Casual players dominate WoW, yet game is still focused on esports?

[Eapoe]

The last additional boss was in Throne of Thunder 11 years ago. And there's only been 3 of them. How out of touch are you?

Pretty sure he also forgets that ToT was why Blizz started reducing the difficulty curve as many groups had to purposely wipe to get determination stacks to outdo the mechanics.

[Ielenia]

I even talked about mercenary squads OR casual gamer guilds.

And yet you still lumped both in the same category as "toxic min-maxers"

Progression guilds are mercenary squads, no matter if you dislike that. And i will continue to call it that. No matter how much you disagree.

They're not. And calling them that not only makes you a liar who treats their own hyperbole as if they're the norm, but completely undermines your overall point in this discussion.

I will not play with the typical toxic "gogogo" gamer in world of warcraft.

And yet you still eagerly engage with the LFD tool. That aside, literally no one is telling you to join those groups, as people keep telling you to join casual guilds whose pace more similarly matches yours.

I will never cater to blizzards meritocracy.

You don't cater to Blizzard's vision for their own game, but you want Blizzard to cater to your vision for their game? Arrogant much?

Well, i just ignored you calling me an asshole. That is the best way to handle your personal attacks. You know, personal attacks only work if you talk to someone you know. I as a complete stranger to you think it is amusing, and it is a bad testament for your manners.

And again you completely dodge the point of the argument.

It is epidemic.

They are the norm.

It's not epidemic, and they're not the norm. The majority of players in WoW are not 'minmaxers' nor do they have the 'gogogo' mentality. Your argument here is akin to meeting a mexican immigrant and then conclude that means everyone in the United States speaks english with a heavy spanish accent.

But min maxing only matters in a meritocracy.

You couldn't be more wrong there. Whenever there's ways to increase player power, there will always be those who want to min-max. Even in roleplaying games such as D&D, Pathfinder, Starfinder, Call of Cthulhu, etc, exist min-maxers.

You know while i dislike the bad design of LFR, i still think it is the best version of raids.

Because it speaks to your laziness, i.e., your disdain toward manually forming your own group and inviting friends and friends of friends?

For the only reason players got no other rewards. Dry bread.

If you truly think that, you really don't know what you're talking about, and are making a real example of the Dunning-Kruger effect here. It's known, by players and developers alike, that what truly motivates people are not gear, but cosmetics. There was a hole presentation made several years ago where a guy says that if you really want to make money with microtransactions you shouldn't sell player power, but cosmetics.

Why do you think the Trading Post is a success? Why do you think people are engaging so much with Plunderstorm, even those who don't like PvP?

Yeah, that is called a "spiteful skinner box", blizzard lures players in to push a button to receive their currency to buy that new mount. It is the most easy approach on game design.

You're missing the point. The point is that if cosmetics weren't a huge pull like you said, then Plunderstorm wouldn't be as popular as it is right now. Not to mention, on Twitter there's a lot of people who's just happy they finally got the rewards they wanted and now won't engage with the feature again.

Sure there is gatekeeping. The game director just recently said he wants to reserve the best gear for his mythic raidkins.

There isn't no gatekeeping. Again, difficult content is not "gatekeeping". "Gatekeeping" means someone actively preventing you from doing or acquiring what you want. And no one is doing that to you, but yourself. You can get those rewards if you want, and you can, as long as you put the effort. They're not locked from you, no one is "gatekeeping" you besides yourself.

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The last additional boss was in Throne of Thunder 11 years ago. And there's only been 3 of them. How out of touch are you?

Asking how out of touch he is, is like asking how warm is the surface of the sun. :/

[VMSmith]

Seems to me like the creation of Delves might showcase the fact that they've realized that they have to pay more attention to the casual playerbase than they ever have before. And if Delves are a huge success then it's quite possible that they may start getting more of the attention pie than the organized group content.

