No half-measures - just perfect xpack

[Sialina]

Is most cases, but in this case it absolutely requires gymnastics.

In lore, there are ridable beasts that can fly, this was the case even in vanilla wow and I'm pretty sure even before that. Why would the players characters for some reason not have access to those beasts? Frankly when they take away flight it's immersion breaking.... There has to be a reason to take it away.. In wrath for example we had cold weather flight being needed... was it a stupid pointless reason? Yes! Was it a reason? Yes.

So what reasons, thematically would you suggest for why the heroes of azeroth would be unable to flying beasts?
I'm not asking to be an ass I'm genuinely curious as to why you think we wouldn't be able to... Because if there is no reason, there's no reason for it not to be in game.. In my opinion, flying, particularly dynamic flight enhances immersion to a very large degree.

we can also teleport instantly, why would we walk or fly? Jaina can also summon a floating warship, why would we use swords? We also have the Draenei spaceship and the legion spaceships, technology beyond what our currently world has, why would we bother with animals?
Lets put them all into the game, we teleport instantly to where we want to go and nuke from orbit, sounds like a great game

[Lynexia]

we can also teleport instantly, why would we walk or fly? Jaina can also summon a floating warship, why would we use swords? We also have the Draenei spaceship and the legion spaceships, technology beyond what our currently world has, why would we bother with animals?
Lets put them all into the game, we teleport instantly to where we want to go and nuke from orbit, sounds like a great game

1. Becuase not everyone is a mage or always have a mage at our disposal and thus we can't ALL teleport instantly.
2. Because jaina has her own life and can't be used for everything, everywhere all at once.
3. Because we the players are not currently commanders of a spaceship, and in addition I'm pretty sure there's only 1 or 2 of those that currently exist in lore and they are not simple or easy to make.

So now that I have taken the time to answer your questions please do me the courtesy of answering mine, without the useless hyperbole this time please if you don't mind.

[Shadowferal]

Flying just means you can quit sooner than later.
It certainly makes the artistry of creating a zone easier since it means less detail is needed.

[Sialina]

1. Becuase not everyone is a mage or always have a mage at our disposal and thus we can't ALL teleport instantly.
2. Because jaina has her own life and can't be used for everything, everywhere all at once.
3. Because we the players are not currently commanders of a spaceship, and in addition I'm pretty sure there's only 1 or 2 of those that currently exist in lore and they are not simple or easy to make.

So now that I have taken the time to answer your questions please do me the courtesy of answering mine, without the useless hyperbole this time please if you don't mind.

A reason can be created just like you just did.

1. Your current flyers are scared of flying in that new environment.
2. There is a hot/cold wind that clogs up their wings so they can't fly until they had practice.
3. There is a curse resting over the land that makes anything not native to there take flight die, we solve that curse as we've explored the area and understand it properly.
4. We are on a new plane/new planet, gravity is different, your flyers need to get used to it before they dare to carry you around with them.


Oh, and to counter your arguments:

1. We are the commander of the alliance/horde, the most important character, we'll have personal mages if the story is supposed to make any sense.
2. If the world is under threat, Jaina will come along with her boat or she will be executed, we decided that as the commander.
3. That's okay, since orbiting a planet like earth takes around 90 minutes, and you can't be in space without going orbital velocity, so they'll have time to help us nuke whatever target we want, at least once every 90 minutes.

[Lynexia]

A reason can be created just like you just did.

1. Your current flyers are scared of flying in that new environment.
2. There is a hot/cold wind that clogs up their wings so they can't fly until they had practice.
3. There is a curse resting over the land that makes anything not native to there take flight die, we solve that curse as we've explored the area and understand it properly.
4. We are on a new plane/new planet, gravity is different, your flyers need to get used to it before they dare to carry you around with them.


Oh, and to counter your arguments:

1. We are the commander of the alliance/horde, the most important character, we'll have personal mages if the story is supposed to make any sense.
2. If the world is under threat, Jaina will come along with her boat or she will be executed, we decided that as the commander.
3. That's okay, since orbiting a planet like earth takes around 90 minutes, and you can't be in space without going orbital velocity, so they'll have time to help us nuke whatever target we want, at least once every 90 minutes.

