Do you want a dungeon finder in classic+?

[crusadernero]

Go for it but no instant teleportation.

This is the way. Also, add summon stones and keep it servers only.

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You seem to be under the impression that people only ever quit because of game design changes. This couldn't be further from the truth. We know this because we actually do have a first-hand account from the lead WoW dev who worked on the game from WotLK through MoP and is responsible for a lot of the QoL stuff that you champion:

“Unsubbing is often seen as the only 'real' way by players to express their displeasure in a way that affects the devs. However, one thing I've never known is how devs themselves react to this. Do you double down? Scrap plans? Abandon the game?”

GC: There are a couple of different ways to answer this.

Developers do care if you stop playing their game and they want to know why. However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” (I’m basing that on having seen a lot of data - it’s not super open to debate.)

Dropping a game because of a specific design change (despite what you might read on forums / Reddit) is actually pretty rare. I know it happens, but if you’re stack ranking the reasons why people quit, those specific responses end up being so far down the list that it is hard for a development team to take actionable feedback.

This is to say that even if Blizzard did exactly what you think is needed to get the game back on track, there's no guarantee that these are the changes that are necessary to "save" it and, in most situations, people stopped playing for reasons which had absolutely nothing to do with these features.

Yeah, this is probably close to the truth. I mean, most games we play have game design features that we dislike/are missing, but in general if you like the game you like the game. Meaning you will keep playing even though its not perfect in every way(not many games are). I think its highly common that people just get bored of said game(s), dont have time or dont have anyone to play with.

Heck, alot of us have played wow for soon 20 years and the game has never been perfect. Many are even playing more than two versions of wow were neither are perfect. If you like a game, you'll play it and enjoy it despite what its missing. If you dislike a game, it probably dont matter what the devs do, its already over.

[Squigglyo]

This is to say that even if Blizzard did exactly what you think is needed to get the game back on track, there's no guarantee that these are the changes that are necessary to "save" it and, in most situations, people stopped playing for reasons which had absolutely nothing to do with these features.

By the exact same logic, adding RDF wouldnt cause people to quit then either.

[Cyclone Jack]

The only way I would want to see any form of Dungeon Finder in a Classic+ would be if it was limited to the server you were on, and it did not teleport anyone anywhere. If you want to teleport people there, use the Summoning Stone outside the dungeon, that's what it was designed for. It would just be an improved Group Finder, and nothing more.

[Orby]

Only if the dungeon finder only helps you find a group. I don't like the 'teleport you to the dungeon' part. Still let people make their own way there.

[Relapses]

By the exact same logic, adding RDF wouldnt cause people to quit then either.

Brother, I mentioned this to counter your argument that somehow the RDF would stop players from quitting. I've already said multiple times that if Blizzard wants to add it, I'm fine as long as a version without remains for the people who prefer it not to be in the game. What isn't clear -- and likely never will be -- is the certainty that you have about this being a net positive. Even the results of this poll are split down the middle and most of the people who want the RDF want it with caveats which would make it something very different from what we know. This idea that the version of the game including RDF is sugar plums and lollipops exists only in your head.

[PenguinChan]

And I literally point that facts on the ground contradict. You could've taken a single minute to process that your opinion might be wrong.

If you honestly believe this it speaks volumes as to how stubborn people can be about the internet changing from the 90s, let alone 2004 or even the early 2010's. You do you, I'll keep being social with randoms and enjoying my time in Classic or Retail while people bicker about the wrong things and wonder why nothing changes lmao.

[Yriel]

Y
Developers do care if you stop playing their game and they want to know why. However, for games like WoW and LoL, the answers are almost always “I have less time to play now (job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” (I’m basing that on having seen a lot of data - it’s not super open to debate.)

So in a game with a bad player retention rate over most of its lifespan, in a game where the majority of players didn't even reach max level GC wants to tell me that basically everyone loved the game but just couldn't continue due to job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” ? I can hardly believe that.
He probably talks about a specific part of the playerbase quitting and not the whole playerbase. I'm willing to bet money that globally most players stopped playing because they don't enjoy it anymore or tried it because of the hype and it wasn't their type of game.

[Relapses]

So in a game with a bad player retention rate over most of its lifespan, in a game where the majority of players didn't even reach max level GC wants to tell me that basically everyone loved the game but just couldn't continue due to job/school/family” and “My friends don’t play anymore.” ? I can hardly believe that.
He probably talks about a specific part of the playerbase quitting and not the whole playerbase. I'm willing to bet money that globally most players stopped playing because they don't enjoy it anymore or tried it because of the hype and it wasn't their type of game.