[Stormwolf64]

Well blizzard really has no idea how to make long lasting fun horizontal content. Sometimes they stumble upon fun things, but it's scrapped and never seen again when maybe it should have been expanded upon.

One such expample for me is the suramar dungeon where you upgrade bit by bit until you finish it. It was super fun. Admittedly they did something similar with Thorgast.. But what was the result? Boring stale shite with the worst trash dungeon template ever and it felt like some PS2 era dungeon crawler.

[s_bushido]

Just tell me why LFR does not receive proper development effort to turn it into fun gameplay, while mythic raids receive a high effort of encounter design and additional bosses and additional boss abilties and phases.

The hell does "fun gameplay" even mean? Because I can guarantee that whatever you personally think it is, will not be the same as someone else's opinion. Which is exactly why expecting the devs to cater to your personal whims is ridiculous.

There are 4 raid difficulties. If you find that you're not having fun in one, you're free to try the others.

[Paperfox]

Just out of curiosity...

Are there any programmers or devs - of any system or game - on here? Anybody in Software Development?

I think that some things are easy and some things are frustratingly hard with many, many iterations to get it working well. And one problem is that people look at the easy things and jump to the conclusion - mostly because they are not in Software Development - that all things are easy.

Clearly it takes just as long to change a timing belt as it does a tire.

[erifwodahs]

Based on the recent data on WoW's population, I think Blizzard finally has an argument/some basis to shift their focus on the casual/solo players without this being perceived as a bad direction by vocal streamers/forums. For reference (figures as % of total current WoW players):

Current Cutting Edge (Mythic raiding) guilds: 0.21%.
Current M+ seasonal title (in what has probably been M+s highest participation of all time): 0.02%.
Current 3v3 players above 2400 rating: 0.04%.

Viewership is equally extremely low:
Peak RWF viewership over the last 7 years: 4.2%.
Peak MDI viewership: 1.5%.
Peak AWC viewership: 0.5%.

If both the participation and viewership of these activities is in the absolute gutter, shouldnt we see some massive changes to Mythic raiding, no more dungeons designed and tuned for m+ and maybe take PvP out of its grave?

By the looks of it, you can completely remove the above populations and this wont even be felt in any aspect of the game, yet will make the game a lot more accessible.

You know that WoW has always had raids and dungeons as main focus? And it's still has great player numbers (combined) so why fix whats not broken?

Also they clearly expressed that they are catering to the casuals more - recent m+ changes for S4, gearing changes, NPC dungeons, TWW system. Amount of causual stuff added in x.x.5/6/7 patches in dragonflight

Also you math is cooked as fuck. Even if we assume that half of the number is retail players, wouldn't that be a proof that casuals just enjoy the game anyway?

[schmonz]

Seems to me like the creation of Delves might showcase the fact that they've realized that they have to pay more attention to the casual playerbase than they ever have before. And if Delves are a huge success then it's quite possible that they may start getting more of the attention pie than the organized group content.

Or they just create another clusterfuck. As like all of their other casual player components. No idea if they do that on purpose or if they really are that incompetent.

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The number doesn't matter.

Obviously nothing matters which contradicts your idea of how a game should be

The fact that they haven't done it for over a decade is what matters.

One case is enough for me, as i said. Because, you know, the number does not matter. And as i said, you ignore my other arguments, as like a lot of effort fine tuning mythic raid encounters, or as like adding additional phases and skills just for mythic raids. And the last two is what they still do.

Why complain about shit they aren't doing? I could be extremely pedantic and say actually there has never been a single "mythic additional boss" because mythic raids didn't exist. Thats how long ago they stopped.

It was called heroic difficulty then, but was on the same level. And be less nitpicky.

What's next? Are you gonna complain about all the resources going into challenge mode dungeons?

No, but we could talk about mythic+ if you like.

[Lolites]

The last additional boss was in Throne of Thunder 11 years ago. And there's only been 3 of them. How out of touch are you?

we didnt get extra phase for quite some time either, he just have no clue

[schmonz]

And yet you still lumped both in the same category as "toxic min-maxers"

Mainly because the toxic min maxing also is part of casual guilds nowadays.