I'm super glad you're not a game developer.

[MrLachyG]

A thousand threads to necro and y'all chose this

it's only a few months old, that is hardly a necro.

- - - Updated - - -

After getting first TWW Alpha info I can say, that while there are even more things done right way, than we expected, TWW is still full of half-measures, i.e. still not perfect.

1. the game isn't in its final state
2. no matter what they delivered, you would never call it perfect.

[Sialina]

I'm super glad you're not a game developer.

So it's convenient to follow the lore when it does what you want it to, but inconvenient when it doesn't? Have you ever thought that maybe it's your taste? Take inventory of all the games you have ever played, now count how many of those games let you fly over every single obstacle, next, post a list here.
If flying over the entire game was the superior decision, every game would do it, you would fly straight to the bosses in Dark souls, Witcher, mass effect, Zelda, etc, but you don't, you need to fight your way to the objective.

I agree that always fighting your way to the objective after having done it already would lessen enjoyment, that is why flying should be unlocked, and looking at every single game in existence, it seems game developers agree with me, not you.

[Lynexia]

So it's convenient to follow the lore when it does what you want it to, but inconvenient when it doesn't? Have you ever thought that maybe it's your taste? Take inventory of all the games you have ever played, now count how many of those games let you fly over every single obstacle, next, post a list here.
If flying over the entire game was the superior decision, every game would do it, you would fly straight to the bosses in Dark souls, Witcher, mass effect, Zelda, etc, but you don't, you need to fight your way to the objective.

I agree that always fighting your way to the objective after having done it already would lessen enjoyment, that is why flying should be unlocked, and looking at every single game in existence, it seems game developers agree with me, not you.

Gameplay > Lore but in this case both are being followed.

Being grounded in wow was never fun or immersive, and yes that's my opinion. If you believe that being grounded immerses you better just don't use the flying mount. Taking it away from others because you can't resist the temptation of better gameplay at the expense of your own immersion is just selfish. And to be frank if you have issues resisting that temptation all you're really doing is proving yourself wrong. If you're being immersed so much more on foot, shouldn't you not even think of your mount when doing a quest... since you know... high immersion levels.

How you ever tried to fly just close to the ground? It's immersive af... And like is there a reason we shouldn't be able to avoid threats to get to our objective? Do you think having countless needless encounters somehow enhances a quest? it really doesn't do what you think it does.

[Sialina]

Gameplay > Lore but in this case both are being followed.

Being grounded in wow was never fun or immersive, and yes that's my opinion. If you believe that being grounded immerses you better just don't use the flying mount. Taking it away from others because you can't resist the temptation of better gameplay at the expense of your own immersion is just selfish. And to be frank if you have issues resisting that temptation all you're really doing is proving yourself wrong. If you're being immersed so much more on foot, shouldn't you not even think of your mount when doing a quest... since you know... high immersion levels.

How you ever tried to fly just close to the ground? It's immersive af... And like is there a reason we shouldn't be able to avoid threats to get to our objective? Do you think having countless needless encounters somehow enhances a quest? it really doesn't do what you think it does.

Again, if it wasn't immersive, if the superior way to travel was to skip over content, every game would be doing it, or at least a couple of games.
The problem is laid out in my original post you quoted, once you've gotten used to something being easy, it can't go back to being hard, the genie is out of the bottle.

Of course not flying is not an option, if it was a single player game, sure, but you are playing with others, and they are not going to sit around waiting for you. If you had a button next to every quest that took you straight to the mob you needed to kill or the object you needed to loot, you wouldn't use flying, you'd use that.

[Nederbelg]

Again, if it wasn't immersive, if the superior way to travel was to skip over content, every game would be doing it, or at least a couple of games.
The problem is laid out in my original post you quoted, once you've gotten used to something being easy, it can't go back to being hard, the genie is out of the bottle.

Of course not flying is not an option, if it was a single player game, sure, but you are playing with others, and they are not going to sit around waiting for you. If you had a button next to every quest that took you straight to the mob you needed to kill or the object you needed to loot, you wouldn't use flying, you'd use that.