Is WoW's retention really that bad? There's nothing to compare WoW to because it's performed better than literally any other subscription-based MMO out there by a magnitude of about 10 times. Even at its worst -- losing 5 million subs in a single quarter -- that's about 4 million more subs than any other sub-based MMO has ever had. Moreover, I don't think he was implying people "loved" the game, just that it wasn't specific design choices which led to them quitting. In most of these situations, the game could have been the Sistine Chapel of MMOs and these players would have quit anyway because they were just, you know, moving on with their lives.

There's this particularly annoying argument that I see pop up time and time again whenever the topic of retention comes up and it's that if Blizzard had just made the version of the game that whatever poster thinks is best that no player would ever quit the game and it's perfectly normal for people to pay $15/mo to play a game for 20-plus years at a time. This doesn't line up with reality and is often the result of a player trying to use improving retention to prop up their own ideas. (Kinda like the guy I quoted did, over and over again.)

[Yriel]

Is WoW's retention really that bad?

Blizzard said that themselves multiple times in the past. Don't know if its still that way today but it certainly was when GC was with Blizz. WoW lived off its gigantic hype and even though apparently the majority of players don't even play a char to max level there are enough new players coming in to keep the sub numbers stable or even raise them.
That was always a problem for Blizz and thats why they changed the new player experience so often.

[Relapses]

Blizzard said that themselves multiple times in the past. Don't know if its still that way today but it certainly was when GC was with Blizz. WoW lived off its gigantic hype and even though apparently the majority of players don't even play a char to max level there are enough new players coming in to keep the sub numbers stable or even raise them.
That was always a problem for Blizz and thats why they changed the new player experience so often.

You kinda missed the thrust of my argument there. "Bad retention" is an impossible metric for WoW to define since its insane hype generated tons of tourist players and it's impossible to know if their eventual departure was a result of game design, people moving on with their lives or any number of impossible-to-define circumstances. WoW has no contemporaries so we really can't compare its early retention problems to anything else. That's what GC was getting at with his answer: Players want easy answers for why people don't stay subbed and they want that answer to align perfectly with their opinion for the best way to design WoW. But the reality isn't that simple and while it's convenient (for players) to blame design choices that definitely isn't the case for a majority of people who quit.

[Elifu]

I'm mixed on it. The problem is people find other ways to artificially implement it anyway.

[Akka]

If you honestly believe this it speaks volumes as to how stubborn people can be about the internet changing from the 90s, let alone 2004 or even the early 2010's. You do you, I'll keep being social with randoms and enjoying my time in Classic or Retail while people bicker about the wrong things and wonder why nothing changes lmao.

Or you're just blind and can't notice huge differences that led to big debates in 2010. But as you said, you do you, if you're blissfully unaware of what so many people notice and prefers to think that others are stubborn instead, well, whatever flatters your ego I guess.

[PenguinChan]

Or you're just blind and can't notice huge differences that led to big debates in 2010. But as you said, you do you, if you're blissfully unaware of what so many people notice and prefers to think that others are stubborn instead, well, whatever flatters your ego I guess.

Or I'm just older and realize a lot of people who think these tools are the problem probably don't understand our lives have changed since 2004. People don't have a reason to be social if they can get it elsewhere, automated tools be damned. Why do you think Classic when it came back had a lot of these types of players even in normal grouping?

They didn't just fucking, sprout out of the god damned ground like pikmin post automated tools lol. This shit is learned behavior. If you could nuke things like social media and discord, and bring us back to the early days of the internet you'd see a forced social playerbase again. Once people weren't forced and confined together, they learned to get their 'kick' elsewhere.

WoW no longer became a social game, and it just so happened to be around the same time as the RDF tool came about. Can the tool reinforce unsocial behavior? Sure, it's convenient. Is it the reason people are this way? Fuck no lmao. That shit is bonkers logic.

[Akka]

And yet despite all your spam, the difference between "before automated tools" and after was stark and seen by people, both in 2010 and in 2024.
So yeah, you're just blind and prefers to make up scenarios in your mind where you're wiser, and just can't handle a reality check.
But waste of time, if you're immune to notice things in reality then trying to use facts with you won't go anywhere.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Specifically for Season of Discovery, no, I'm fine with traveling to a dungeon if I absolutely have to. I would take the option of having summoning stones activated outside of the dungeon, though. The "portal-summoning-industrial complex" holds too much power in SoD.