They're not. And calling them that not only makes you a liar who treats their own hyperbole as if they're the norm, but completely undermines your overall point in this discussion.

Oh, look, another insult. First you call me an asshole, now a liar. It is always really great to meet people who mind their manners.

And yet you still eagerly engage with the LFD tool. That aside, literally no one is telling you to join those groups, as people keep telling you to join casual guilds whose pace more similarly matches yours.

I will not join any guild within WoWs community as long the meritocracy is alive and dwelling and as long min maxing is as epidemic as it is nowadays. And no matter how often you repeat your same phrases over and over. You have no influence on how i play the game and never will have.

You don't cater to Blizzard's vision for their own game, but you want Blizzard to cater to your vision for their game? Arrogant much?

Yeah, how naughty i am to ask for a game i would like. How evil i am to ask for a game which would not only give progression to raiders and mythic+ players but to everyone. I am a real bad dude, am i? Do you happen to live in california?

And again you completely dodge the point of the argument.

No, i just handle your personal attacks with ignorance. Or make a joke about your impertinence. How desperate are you to get on that level?

It's not epidemic, and they're not the norm.

Yes they are. In before "No they are not".

The majority of players in WoW are not 'minmaxers' nor do they have the 'gogogo' mentality.

And that after the story when you went to a heroic dungeon and they kicked you? I mean you encounter this toxic meritocracy yourself and now you act as if it does not affect many? Very funny.

Your argument here is akin to meeting a mexican immigrant and then conclude that means everyone in the United States speaks english with a heavy spanish accent.

Racism? Really?

You couldn't be more wrong there. Whenever there's ways to increase player power, there will always be those who want to min-max. Even in roleplaying games such as D&D, Pathfinder, Starfinder, Call of Cthulhu, etc, exist min-maxers.

Yeah, but they would never get the idea to minmax in something like a low level dungeon. And that is what happens all the time in WoWs Iontocracy.

Because it speaks to your laziness, i.e., your disdain toward manually forming your own group and inviting friends and friends of friends?

No it just speaks for my disdain for raids, and organized mercenary groups. And the overly complex game design for raids. I would always prefer a matchmade group over sticking to WoWs nowadays typical meritocracy-player. Simply as that. While i would really like play together with my small group of family and friends. You know, playing with friends. That how WoW should be played best.

And it would be great if i did not have to fill the ranks with strangers.

If you truly think that, you really don't know what you're talking about, and are making a real example of the Dunning-Kruger effect here.

The Dunning-Kruger effect does not exist in the meme way you are using it for. You should read about it and how it really works.

Here is a read up for you: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/cr...bably-not-real

It's known, by players and developers alike, that what truly motivates people are not gear, but cosmetics.

Oh yeah, that must be the reason why challenge modes were that successfull those days

There was a hole presentation made several years ago where a guy says that if you really want to make money with microtransactions you shouldn't sell player power, but cosmetics.

Sorry to tell you the news, Blizzard actually sells player power very successfully, by selling tokens which are used to buy boosts for mythic raid items.

Why do you think the Trading Post is a success? Why do you think people are engaging so much with Plunderstorm, even those who don't like PvP?

Why do you think the token is a success?

You're missing the point. The point is that if cosmetics weren't a huge pull like you said, then Plunderstorm wouldn't be as popular as it is right now.

Plunderstorm is successfull because its a skinner box. It would be as successfull if you simply added gear to it. As all those events short before new expac show, where you farm some rares in regions to get catchup gear.

Not to mention, on Twitter there's a lot of people who's just happy they finally got the rewards they wanted and now won't engage with the feature again.

Yeah, well, skinner box done. Seems the gameplay is not "fun" enough to condition players to play outside of their reward schedule.

"Gatekeeping" means someone actively preventing you from doing or acquiring what you want.

