Remember when Genn Greymane didn't watch the Horde cinematic for the Broken Shore?

[Cosmic Janitor]

Misunderstanding or not, the end result is that Varian died because Horde retreated.

He would have died either way, because the horde was already overwhelmed and down for the count. He died because Gen should have sacrifced himself. He owed a great debt to Stormwind for betraying them in the past, he was the older one and Varian was his superior, in both royalty and military. Varian's death is on Greymane, the Coward.

[ornichi]

I so want to see boy king go from Priest to Paladin. He's 80% there in the BfA cinematic. Maybe take a pilgrimage to Uther's tomb, who sends him to Andorhal after they crush the Forsaken in Lorderon to meet with the ghost of Gavinrad and pick up his Libram of Compassion (fits Anduin's personality).

I'm all up for a prolongued questline which gives a chance to experience his development from a boy to a king. Some may call me alliance fanboy, but imo his character promises the most intersting storyline in wow.

- - - Updated - - -

It's like your kid dies because he played ball on the highway! Who should you blame? The truck driver or you?

Let me rephrase it for you. "It's like your kid dies because he played ball at home and then mad driver, who killed dozens of your family and fiends, comes to your house to kill you and ocassionally kills your son who is valiant enough to give his life for his people." So yea, I would still blame the driver.

[Shakou]

That.
Why can't people admit it?
Tyrande lost a lot of ground during Cataclysm against Hord and she doesn't enrage like a sick dog!

I will always repeat: Genn's son is dead because he was reckless, he shouldn't be on that battleground but he chose to fight. He jumped in front of his father to take the arrow, Sylvannas was aiming Genn!
And the grey wolf is blaming her?
It's like your kid dies because he played ball on the highway! Who should you blame? The truck driver or you?

Bad parenting, bad quest for revenge, bad leadership. Genn Greymane, bad for the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

No one said Sylvannas meant to kill Liam. Doesn't mean she didn't kill Liam.

Dude can you like go away and give it up already? You said she brutally murdered his son, killing him on accident is not brutally murdering his son. End of story end of discussion. No longer responding to your posts and you're on my ignore list.

Maybe try posting things worth reading.

[Avar ize]

No he died because there wasn't a mage with mass teleport.

Yeah, He died cause Blizzard forgot that Jaina is there....

[Halyon]

You may recall that the army did not stay. Varian did so the army could retreat. Heroes do that, you know.

Possibly. We don't know the alternative. He still chose to die. Heroic or not, he went to his death on his own accord.

[Crawclaw]

I think the real uber villain here is Genn. Let's get some things straight. The Horde sounded their retreat, blasting a horn in the process to sound the retreat. Genn, a fucking werewolf who can obviously hear better than others (fucking doggo ears!) actually turns to the Horde as the horn sounds. Instead of telling his king "the Horde sounded the retreat, we should do the same!" he instead decides to pursue personal vendetta and claim the Horde betrays them.
Then, during the escape, Varian jumps down to stop the Fel Reaver. Sure, he stabbed it in the head, but again, Genn is a fucking werewolf with increased strength and agility, and could have easily saved his king by jumping past Varian to land on the Reavers head and do some damage to the eye sockets (probably not a killing blow but enough to distract).
After he gets back to the Alliance safe areas, he plants himself next to Anduin to start planting ideas in his head about how the Horde acted cowardly and his father died a hero.
In a nutshell, Genn covered up the fact the Horde sounded a retreat to play off as a betrayal, he sacrificed his king instead of himself so Varian could be a martyr to Genn's personal vendetta (sparking new anger that the Horde "killed" their king), and then Weasley his way to Anduin's side to manipulate him as much as possible into a war sparked by Genn's hated.
Whether you support Horde or Alli, Genn is the true villain of recent lore.

I'd say that both Genn and Sylvanas are villains in their own right. They're both keeping the war alive for ultimately selfish reasons. The villain isn't the Alliance or Horde, but both.

[Zoldor]

The Alliance had no way of knowing how bad things were. From his view everything was fine, the combined armies were winning the fight and then the Horde calmly withdrew from battle. Seriously the archers shouting out something reflecting the gravity of the situation would have clued the Alliance in. Seriously just a bad job on Blizzards part to force a conflict.

