Casual players dominate WoW, yet game is still focused on esports?

[PenguinChan]

We already had a system which allowed turbo casuals to get within 100% of the power of Mythic raiders: It was called Titanforging and it allowed you to get a BiS trinket for collecting 20 bear asses. Wonder why that's not around anymore...

Because they went back to a badge-upgrade system in the form of flightstones. The war/titanforge system was always about making you grind shit over and over again until the item (hopefully) dropped with one or the other. That's without the random secondary stats (if the item had secondary stats). I too, also wonder why anyone but oblivious casual players disliked that system lol.

Not that Blizzard couldn't just bring back reforging all secondary stats with 100% conversion and solve part of that issue. Although knowing Blizzard they'd just bring the D3/4 enchanting style of reforging to encourage wasted time. But yeah, RNG on top of RNG drops with a good chunk having RNG secondary stats... lol.

[Magistrate]

If you want [...] KSH, then yeah, you're going to have to put in a little bit of effort. But even +20's are extremely accessible to most players.

This went two different directions. Are 20s endgame and challenging, or are they so easy most players do them and they're casual? Pick a lane.

[Relapses]

Because they went back to a badge-upgrade system in the form of flightstones. The war/titanforge system was always about making you grind shit over and over again until the item (hopefully) dropped with one or the other. That's without the random secondary stats (if the item had secondary stats). I too, also wonder why anyone but oblivious casual players disliked that system lol.

Not that Blizzard couldn't just bring back reforging all secondary stats with 100% conversion and solve part of that issue. Although knowing Blizzard they'd just bring the D3/4 enchanting style of reforging to encourage wasted time. But yeah, RNG on top of RNG drops with a good chunk having RNG secondary stats... lol.

We can only hope they don't though I can see a certain subsection of the playerbase loving something like that. There's an unironic faction of WoW players who determine the value of any system by how much it pisses off raiders. The angrier it makes raiders, the better it must be.

- - - Updated - - -

This went two different directions. Are 20s endgame and challenging, or are they so easy most players do them and they're casual? Pick a lane.

That's the beauty: Right now the game doesn't need to pick a lane because it is that easy. The knowledge of this reality would, of course, require the people who complain about the game being too difficult to actually play the game... but we can't have that, now can we?

[Relapses]

I completely agree with you. People who enjoy easy games often get bored with them quickly.

Hence why I play a billion alts.

[Triceron]

I've argued with him for several pages, trying to get him to understand that those "facts" he keeps repeating are nothing but his own bias and negative views on WoW, but all he did was double-down on it all.

I doubt you'll have much success, but I wish you good luck either way.

I'm much happier having him put me on ignore so I don't have to suffer his bullshit responses anymore.

[schmonz]

Hence why I play a billion alts.

I use to play a lot of alts too, but for the reason my endgame stops at world quests. Means, at some point there simply is everything done, and then leveling a new char is the next endgame. Problem is that leveling is having no other use than getting to endgame level, and that it is massively streamlined. Also, if you played 20 alts, it gets really dull at a point.

I tried to get back into dragonflight at some point, after i was unsubbed for a few months. Result was that i had no idea where to go and how to get into the actual world quest island or place, while i realized that the old world quests simply were scaled up in rewards, and that a shitton of new currencies were added. The game gets more and more complex when it is about "what should i do next and which currency is the one i need and why is that gnome selling this crafting ingredients?".

More endgame please, Blizzard! And no, i still wont play raids or mythic dungeons. And less currencies. Less bloat. Less overcomplexity. If i logg in back i simply want a screen which shows "Hey, welcome back. Go here. There is the new stuff. Have a nice day!". The last splash screen and adventure guide had all activities combined into a large mess of "There is that, and that, and that and that, now do something!" approach.

When i realzed that i just waited for SoD release and played that. Good old classic, when there was nothing but leveling. And with SoD a few new runes. No shitton of currencies. Useful fishing. A hunters pet to be fed. Arrows needed. Useful crafting. Oh yeah, that is what WoW was. And it was not overly complex, just immersive.

[Johnjohn]

I think the damage has long since been done. They started down this path I would say Cata/MOP and have doubled down ever since. Sounds like they threw a few more bones in Dragonflight, but I think its for naught. You cannot alienate a particular playerbase for that long and then do an about face and take a chance that they all come back, especially seeing as there are just way better casual mmos out there now.

WoW to me really is now mythic plus and raiding. Thats what they have catered to for a while now, those are the players they should try to keep in my opnion.

[Eazy]

I'm almost certain that more people who play football/soccer are casual players than professionals.

Same things apply to WoW(or any other sport).

[klaps_05]

I'm almost certain that more people who play football/soccer are casual players than professionals.