Yes, and the developers gatekeep the best rewards for raiders. Thank you for agreeing.

And no one is doing that to you, but yourself. You can get those rewards if you want, and you can, as long as you put the effort. They're not locked from you, no one is "gatekeeping" you besides yourself.

The devs gatekeep the best rewards to group organization and a high level of choreography. It is not really about skill, but about the question if you are a soldier who is able to listen to your mercenary squad leaders voice to dance the heigan. There is no skill in WoWs top notch gameplay, just a gate called "organized grouping". As long you are able to follow commands, it does not matter if you have skill.

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we didnt get extra phase for quite some time either, he just have no clue

https://www.icy-veins.com/forums/top...hase-revealed/

[TomGreen]

I don't think retail will be changing their direction any time soon when you have 2 other versions of the game both also with varying difficulty being in service all at the same time all accessible seemlessly with one sub.

[PenguinChan]

People are absolutely delulu if they think Blizzard is focusing on e-sports / pvp and high-end players right now. It's like people didn't even play dragonflight and see how it was constantly creating content for casual players to do and access. All of the open world aspects constantly enforcing a casual interaction between players. How you are encouraged on a daily / weekly basis to do the normal content grind (Normal, Heroic and M0 dungeons) and LFR / Flex raiding with even normal BG's / Arenas even being a source of progression.

Like... I don't get it. Could there be aspects that need attention? Well yeah, of course. The open world is a great example of where it's fun but very limited in difficulty. Delves seem to be the solution to such a thing, and make it so players can learn the game and the mechanics over time. FFXIV did this and the average player over there can do way more than the average open-world only player does in WoW. And not because either group is actually better but because FFXIV actually has very obvious and well designed markers / mechanics to teach players as they progress in the game.

WoW fails a lot on this or even lacks it unless it's a more recent dungeon / raid... If it even has obvious mechanics for casuals to know lol.

[schmonz]

Delves seem to be the solution to such a thing, and make it so players can learn the game and the mechanics over time.

Delves are handled as the great saviour of all casual endgame gameplay, while noone has seen them yet. Also i would not like to see them as a teaching ground, but as real endgame for anyone who does not want to play mythic+ or raids.

Yet i am very skeptical, as the devs past shows they simply are not able to create intrinsically AND extrinsically rewarding instanced gameplay for casual gamers. I mean.. if all you know is theorycrafting raid encounters and mythic raiding, you simply have no idea what a typical casual gamer would want.

FFXIV did this and the average player over there can do way more than the average open-world only player does in WoW.

Sure, as successfull MMORPGs actually should adress their casual gamers with progression.

[Ielenia]

Mainly because the toxic min maxing also is part of casual guilds nowadays.

It's not. And your insistence in accepting facts not only does not change that, but it cripples your original points as you take your own hyperbole and extremist examples as if they're the norms.

Oh, look, another insult. First you call me an asshole, now a liar. It is always really great to meet people who mind their manners.

I did not call you a liar. I said "lying makes you a liar", and you taking umbrage with that tells me I've hit close to home and that you know you are lying about the state of casual guilds in WoW.

I will not join any guild within WoWs community as long the meritocracy is alive and dwelling and as long min maxing is as epidemic as it is nowadays.

None of those things are happening anywhere near to the extent you claim they are, so you might as well uninstall WoW, close your accounts, and go play single-player games.

Yeah, how naughty i am to ask for a game i would like.

And that after the story when you went to a heroic dungeon and they kicked you?

First, you're not asking, you're demanding. Second, to claim you know better about what is better for the game than them is, well, arrogance. Third, despite what you may believe, you are not the minority. And such a small minority that Blizzard has even come out and stated that heroic dungeons and mythic-0 dungeons are largely abandoned mere weeks after the expansion launches and mythic+ opens up.

Yes they are. In before "No they are not".

