoia to arm yourself just gets worse because other people have more and more guns too. The general culture just pushes them more and more to be acceptable in households, and you can thank the NRA and their powerful lobby to keep the trend going.

Only people who have never been anywhere else in the world say this. (Just an FYI for you so that you know)

[Mayia]

It's a mixed bag for me supertony. Many, quite possibly most, won't be a problem for me ... until at some point they are.

The guy in the Las Vegas shooting doesn't seem to have shown strong signs that one day he was going to do what he eventually did, but having a stockpile of arms did become a problem for others when something in his thinking went wrong.

Legally held firearms get stolen, after that they may well become my problem.

Similarly, concealed or hell even open carry weapons aren't a problem, until somebody screws up and Floridaman shoots somebody in the leg. (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...discharge.html)

None of those things happen every day, so in the US there is (in my perception) a tendency to discount the risks as just part of a normal day. Outside of the US, no, it isn't part of a normal day in many places.

Contrary to people who keep trying to pigeon hole me into what fits their bugaboo, I'm not trying to bring up gun control here. I'm addressing that difference in thought. Fear is used to get people to accept things. That's also part of a cult's characteristics, hence (in combination with some other elements) why I wonder if we're edging towards a cult mentality. Where is the real threat, that is present in the US, but not in those other countries, that puts the need to go armed as a higher priority than dangers such as suicide?

If there is such a danger, why aren't we trying to identify and solve it? Someone earlier in the thread proposed that the NRA changed directions in the 70s and went from a hunting/sporting lobby to what it is today. If the dangers are more of a monster under the bed than a real fear (and if guns have simply been made into a symbol for swagger), perhaps it is time to dial things back. Hunt, plink, go to the range, shoot skeet, but you don't need your gun to eat breakfast.

"bungee, you probably won't get shot by some dumbass dropping his every day carry in a Cracker Barrel" just doesn't cheer me up that much. In that context, I feel I have a reason to care because as observed in Thin Blue Line -- it's my ass on the line.



Lots of whatabouts in that post. What about if I live on a farm? Well, the risks equal (dangers of living on a farm)+(dangers of having a firearm present). I was a Liberal Arts major so my math may be off, but to me it looks like whichever way you slice that the firearms upped the risk.

As for your whatabout for other means of suicide, that was addressed in one of those articles I just linked:

Source: https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/gun...ss-statistics/

Yes but as you clearly realize any study done has some kind of agenda behind it did it factor in repeat suicide attempts? people who learn what to do upon a failed attempt? you target guns in an situation that isn't really about guns but they become an easy method of doing said thing, the suicide issue is what needs to be address not so much the gun.

But you seem smart enough to know that and just want to use some study as ammo to prove your point despite the fact it doesn't really do it.

Guns are designed to kill, of course they are good at doing it if you use one to kill yourself or others assuming even a mildly capable person people will die, now remove a gun from a situation where somebody died with one and figure out how said person could achieve the same using a car wait no, terrorism and mass death is never connected to people driving cars into people....

The real issue with people killing themselves with guns is its easier to do it in a room full of people, assuming you hit the right part you can do it quick enough even with people surrounding you to get it done, any other method requires neglect or a distance from those who'd help you, but that doesn't mean all cases of gun death would be stopped if we took guns away but everyone knows that also.

the FACT male suicide rate is much higher than women's and seems to be ignored by the liberal elite is a much bigger danger to peoples lives than a gun is because if they wouldn't side with feminist ideals that the girl folk are sooo hard done by in the western world we'd have much more support for all people who might commit suicide like these veterans who are dirty men folk and aren't worth trying to help.

Using something that is growing more and more out of control because people are actively ignoring it in order to prove your point on another point said people don't like stinks of a setup but i know the leftist idiots aren't so power hungry they'd let people die.. they're only okay with ruining their lives and making people who disagree with them lose their jobs.


Suicide is a major issue that needs to be addressed seriously just like islamic terror but is just being ignored because its uncomfortable, more time and effort into gun safety suicide prevention veteran support would reduce these issues much faster than any other method and everyone knows it.

Just like everyone knows trumps recent re-tweet wasn't islamophobic just 2 videos of men who follow islam doing horrid things because the religion they believe encourages it, and one fake video.




Oh, and i'm 100% okay with people who want to own firearms having to sit down and have a talk to a doctor about how they feel every year or so, perhaps it should even be part of a GP's job to sneak in a couple of leading questions whenever a gun owner gets otherwise sick so they can suggest therapy before its too late, but solutions aren't what you are looking for you just want guns gone.

and its never going to happen.

I sat in bed one night just thinking alright lets do a thought experiment i design a new type of gun that is 100% trackable at all times its design fits all types of firearms people would buy and i try to using these new guns get the illegal guns off the street.

So first off we'd give them out to the militaries of the world and police forces their own guns would be melted down to get rid of them, same goes for any in evidence not currently being used, we'd pass bills to stop other firearms from being made without the same tracking chips made right into the firearms, so all the unsold weapons on the legal market would also be melted down, this would still take some time and we'd have an unlimited budget to offer money for those losing the firearms or perhaps a replacement for shops/gun owners, then we'd have to reduce the number of illegal guns lets limit ourselves to just america for now because we'd have to go to war with some countries to take their guns from them, so lets go crazy and bring the entire military back into the country combine them with the police force give them metal detectors and have them move east/west across the country taking any guns they encounter.