Same things apply to WoW(or any other sport).

The difference is both professional and casual football players play the same game. Which is not the case in WoW as evident by participation rates.

[Magistrate]

That's the beauty: Right now the game doesn't need to pick a lane because it is that easy. The knowledge of this reality would, of course, require the people who complain about the game being too difficult to actually play the game... but we can't have that, now can we?

I think I would need statistics to agree with you on this. I don't consider myself particularly good at WoW. I've been playing since late Wrath. I did some HC raiding in Legion. This tier, I got KSM again, which felt challenging for me. I stopped around...2100? 2200? 20+s were not easy for me. They were basically the late teens of DF launch tier. Given, this was months ago.

The way people on this forum toss around "yeah I snort heroine and jerk off while AFKING through 20+s" and attach this to every in-game take, however relevant, to make all of their arguments /feel/ more valid than they are while containing minimal substance is annoying at best.

Easy and hard are so...relative and personal. What does easy mean? Less than 0.5% of players have KSH I just read in another thread. KSM is definitely above that, but I wonder by how much. Does this mean the content is easy?

There's a lot of nuance to be teased out of this, of course. Participation is also connected to reward treadmills--maybe players just don't feel these achievements are worthy enough of their time, so they don't push for them, thus low numbers. There are probably other takes.

I'm just trying to understand where this 20+s are easy sentiment is emerging from. How are we assessing that? What is the information? What are the scope limits?

Edit--

Also want to say I look forward to your response--you often have well-thought-out takes. I'm just not seeing it right now.

[TomGreen]

We already had a system which allowed turbo casuals to get within 100% of the power of Mythic raiders: It was called Titanforging and it allowed you to get a BiS trinket for collecting 20 bear asses. Wonder why that's not around anymore...

Man I miss titanforging. It was a pleasant surprise to get something good from a wq. But it got yeeted cause heaven forbid you have a chance at good loot for minimum effort.

[Eazy]

The difference is both professional and casual football players play the same game. Which is not the case in WoW as evident by participation rates.

Everyone play the same game in WoW also, they just have different skill(leagues).

[schmonz]

Everyone play the same game in WoW also, they just have different skill(leagues).

And different interests. As if everyone wants to play in organized groups..

[Merpish]

This went two different directions. Are 20s endgame and challenging, or are they so easy most players do them and they're casual? Pick a lane.

Something requiring effort doesn't make it inaccessible, and the effort required to successfully time every key at +20 isn't actually that high. So long as a player has a reasonable understanding of their class and role, and a general idea of how to navigate a dungeon, they can confidently time every key at +20.

[Triceron]

The difference is both professional and casual football players play the same game. Which is not the case in WoW as evident by participation rates.

It would be the same if the context was Spectator Sports being watched as a form of entertainment. Participation rate doesn't matter. Look how niche the Olympics competitive sports are, and they are still watched by millions around the world who aren't pole vaulting or high diving or doing olympic level gymnastics.


There is a misunderstanding in thinking the only people who watch esports are the people who play the games. Anyone can watch esports. There are probably more people who don't play WoW who watch it as an esport than people who do play WoW and watch it. That's what isn't being considered here.

Hockey, for example, is a bigger spectator sport than it is actually played. Not everyone who watches the NHL knows how to skate, many may never have even played Hockey im their lifetime.

[schmonz]

Mythic+ is a hybrid out of premade group gameplay and pugging. I believe the pugging part is adressing a notable minority, and the premade group part is as any other premade gameplay very niche.

If mythic0-10 was on the dungeon finder it would adress way more players.

[jeezusisacasual]

Mythic+ is a hybrid out of premade group gameplay and pugging. I believe the pugging part is adressing a notable minority, and the premade group part is as any other premade gameplay very niche.

If mythic0-10 was on the dungeon finder it would adress way more players.

I think with the condensing of the M+ system in the next season will do alot of good to promote people to get over some kind of nervousness ( lol ) of particpating in content. While i am not against the idea of queable content being better for specific niches inside the game i think that at a specific key level it has to stop since you want to tailor the group to your needs.

My best mate i met in college plays a feral druid, i play a brewmaster monk so i maximize our value to doing the most dps as possible all else be damned. I rarely invite mages, warlocks or anything that does not directly contribute to our dps gains simply because we are flooded with people willing to join and we want success which i can count on 1 hand absolute dumpster runs this season. So we generally go with Warrior, shaman, priest ideally enhance shaman and healer priest but we are not that picky. Plus with us being mostly melee heavy the kicks are almost never a problem with a bunch of overall control and since this game outside of MDI is melee dominated its a win/win. Having a LFG system would not help with this unless it could be tailored to exempt the classes you deem bad but then you run into meta only etc.