No. No, they are not the norm. Your extremist examples and hyperbolic generalizations are not the norm. Also, I hope you know this already, but just in case you don't: saying "in before 'X'" does nothing to counter or negate 'X' as a counter-argument.

Racism? Really?

The fact you see racism in an argument that has nothing to do with racism says a lot about how you view the world than anything else. Either that, or you're desperate to deflect the argument that you make up nonsense.

Yeah, but they would never get the idea to minmax in something like a low level dungeon.

Literally the first item in a Google Search for "powerful level 1 D&D builds"

organized mercenary groups.

Those are not the norm, and you'd do well to stop with the dishonest hyperbole and generalization.

The Dunning-Kruger effect does not exist in the meme way you are using it for. You should read about it and how it really works.

Ah. I see more deflections. The point of the argument here is that you insist you're right in spite of all the evidence that shows you're wrong. It's not 'gear' that drives most players: it's cosmetics.

Oh yeah, that must be the reason why challenge modes were that successfull those days

Because they were too hard for most people.

Sorry to tell you the news, Blizzard actually sells player power very successfully,

No, they don't. They objectively do not. The token gives you literally zero player power.

Why do you think the token is a success?

Probably because it allows people that have excess of gold to be able to play the game without paying a dime from their pockets. Probably because they can use their WoW gold to buy the next WoW expansion, or use it to buy a real life plushie from the Blizzard Store. Or buy the Diablo IV game.

Plunderstorm is successfull because its a skinner box.

No, it's successful because it offers cosmetic rewards for WoW that is not accessible anywhere. If it didn't offer those rewards for WoW, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't see half the participation it has today. I know I and my entire guild wouldn't care for it, since we're not a PvP guild.

Yes, and the developers gatekeep the best rewards for raiders. Thank you for agreeing.

The devs gatekeep the best rewards to group organization and a high level of choreography.

That is not gatekeeping. For someone who so smugly deflected an earlier argument of mine to complain about the 'dunning-kruger' effect, you sure are so confidently and rather proudly using the word "gatekeeping" wrong here. No one is keeping you from earning those rewards but yourself.

mercenary squad leaders

Those are as much the norm in WoW as speaking italian is the norm around the world.

[schmonz]

It's not. And your insistence in accepting facts not only does not change that, but it cripples your original points as you take your own hyperbole and extremist examples as if they're the norms.

"No it is not" seems to be your most used argument. And i simply answer with: Yes, they are the norms. That is how WoWs community works nowadays.

I did not call you a liar. I said "lying makes you a liar", and you taking umbrage with that tells me I've hit close to home and that you know you are lying about the state of casual guilds in WoW.

I am not lying no matter how often you call me a liar. And also not if you put it into if clauses when you set the conditional value to true based on your assumptions.

None of those things are happening anywhere near to the extent you claim they are, so you might as well uninstall WoW, close your accounts, and go play single-player games.

Yes they are.

First, you're not asking, you're demanding.

No, i am asking. I cannot demand anything. You are just that offended by my ideas that you literally do a hatestorm whenever i bring up my wishes. You even cannot stop your endless "No, it is not"-bullshit simply as you are incapable to accept people see it different than you. I really would never make your acquaintance in real life, as you obviously are a fanatic. Wonder if you would use violence in RL if you did not get your agenda going.

Second, to claim you know better about what is better for the game than them is, well, arrogance.

I know what is better for players like me, players that do not like raids and mythic+ and that still want a challenge and proper rewards.

Third, despite what you may believe, you are not the minority.

Thank you for your support. But i never said i am part of a minority. I think organized raiders are part of a minority.

And such a small minority that Blizzard has even come out and stated that heroic dungeons and mythic-0 dungeons are largely abandoned mere weeks after the expansion launches and mythic+ opens up.

And i told you i do not play heroic or mythic dungeons because i do not see them as rewarding enough. And i guess others do not play them because they are not rewarding enough. That is why the devs up the rewards with an upcoming patch.

No. No, they are not the norm.