Yes, cause that horn couldn't mean anything else. And that Giant Fel Reaver, and the endless amount of demons pouring out, other than that things were looking so good. It is bad writing all around. It needed clarity big time, and if the Alliance really believes the horde just walked away, then either they don't have spies, don't know anyone on the horde, or generally just want to fight over the conflict at the shore.

Honestly, Blizzard is best off never referencing the shore scene again due to how badly written and glaringly obvious no one would think one betrayed the other. The only reference should be that Varian and Vol'Jin died there.

[Shakou]

Yes, cause that horn couldn't mean anything else.

Actually sounding a horn to signal retreat was a standard military thing for over 1000 years, going back at least to the Crusades.

There is absolutely no question what that sound meant in that context, it is literally sounded and they retreat.

You are right about bad writing all around though, and many others have brought up other aspects of this that don't add up.

Not the least of which is that you discover in the Rogue Order Hall Campaign that the whole Broken Shore attack was a carefully laid out trap and that the Legion actually could have killed them all at any moment basically, basically the Alliance had bad intel and chose to act on it.

Either way I am not so sure that Blizzard does not fully intend that Genn Greymane is a villain in this story. I think most of us can agree the faction war being re-ignited is dumb, but I personally feel Blizzard is well aware of this, and while it remains to be seen whether or not they'll nail it I do think they intend to turn the tables on the Alliance so to speak.

I mean if I were writing this thing I would want you to think the Sylvannas is the person most responsible for the war too, that's the best place to build a story from where she's at least in part redeemed and the real bad actors are brought to light.

[LordyLordy]

He would have died either way, because the horde was already overwhelmed and down for the count. He died because Gen should have sacrifced himself. He owed a great debt to Stormwind for betraying them in the past, he was the older one and Varian was his superior, in both royalty and military. Varian's death is on Greymane, the Coward.

My point is, we will NEVER know what would have happened if Horde would have stayed. Maybe everyone would have died, maybe a magical pixie would have descended from the heavens to burn Legion to dust. It’s just a huge ’what if’ scenario. What did happen from Alliance pov, is that Horde retreated and without backup Alliance fell into a trap.

[Hitei]

That.
Why can't people admit it?
Tyrande lost a lot of ground during Cataclysm against Hord and she doesn't enrage like a sick dog!

I will always repeat: Genn's son is dead because he was reckless, he shouldn't be on that battleground but he chose to fight. He jumped in front of his father to take the arrow, Sylvannas was aiming Genn!
And the grey wolf is blaming her?
It's like your kid dies because he played ball on the highway! Who should you blame? The truck driver or you?

Tyrande lost ground in Ashenvale, Genn lost his son, capital city and country. Why don't you check back in with how she feels about the Horde after losing Teldrassil.

If you're walking on the street with your child, and a drunk driver drives up onto the sidewalk where your kid pushes you out of the way and gets hit by the car, protip: It's the drunk driver's fault.

[Eazy]

Victory or RUN AWAY!

Pathetic horde.

No he would have died anyway as would everyone else.

Don't think so.

[Kiri]

Bad parenting, bad quest for revenge, bad leadership. Genn Greymane, bad for the Alliance.

- - - Updated - - -


Dude can you like go away and give it up already? You said she brutally murdered his son, killing him on accident is not brutally murdering his son. End of story end of discussion. No longer responding to your posts and you're on my ignore list.

Maybe try posting things worth reading.

Um, not to be splitting hairs here but this argument strikes me as weird. Why is it less of a brutal murder because it hit someone other than the intended target? I mean that makes it sound like Genn is not justified in being angry at Sylvanas over her killing his son, but Liam would be justified in being angry at her over killing his father. It's not like she was shooting at Genn to intimidate him and was missing on purpose, hitting Liam only because he accidentally caught it trying to save Genn.

I mean, I personally wouldn't call it brutally murder, since it was during a battle in times of war, and both Liam and Genn were Sylvanas' enemies, so the difference is marginal. Just confused why the kill itself is less severe just because it hit someone else.