[Ielenia]

If mythic0-10 was on the dungeon finder it would adress way more players.

If those were on the LFD you'd see a thousand times more of this toxicity you speak of, considering match-making doesn't care for optimal builds, and you might end up with one one able to do dispels and some who are not even very sure of what they have to do. Worse if it's a tank that doesn't have the best idea on how to proceed or a healer that isn't very mana-efficient in their rotation.

[PenguinChan]

We can only hope they don't though I can see a certain subsection of the playerbase loving something like that. There's an unironic faction of WoW players who determine the value of any system by how much it pisses off raiders. The angrier it makes raiders, the better it must be.

I never understood why. There are a lot of changes that benefit both raiders and non-raiders. Reforging coming back with full customization would be amazing for anyone, making generic gear way more pliable and not a bummer if it rolls (or just drops) with stats you don't want. Personally speaking (you may differ) I don't think the issue Mythic players have is necessarily the ilvl or the power level of casuals - but more-so having to DO too much casual content to stay competitive in a raid setting.

For example Legiondaries dropping from every piece of content with no reliable way of getting them (until the .3 patch). Obviously people shouldn't bench you for missing an item, but they can be so powerful it's not only a handicap but a detriment having you without it compared to another play with said item. At times like that it feels bad for the raiders, but casual players (obviously) don't care because they're never in that scenario. Of course Blizzard was to blame for this, not creating a raid-friendly currency to let raiders actually specifically get items they needed over a short period of time.

I dunno. I think systems can be put into place that encourage raiding as the best and fastest way to get stronger (with some unique trinkets / items attached to Mythic only fights) - but also allowing non-raiders to progress towards said end-game over a longer period of time (it's somewhat like that rn).

If those were on the LFD you'd see a thousand times more of this toxicity you speak of, considering match-making doesn't care for optimal builds, and you might end up with one one able to do dispels and some who are not even very sure of what they have to do. Worse if it's a tank that doesn't have the best idea on how to proceed or a healer that isn't very mana-efficient in their rotation.

Eh, they could add M0 (not 1-10) to the finder and require everyone but the healer to have a interrupt. And if you spec into a stun ability (AoE or single) it'd give you priority in that role (outside of healer). There are ways to reliably have the system require certain things of the player, and especially if they get faster queues and / or better rewards for doing it.

Players are more than willing to become versatile but they also don't like going out of their way for it. Something as simple as accelerated queue times and more gold + progression items would make more people take that stuff. Even better, have a party-wide bonus for interrupting, stunning and doing proper trash mechanics so that not only are you rewarded for doing it, it's actively encouraged and people will learn to do it.

Even better if they add blatant marks you can click on or prioritize with tab-targeting during M0. These are all spitball ideas, don't take them too seriously but there are ways to get players to do things without it being toxic.

[Relapses]

I think I would need statistics to agree with you on this. I don't consider myself particularly good at WoW. I've been playing since late Wrath. I did some HC raiding in Legion. This tier, I got KSM again, which felt challenging for me. I stopped around...2100? 2200? 20+s were not easy for me. They were basically the late teens of DF launch tier. Given, this was months ago.

The way people on this forum toss around "yeah I snort heroine and jerk off while AFKING through 20+s" and attach this to every in-game take, however relevant, to make all of their arguments /feel/ more valid than they are while containing minimal substance is annoying at best.

Easy and hard are so...relative and personal. What does easy mean? Less than 0.5% of players have KSH I just read in another thread. KSM is definitely above that, but I wonder by how much. Does this mean the content is easy?

https://raider.io/mythic-plus/cutoffs/season-df-3/us

Not sure where the .5% figure came from. Right now 2500 rating puts you in the top 20%.

There's a lot of nuance to be teased out of this, of course. Participation is also connected to reward treadmills--maybe players just don't feel these achievements are worthy enough of their time, so they don't push for them, thus low numbers. There are probably other takes.

I'm just trying to understand where this 20+s are easy sentiment is emerging from. How are we assessing that? What is the information? What are the scope limits?

I'm basing this assessment on having played every M+ season since BfA. In BfA, a weekly +15 was something of a trap. That's where "no leaver" came from. This season, a +18 can be run with a freshly boosted level 70. (I know, I did one.) They've lowered the threshold for meaningful keys significantly this season, I think in large part due to the inherent power baked into giving players 39 item levels instead of the normal 26 they had given in every season up until this one. This isn't a bad thing. I like easy weekly keys and, imo, if the people who complain about the game being too hard would spend a fraction of the time they spend complaining just playing the game instead I'm sure they'd agree.

Edit--

Also want to say I look forward to your response--you often have well-thought-out takes. I'm just not seeing it right now.

I appreciate the backhanded compliment.