Yes. Yes, they are the norm.

The fact you see racism in an argument that has nothing to do with racism says a lot about how you view the world than anything else. Either that, or you're desperate to deflect the argument that you make up nonsense.

Well, your obvious racist statement is that every mexican immigrant has a spanish accent. While a person could talk fluently english without you even noticing their decent. Sure that is racism.

Literally the first item in a Google Search for "powerful level 1 D&D builds"

Ok, why is a D&D character different than a job interview for a MMORPG dungeon? And what separates D&D from WoWs meritocracy? D&D is mostly being played by friends, it is a table top game meant for friends and families. Means, you do not find this as epidemic among casual D&D players as you find it within the wow community, especially as noone forces any table top player to adhere to every single rule of D&D but just may freely decide how the situation plays out. Only a very few play D&D completely based on the ruleset. One of the strengths of D&D tabletop games is that you may play them however you like to.

In WoW, the rules are being made by the game developers, without any chance to escape them. So if the game world is based on competition and challenges, it will without doubt have a negative effect on the community, which will tend to min max everything. As like we have it in World of Warcraft nowadays. Contrary to hardcore D&D players, which minmax, those that just play table tops for fun are way more common and they bend the rules to whatever they like just to have a fun evening.

Those are not the norm, and you'd do well to stop with the dishonest hyperbole and generalization.

Yes they are the norm. And i do no dishonest hyperbole and generalization. That does not change no matter how often you write "No it is not".

Ah. I see more deflections. The point of the argument here is that you insist you're right in spite of all the evidence that shows you're wrong. It's not 'gear' that drives most players: it's cosmetics.

I say gear is as important as cosmetics. That is if the developers would simply allow anyone to gear up and have gearing progression. As long you only get cosmetics, people play for that.

Plunderstorm would be as successfull, if it also would drop useful gear rather than just the cosmetic stuff.

Because they were too hard for most people.

Nowadays mythic+ dungeons are also very hard, yet way more people play them. And you know why? Because they give gearing progression.

In before "No it is not".

No, they don't. They objectively do not. The token gives you literally zero player power.

Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah. Are you really that illusioned? People buy boosts from raiding guilds with token gold all the time, it gives them 480-489 ilevel gear.

Probably because it allows people that have excess of gold to be able to play the game without paying a dime from their pockets. Probably because they can use their WoW gold to buy the next WoW expansion, or use it to buy a real life plushie from the Blizzard Store. Or buy the Diablo IV game.

Or, you know, they buy tokens to pay boosts to get them mythic raid loots. Something you really believe does not exist. Which is so funny and shows how disconnected you are. That, or you simply ignore the existance of that.

If it didn't offer those rewards for WoW, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't see half the participation it has today. I know I and my entire guild wouldn't care for it, since we're not a PvP guild.

And if it had ongoing gearing progression, people would continue to play it after they got all the transmogs.

No one is keeping you from earning those rewards but yourself.

Sure the devs do exactly that by hiding gearing progression behind organization. That exactly removes that fundamental part of playing a RPG from anyone else than a raider and and mythic+ player.

In before you get into the next round with your alternate reality where boosting mythic raids and getting gear for token gold does not exist. Really, i never met a more illusioned person like you before. The most funny part about it is that you really mean it, don't you? You really want to pretend there is no p2w with tokens, don't you?

I will answer all of your following "No it is not"-answers with "Yes it is". And stop responding to your obvious illusions. I mean, neglecting facts is nothing you really should utilize. No matter how much you dislike it. And no, repeating your same bullshit ("NO! TERE IS NO RAID BOOSTS!") will not make it true.

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Oh and @Ielenia, before you answer again, just let me paraphrase your upcoming answer

Yes, it is. List of reasons.

No it is not!

Yes, it is. List of reasons.

No it is not!

Yes, it is. List of reasons.

No it is not!

Yes, it is. List of reasons.

No it is not!

Yes, it is. List of reasons.