In response to your original point though, you noted that the Forsaken did not attack until after the shattering. If you refer to the Cataclysm, then that is incorrect. The Worgen starting experience has Duskhaven under attack by the Forsaken after the main city is lost, but before the Cataclysm fully hits the land. That's why there are tons of Forsaken around when you rescue the drowning sailors.

[THEORACLE64]

You have no proof of who burns Teldrassil.

Blizzcon interviews, yes we do. The Horde burns Teldrassil so the Alliance retaliates because of it. We don't know WHO specifically burned Teldrassil, whether it was on Sylvanas command or if her new Council went and did it, but it was from the Horde side.

If you're gunna troll at least do ya research.

[Eazy]

What you think is irrelevant.

Probably. But it's still more valid than your opinion.

[gcsmith]

That.
Why can't people admit it?
Tyrande lost a lot of ground during Cataclysm against Hord and she doesn't enrage like a sick dog!

I will always repeat: Genn's son is dead because he was reckless, he shouldn't be on that battleground but he chose to fight. He jumped in front of his father to take the arrow, Sylvannas was aiming Genn!
And the grey wolf is blaming her?
It's like your kid dies because he played ball on the highway! Who should you blame? The truck driver or you?

That analogy is terrible. The correct analogy is "someone breaks into your house and attempts to murder you, instead your son sacrifices himself to save you." That doesn't stop Sylvanas being an home invading murderer.

- - - Updated - - -

Um, not to be splitting hairs here but this argument strikes me as weird. Why is it less of a brutal murder because it hit someone other than the intended target? I mean that makes it sound like Genn is not justified in being angry at Sylvanas over her killing his son, but Liam would be justified in being angry at her over killing his father. It's not like she was shooting at Genn to intimidate him and was missing on purpose, hitting Liam only because he accidentally caught it trying to save Genn.

I mean, I personally wouldn't call it brutally murder, since it was during a battle in times of war, and both Liam and Genn were Sylvanas' enemies, so the difference is marginal. Just confused why the kill itself is less severe just because it hit someone else.

In response to your original point though, you noted that the Forsaken did not attack until after the shattering. If you refer to the Cataclysm, then that is incorrect. The Worgen starting experience has Duskhaven under attack by the Forsaken after the main city is lost, but before the Cataclysm fully hits the land. That's why there are tons of Forsaken around when you rescue the drowning sailors.

More importantly, being before or after the cataclysm doesn't change the fact she invaded a foreign peaceful nation and murdered its people with a banned WMD.

[Shakou]

Why is it less of a brutal murder because it hit someone other than the intended target?

Because it's literally not murder, do you speak English or use google translator for your posts?

No offense but A) this was war B) it wasn't premeditated and planned or unlawful, it happened in the middle of a battle.

That analogy is terrible. The correct analogy is "someone breaks into your house and attempts to murder you, instead your son sacrifices himself to save you." That doesn't stop Sylvanas being an home invading murderer.

mur·der
ˈmərdər/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Holy fuck shit, learn English please. Not only Ignorant but also loud and proud about it. Good lord. The act of killing someone in and of itself isn't murder.

The fact I even have to explain this to you means your posts aren't worth responding to.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzcon interviews, yes we do. The Horde burns Teldrassil so the Alliance retaliates because of it. We don't know WHO specifically burned Teldrassil, whether it was on Sylvanas command or if her new Council went and did it, but it was from the Horde side.

If you're gunna troll at least do ya research.

First off calling someone a troll is actually a violation of the TOS on these forums so I've reported you and you can probably enjoy your ban any minute now. 2nd this is my thread, I am not "trolling my own thread" here. Third what you said was said in Blizzard interviews was not fucking said.

They did not verbatim state that Sylvannas or the Horde burns down Teldrassil. What was stated did not in fact mention who burned Teldrassil at all, just that the Alliance attacks Undercity in retaliation and that this takes place after the concept art images seen of Sylvannas watching Teldrassil burn.

I realize you live in this alterative reality where exact statements do not matter, but as a matter of what is verbatim word for word stated is what matters, not what some random person on the internet thinks is implied.