This would still take years to do criminals who have illegal guns wouldn't be very keen to give them up, so they'd hide them smuggling would keep others in rotation i suspect to reduce the illegal firearms using these almost unlimited resources from just america would take 15-20 years if not longer.

So what does taking all the guns from America really achieve?
home grown terrorism might reduce it'd be harder to take a marked gun into a school area i guess gang shootings would reduce they'd have to do gang beatings and stabbings now but the innocent by standers are less likely to die to a bullet fired from a moving car, but guns will still be stolen just more likely to be tracked down by the police and used on them before the suspect gets killed.

But the biggest missing issue is that you can pretty much 3d print a gun, and mold your own bullets. i'm sure there are people who make their own guns what would stop them from selling them illegally? and of course the biggest problem any kind of tracking system or advanced design to disable or track guns is likely to be counter acted within 5 years.


So all the bans and controls wont really stop illegal guns anyway, so why try to complete an impossible task?
And i say this as a New Zealander from a country with a very low crime rate and gun population and i don't own one.
So it doesn't really effect me, but i've always found the ban guns now crowd as ignorant to reality as ban video games for causing violence or rock music for creating satanist crowds.

[Ghostpanther]

@Ghostpanther You're very obviously deflecting. It is also pretty obvious you don't really read things and just parrot a set of talking points.

1) Children in that study were in a household with gun owners. Trying to eyewash that away is disingenuous. You pick out one line of a quote, and completely fail to address why I even noted that.

2) Now go back and address the points I made instead of trying to do a magician's pass and say "look over there, Japan!" Those veterans weren't from the Japanese defense force, they were American veterans. Who died. By suicide. With a gun.

Here's a further look at guns and suicide: https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/gun...ss-statistics/

And you clearly are ignoring some facts yourself. You bring up suicide by using a firearm and like it is the fault of the access to firearms which causes it, but you ignore that Japan which has a higher rate of suicide and has very strict gun control. The issues with suicide are not the method chosen, but with the root cause of it.

If there are tens of millions of gun owners, which I am sure some also have childern ( lets be moderate and say it is in the millions who have childern ) and the death's in those households are from accidental use of a firearm or suicides, you do know the numbers are going to say they are a extremely small % of those. So back to what I said before. Most gun owners are responsible owners, because if it was not true, then those figures would show it.

Veterans, esp those coming back from a worthless war in the Middle East, are under extreme stress from their experiences over there and the real way to deal with it is to make the VA do it's damn job and help them. If the VA feels a veteran is not mentally fit to possess a firearm, then they need to document it, get a court order to stop them. Due process and all. That is how it is suppose to work here.

[Mayia]

It is a cult for sure. America's love for gun is like nowhere else in the world. They fail to realize making guns so accessible makes it accessible for others as well who shouldn't be having any. The paranoia to arm yourself just gets worse because other people have more and more guns too. The general culture just pushes them more and more to be acceptable in households, and you can thank the NRA and their powerful lobby to keep the trend going.

People would rather have dangerous mass-murder weapons available for all rather than ban them and keep kids safe from school shootings. They delude themselves saying "bad guys" can get guns even if they are illegal, but fail to realize most of the bad guys are mentally ill/unstable/arent connected with the mafia and probably would have a really hard time finding any gun at all if they were illegal.

In the end, a gun is a really drastic weapon. You'd have a better chance at survival if someone had a knife than if you both had guns, as the reaction time just isn't the same... Besides, most people won't carry guns on them nonstop, you can't just say "well they need to get guns and trained to defend themselves too".

10 seconds on google searching for the deaths by violence blows any complaint about the US having high gun crime because they have loads of guns, people are dying by their thousands in countries with more gun control and less.

- - - Updated - - -

And you clearly are ignoring some facts yourself. You bring up suicide by using a firearm and like it is the fault of the access to firearms which causes it, but you ignore that Japan which has a higher rate of suicide and has very strict gun control. The issues with suicide are not the method chosen, but with the root cause of it.

If there are tens of millions of gun owners, which I am sure some also have childern ( lets be moderate and say it is in the millions who have childern ) and the death's in those households are from accidental use of a firearm or suicides, you do know the numbers are going to say they are a extremely small % of those. So back to what I said before. Most gun owners are responsible owners, because if it was not true, then those figures would show it.

Veterans, esp those coming back from a worthless war in the Middle East, are under extreme stress from their experiences over there and the real way to deal with it is to make the VA do it's damn job and help them. If the VA feels a veteran is not mentally fit to possess a firearm, then they need to document it, get a court order to stop them. Due process and all. That is how it is suppose to work here.

Nice short and to the point, i always go off on tangents when i tell somebody how silly they are being.

[hakujinbakasama]

Just think of it as the Darwin Awards. We know that statistically, your gun is many, MANY, times more likely to be used against a member of your family than against an intruder. If you still want a gun after finding this out then it is probably in our best interest that you limit the spread of your genes ... by getting shot in the face by your 4 year old for example.