No it is not!

[Ielenia]

"No it is not" seems to be your most used argument.

That's not the argument, though. That's the denial of your claim. The actual arguments come after that.

And i simply answer with: Yes, they are the norms. That is how WoWs community works nowadays.

No, they are not the norm. I've explained that multiple times already. Your bias is not fact.

I am not lying no matter how often you call me a liar.

You are lying when you said that "toxic min-maxing and mercenary guilds are the norm". You may actually believe what you're saying, but that doesn't make those statements any less of a lie.

Yes they are.

No, they're not. Again: your bias is not fact. They're just clouding your vision and preventing you from seeing things objectively.

You are just that offended by my ideas that you literally do a hatestorm whenever i bring up my wishes.

Because you frame everything on such negative hyperbole and treat extreme examples as if they're the norm.

Wonder if you would use violence in RL if you did not get your agenda going.

I can only surmise this is projection, considering how vitriolic you are when talking about WoW.

Thank you for your support. But i never said i am part of a minority. I think organized raiders are part of a minority.

"Ahead of the Curve: Fyrakk the Blazing": Defeat Fyrakk the Blazing in Amirdrassil, the Dream's Hope on Heroic difficulty or higher, before the release of the next raid tier.

Attained by 33% of the profiles, according to WoWHead. Pretty big for a 'minority', don't you think?

And i told you i do not play heroic or mythic dungeons because i do not see them as rewarding enough.

I thought it was because of this so-called alleged "toxic mercenary gogogo attitude"? Make up your mind.

Yes. Yes, they are the norm.

No. No, they are not the norm. Your extremist examples and hyperbolic generalizations are not the norm.

Well, your obvious racist statement is that every mexican immigrant has a spanish accent. While a person could talk fluently english without you even noticing their decent. Sure that is racism.

Really? You really think that a person's accent magically disappears the moment they learn to fluently speak another language? Let me clue you in on a fact: being 'fluent' in a language doesn't mean you speak it without accent. And again, you're using the 'racism' buzzword to dodge the analogy here considering there's nothing racist about my statement.

Ok, why is a D&D character different than a job interview for a MMORPG dungeon? And what separates D&D from WoWs meritocracy? D&D is mostly being played by friends, it is a table top game meant for friends and families.

You really shouldn't speak of matters you have no idea about like you're some kind of expert in the field. Ever herd of 'virtual table tops' and "DMs for hire"? I bet you haven't.

Yes they are the norm.

No, they're not.

And i do no dishonest hyperbole and generalization.

Yes, you do. In fact, it's all you've done so far.

I say gear is as important as cosmetics.

Well, that wouldn't be the first wrong thing you said in this thread...

Plunderstorm would be as successfull, if it also would drop useful gear rather than just the cosmetic stuff.

No. No, it wouldn't. Because the game has far less egregious and more engaging and rewarding ways of acquiring gear for the PvE player. Namely: mythic+ and raiding.

Nowadays mythic+ dungeons are also very hard, yet way more people play them. And you know why? Because they give gearing progression.

I honestly do not doubt you consider mythic+2 to be "very hard". That said, M+ is supposed to give gear progression. Challenge modes did not. And when people got what they wanted, they just stopped participating. Like how it's happening to Plunderstorm.

People buy boosts from raiding guilds with token gold all the time, it gives them 480-489 ilevel gear.

So? That is not the same as Blizzard selling player power. The token is not player power. That's like saying your real life job gives you player power in WoW.

And if it had ongoing gearing progression, people would continue to play it after they got all the transmogs.

PvP players would. Because they still do. PvE transmog/mount collectors are just glad it's over.

Sure the devs do exactly that by hiding gearing progression behind organization.

No, they don't. I'll repeat: that is not what "gatekeeping" is. Gatekeeping is when someone prevents you from participating. No one is preventing you from participating and earning those rewards. No one but yourself.

your alternate reality

The only "alternate reality" here exists in your own head.