You're welcome to your opinion and all but opinions aren't facts.

[frogger237]

The real problem with the broken shore is that all the Alliance could see is the archers retreating nonchalantly like they were a couple of old people spending the day at the mall. They should have either got the fuck out of there faster or stayed and covered the Alliance a bit until they needed to flee at something other then a half frozen snails pace. Walking away slowly like that makes it look more like your betraying someone then running for your lives.

[gcsmith]

Because it's literally not murder, do you speak English or use google translator for your posts?

No offense but A) this was war B) it wasn't premeditated and planned or unlawful, it happened in the middle of a battle.



mur·der
ˈmərdər/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Holy fuck shit, learn English please. Not only Ignorant but also loud and proud about it. Good lord. The act of killing someone in and of itself isn't murder.

The fact I even have to explain this to you means your posts aren't worth responding to.

- - - Updated - - -


First off calling someone a troll is actually a violation of the TOS on these forums so I've reported you and you can probably enjoy your ban any minute now. 2nd this is my thread, I am not "trolling my own thread" here. Third what you said was said in Blizzard interviews was not fucking said.

They did not verbatim state that Sylvannas or the Horde burns down Teldrassil. What was stated did not in fact mention who burned Teldrassil at all, just that the Alliance attacks Undercity in retaliation and that this takes place after the concept art images seen of Sylvannas watching Teldrassil burn.

I realize you live in this alterative reality where exact statements do not matter, but as a matter of what is verbatim word for word stated is what matters, not what some random person on the internet thinks is implied.

You're welcome to your opinion and all but opinions aren't facts.

You know you can't just declare war and claim every killing is legit right? Nor does that actually absolve Sylvanas of any actual blame. The fact you think Genn has no reason to be angry over the death of his son when an undead monster walked into his land which had left them alone for several years by that point probably means your logic is out of whack.

Also, I hardly think the killing of Genns son was unpremeditated. The invasion of Gilneas was planned, and therefore all killing was premeditated, and since the Gilneans were a neutral party, it was an unlawful invasion. They weren't at war with Gilneas.

- - - Updated - - -

The real problem with the broken shore is that all the Alliance could see is the archers retreating nonchalantly like they were a couple of old people spending the day at the mall. They should have either got the fuck out of there faster or stayed and covered the Alliance a bit until they needed to flee at something other then a half frozen snails pace. Walking away slowly like that makes it look more like your betraying someone then running for your lives.

Thats the point, from the alliance perspective it looked like the horn was a signal to an organized retreat and a plan to massacre a bunch of alliance troops in a trap. The fact forsaken had actually done that previously (yes, a rogue faction, but alliance leaders still have precedence for this thing), and the horde have previously broken peace treaties or neutrality pacts to help get horde leaders WMD's and the horde had previously used a critical fight to murder alliance troops (corpse gate in Icecrown) suggest that the Alliance have literally no reason to assume this was not the case.

"But Sylvannas saved Varian on the ship..." is not seen by most alliance forces, and he does not live to spread the tale afterwards. To all intents and purposes, the alliance observe a orderly withdrawal with not even a single shout of "Hey, sorry we need to leave cus no name bats are killing us while you take on a tonne of legion named generals." Yet the scenario proved they could shout to each other.

[Kiri]

Because it's literally not murder, do you speak English or use google translator for your posts?

No offense but A) this was war B) it wasn't premeditated and planned or unlawful, it happened in the middle of a battle.



mur·der
ˈmərdər/
noun
noun: murder; plural noun: murders
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Holy fuck shit, learn English please. Not only Ignorant but also loud and proud about it. Good lord. The act of killing someone in and of itself isn't murder.

The fact I even have to explain this to you means your posts aren't worth responding to.

You are pretty rude, given that I agreed that it would not really be considered murder due to it being war times in the midst of battle. That is what the paragraph after the one you quoted is about. My point was that it hitting another target shouldn't make it any better or worse, no matter if it is called murder.

[Stormspellz]

They still didn't tell the Alliance they were retreating

ya giant horn of "retreat" isn't telling them .....