I'd really love to see this study and what rate they "guessed" as a measure of control.

[Theinquisition]

It is a cult for sure. America's love for gun is like nowhere else in the world. They fail to realize making guns so accessible makes it accessible for others as well who shouldn't be having any. The paranoia to arm yourself just gets worse because other people have more and more guns too. The general culture just pushes them more and more to be acceptable in households, and you can thank the NRA and their powerful lobby to keep the trend going.

People would rather have dangerous mass-murder weapons available for all rather than ban them and keep kids safe from school shootings. They delude themselves saying "bad guys" can get guns even if they are illegal, but fail to realize most of the bad guys are mentally ill/unstable/arent connected with the mafia and probably would have a really hard time finding any gun at all if they were illegal.

In the end, a gun is a really drastic weapon. You'd have a better chance at survival if someone had a knife than if you both had guns, as the reaction time just isn't the same... Besides, most people won't carry guns on them nonstop, you can't just say "well they need to get guns and trained to defend themselves too".

Cause banning something would get rid of it right, let me know when the meth and crack epidemic is over, I mean it's banned right, should just be a matter of time....any minute now

[hakujinbakasama]

There are just as many if not more anti-gun cultists as there are pro-gun cultists.

The primary difference between the two is one isn't advocating the removal of choice from the other.

It's like the vegetarian vs meat eaters argument. It's as asinine. I rarely see someone who passionately refuses to eat vegetables. Yet when confronted they generally boil down to hideous "all meat all the time" antics in some desire to offend the leafy. Either way, meat eaters aren't advocating the end to broccoli.

[Deathcries]

is communism on mmo-c becoming a cult?

been that way for a long time. At least on the five years I've been here.

[Rumzlug]

Cause banning something would get rid of it right, let me know when the meth and crack epidemic is over, I mean it's banned right, should just be a matter of time....any minute now

Yeah its totally ineffective. Look at all those people running around with fully automatic weapons.

[hakujinbakasama]

Yeah its totally ineffective. Look at all those people running around with fully automatic weapons.

Fully automatic weapons are a little different. They are banned from being sold to the open civilian market post 86. Those that existed are still able to be sold.

The difference here is that manufacturers didn't want to go to prison so they don't let them loose. Several major arrests or incidents have followed due to the attempt to convert semi auto weapons over. Wako stands as one of the most prolific.

[Theinquisition]

Yeah its totally ineffective. Look at all those people running around with fully automatic weapons.

There's not many in circulation to begin with.

There's 300 million firearms in circulation and 3d printing technology allows people to build many components of a firearm from their home with the right equipment.

Common sense dude, common sense.

[shadowmouse]

You bring up suicide by using a firearm and like it is the fault of the access to firearms which causes it

It really would help if you stop trying to put words into my mouth. Suicide is a problem. Firearms are a tool. They do not cause the suicide, nor did I say anything that someone actually bothering to read would take to mean that. Access to firearms does, however, give a suicidal person acting on impulse (I've linked things indicating it is often impulse for adults and children alike) a way to kill themselves efficiently.

but you ignore that Japan which has a higher rate of suicide and has very strict gun control. The issues with suicide are not the method chosen, but with the root cause of it.

And I disagree. Japan's problems are Japan's. I haven't asked a question about Japan, I've asked a question about America. Americans are, overwhelmingly, killing themselves with guns. Saying somewhere else, with mental health care problems, manages to have even more suicides is meaningless.

Root causes are important, but they are unlikely to be fixed quickly. Even if they are fixed, they may be replaced by other causes. That leaves better education about guns, safe storage, and just maybe choosing to go cold turkey on them under certain circumstances, as the tools we have available. For example, the VA apparently had plans to distribute free gun locks (don't know if they ever did or that got cut somewhere). The one interview I posted shows that each step to slow down an impulsive suicide reduces the odds of suicide by 10%.

Most is an expression of percentage. I'll opt out on that one. Children die, from suicide, by gun. You keep proving that those gun owners probably thought they were going to be the ones who made it through OK, but they didn't. You got lucky, I hope everyone here gets lucky, but more than four hundred families a year don't win that bet and the rates are going up.

As a percentage, however, it does appear that guns aren't particularly useful when put to the test: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/f...nse-gun-use-2/
Given the importance you would like to place on percentages, wouldn't it make more since to sell your guns and buy a bike?

did it factor in repeat suicide attempts?

How about you do a bit of your own research and maybe even try reading what you quoted before you post a reply. See that quote I used? See that last sentence? Joe-Bob, that's what it means, only 10% of those who weren't successful the first time *ever* go on to die by suicide.

As for the rest of your rambling, were there buzzwords you forgot to throw in randomly? I couldn't really tell, I think somehow you meant to say we are in danger from liberal, feminist, Islamic terrorists.

In fact, of those people who attempt suicide and survive, only about 10 percent end up dying from suicide.

but solutions aren't what you are looking for you just want guns gone

I'm going to regret this, none of you folks trying to stuff your words into my mouth ever even try, but here I go again ... OK, quote where I said that.