Or, you know, they buy tokens to pay boosts to get them mythic raid loots. Something you really believe does not exist.

where boosting mythic raids and getting gear for token gold does not exist.

What is this red herring? We're not discussing boosting here.

Oh and @Ielenia, before you answer again, just let me paraphrase your upcoming answer

I mean, it's not my fault if you keep listing your bias as facts and need to constantly be corrected about the actual state of things in WoW.

[schmonz]

No, they are not the norm. I've explained that multiple times already. Your bias is not fact.
No, they're not. Again: your bias is not fact. They're just clouding your vision and preventing you from seeing things objectively.
No. No, they are not the norm. Your extremist examples and hyperbolic generalizations are not the norm.
No, they're not.
No. No, it wouldn't. Because the game has far less egregious and more engaging and rewarding ways of acquiring gear for the PvE player. Namely: mythic+ and raiding.
No, they don't. I'll repeat: that is not what "gatekeeping" is. Gatekeeping is when someone prevents you from participating. No one is preventing you from participating and earning those rewards. No one but yourself.

Yes, they are. I brought reasons.

You are lying when you said that "toxic min-maxing and mercenary guilds are the norm". You may actually believe what you're saying, but that doesn't make those statements any less of a lie.

And you repeat your liar accusations.

Attained by 33% of the profiles, according to WoWHead. Pretty big for a 'minority', don't you think?

And by 1% on mythic difficulty. How again is the effort for mythic raids justified?

https://www.wowhead.com/achievement=...kk-the-blazing

Really? You really think that a person's accent magically disappears the moment they learn to fluently speak another language?
Let me clue you in on a fact: being 'fluent' in a language doesn't mean you speak it without accent. And again, you're using the 'racism' buzzword to dodge the analogy here considering there's nothing racist about my statement.

I do not join a debate with you about your racist attitude.

I honestly do not doubt you consider mythic+2 to be "very hard". That said, M+ is supposed to give gear progression. Challenge modes did not. And when people got what they wanted, they just stopped participating. Like how it's happening to Plunderstorm.

Thank you for recognizing gear progression as something people want.

You really shouldn't speak of matters you have no idea about like you're some kind of expert in the field. Ever herd of 'virtual table tops' and "DMs for hire"? I bet you haven't.

I played D&D for years. We never needed to hire any DMs. And it has nothing to do and is not even comparable to the min maxing epidemic in world of warcraft. You literally compare apples with oranges. WOTC encourages D&D players to use their own rules, while Blizzard cements a meritocracy into their game.

The only "alternate reality" here exists in your own head.

Yeah, it was you who denied there are raid boosts from tokens where also items are being sold.

So? That is not the same as Blizzard selling player power. The token is not player power. That's like saying your real life job gives you player power in WoW.

Do you really want to pretend people do not buy power with getting boosts from tokens in mythic raids? Sure they do. Your ignorance does not help on that. You denying facts does not help you on that. You are tunnel visioned. You do not incorporate answers, but simply ignore them. You repeat your same bullshit over and over. You use insults whenever facts contradict your bias. You use racist prejudices.

Enough reasons to ignore you.

[Stoic Pete]

Schmonz now Im curious, what do you do for a living where you have time to sit and debate your opinions 16 pages that are 90% your own posts?

[AudibleEscalation]

Schmonz now Im curious, what do you do for a living where you have time to sit and debate your opinions 16 pages that are 90% your own posts?

[schmonz]

Schmonz now Im curious, what do you do for a living where you have time to sit and debate your opinions 16 pages that are 90% your own posts?

I am a superhero and a billionaire. No, just joking. I am a full time programmer who is on holidays. You will soon be released from my extensive posting activity.

Edit: If you sit on the beach, one pina collada after the other, it gets dull a little bit. I try to compensate that with having game design talks on a forum in the internets. Yes, it is a niche activity, but fun.. well, sometimes..

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Yes, that summarizes it really well.