If the suprior way to play games was to raid, all games would have raids. Yet they don't and WoW does.

What works for one game, might not work for another.

You do not like flying, that is fine. But that doe snot mean it is bad for the game.

[Sialina]

If the suprior way to play games was to raid, all games would have raids. Yet they don't and WoW does.

What works for one game, might not work for another.

You do not like flying, that is fine. But that doe snot mean it is bad for the game.

Nearly every MMO has raids, what are you talking about? Even some non mmos have raids, like ARPGs and looter shooters and gacha games with guild boss battles etc, also single player games have simulated raids where your party goes up against a single tough boss monster.

Lets be realistic here, you dislike questing, I do too, you think the solution is to skip questing by flying over it, I think the solution is paying more attention to that part of the game.

[Mysterymask]

Nearly every MMO has raids, what are you talking about? Even some non mmos have raids, like ARPGs and looter shooters and gacha games with guild boss battles etc, also single player games have simulated raids where your party goes up against a single tough boss monster.

Lets be realistic here, you dislike questing, I do too, you think the solution is to skip questing by flying over it, I think the solution is paying more attention to that part of the game.

I think he means games in general....
like it would be silly for Devil May Cry 6 to have raids it doesn't make sense

BUT then again Dragon Ball Fighterz and Pokemon made raids work for weird genres so

[Nederbelg]

Nearly every MMO has raids, what are you talking about? Even some non mmos have raids, like ARPGs and looter shooters and gacha games with guild boss battles etc, also single player games have simulated raids where your party goes up against a single tough boss monster.

Lets be realistic here, you dislike questing, I do too, you think the solution is to skip questing by flying over it, I think the solution is paying more attention to that part of the game.

You didn't specify MMO's, you used the broad "all games have this" which is (even when you mean only MMO's) no argument to use to judge game features.

Each game is different, wow has flying other games don't.

And I do not mind questing at all, it is what I do most often in the game. What I do mind is having to walk from a quest back to the quest giver, then to the flight point. Then walk from the destination flight point to the next questgiver and then walk to the quest. The back to the quest giver etc. All for your feeling of "immersion".
When I level alts I rush them as fast as I can to the level they learn flying (I never understood why that is still a thing) so I can fly to and from quests instead of walking all around the mountain or the zone to get to them.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Nearly every MMO has raids, what are you talking about? Even some non mmos have raids, like ARPGs and looter shooters and gacha games with guild boss battles etc, also single player games have simulated raids where your party goes up against a single tough boss monster.

Lets be realistic here, you dislike questing, I do too, you think the solution is to skip questing by flying over it, I think the solution is paying more attention to that part of the game.

Just for the record, I think you are right on basically everything lol.

Flying is the genie that was let out of the bottle. The new system is much better than the old, but it definitely isn't something the devs would do again given the choice. This is a pretty widely shared viewpoint among developers.

[Nederbelg]

Just for the record, I think you are right on basically everything lol.

Flying is the genie that was let out of the bottle. The new system is much better than the old, but it definitely isn't something the devs would do again given the choice. This is a pretty widely shared viewpoint among developers.

I am pretty sure there would be a lot less players if we still had to walk or use ground mounts only.

Do you have a source for this widely shared viewpoint?

[Ielenia]

How does that even make sense? A proper RPG should allow all race-class combos so one can properly ROLE PLAY as they may choose. More options = better for the player and rpg elements that those combos can create. FF14 and ESO allow all races to be any class and I've yet to see their players tearing down the place cuz of "muh immersion"

"Roleplay" does not mean your character in a vacuum. It also means immersing yourself in the fictional world and its cultures, and it can be immersion-breaking that dilutes the flavor the game has. It's about the cultures of the many races. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to make a gnome shaman because shamanism is not part of the gnomes' culture. A lightforged draenei shouldn't be a warlock, because pacts with demons isn't part of their culture. Mag'har orcs shouldn't be warlocks considering their entire story in WoD. Etc, etc.

"Man I really wanted to like Baldur's Gate 3, but them allowing Gnomes to be barbarians just killed it for me". Said no one ever.

That wasn't my argument, though. It's just your strawman.