Forsaken Paladins, do they make sense?

[MsSideEye]

Yes, and you are as wrong in those threads as you are in this one. Taking the factions out of Warcraft, a function of overall homogenization, has done nothing but harm the story. Not necessarily the Horde and Alliance as ungainly coalitions as they themselves are a step back from WC3's much more freeform factions, but the idea of competing races, motives and cultures with mutually exclusive goals. One of the game's founding strengths was the degree of even understandable basic high-level fantasy that each race and class mix represents, which makes it easy for people to latch onto whatever they like even if they don't necessarily care for the rest. Attempting to create universal interest has always failed throughout the entirety of the game's lifespan, from tying Arthas's story to Bargain Bin Paladin #5, to Thrall in Cata, to the Sylvanas and Anduin variety hour these last couple expansions.

I argue it's not a problem of homogenization, it's more a problem that's existed as far as Warcraft and Blizzard itself: The simple fact that the focus is never on exploring the factions as we have them and their thoughts, reactions, and the like to current events. While part of that does make sense, as the bulk of the story should revolve around the latest events (So, Dragonflight in this case), what little story that might explore the cultures we do have gets thrown to the back of the line if explored at all. Hell, that's kinda how the whole Dracthyr are handled in game. They just kinda appear and there's no reaction, no worries, no anything. We're just told 'Oh yeah, these guys are a thing now and they're part of the Alliance and Horde' and nothing else comes from it.

But past any value judgment, your point is principally wrong because it's both premised on Blizzard being shit writers and therefore some things not being worth attempting and also defending doubling down on Blizzard's universalist story route. When confronted with every universalist story being a boring carfire you go 'yes, but that's because of the writing staff', yet when it comes to the points where variance and difference between races and motives come up you either make a moralistic argument (Night Elves shouldn't have gender roles because those are bad), which I figure is closer to your actual issue with it and secondarily to going on about how yes, that might be good in theory, but Blizzard are bad writers, ergo it shouldn't be attempted, without either taking into account that that applies to every route without fail or taking into account basic cause and effect and if you put shit in, you'll get shit out, see here:

I'm not defending Blizzard's choice for class availability from a Story standpoint. I'm saying it's something that should be done for a GAMEPLAY standpoint. The two are not, have not, and should not be one and the same. Now while there is some correlation between them because of how the particular races and classes lore goes (IE: Kinda weird for Draenei of any stripe to be Warlocks considering the whole 'association with the burning legion' thing'), that is something for the lore and story team to give a reasonable and understandable explanation for why that exists. Or even better, give us a quest line explaining it.

As a writer and developer myself, my main focus has been and always will be the freedom of the player to express themselves. If that means they want to go into their raids wearing a clown suit while wielding a fish? That's their prerogative. It would be up to me to craft a reason why that would fit into the world, story, and make sure to explain to the player within the games presentation.

The thing is, though, is the fact that I feel like you are associating the 'Let's make everyone the same/let everyone be anything' aspect with the fact that Blizzard has never done it well before. But that doesn't mean that the idea CAN'T be done well. Given the time, effort, and focus, I'm more than confident that you could make every race/class combo in the game work from a lore and story perspective (Even to the point of making up new stuff so it's not all Mages in Dalarn and the like) and have players enjoy it. The real question is... does anyone trust Blizzard enough to do it?

You agree with my premise that in general race-specific lore is good and argue that usually it's done poorly, fair enough. But you will argue, one paragraph down the line, not for further effort to be put into it, but for the lazy solution that encourages not putting the effort in in the first place. If the writing is poor despite an initial effort being made then the writing, regardless of its general quality, will be proportionately worse when there's no encouragement to make said effort and on the opposite, every story decision is made from the perspective of shrugging shoulders and going 'sure, the players can do whatever'.

As I said above, I'm a writer. While I hold no illusions that I'm the best one, or even very good at times, I try my best to make sure my own worlds are internally consistent and if something is going to happen, you could follow it within said world causing that event. This is a value that I personally believe each and every writer should have at their heart. But that isn't something that's going to happen and some people simple do not care.

Were I in charge of Warcraft lore, I assure you I'd go out and make a specific questline to explain why Draenei are Warlocks now, how Gnomes became hunters, and how Trolls suddenly got interested in druidism. Because that should be the bare minimum. Fact is, yes, Classes lore in WoW is tied enough to certain races/ideals that just slapping that onto another race wouldn't work. But that's my job, to make it work to a satisfactory level. And it's something that Blizzard has failed upon.

When you start out with the premise that factions, race specifics and so on don't matter, then your writing staff operating from this premise will produce stories with less attention to the setting and the individual races because whatever their skill, they won't need to care for it. This also relates to how classes work in Warcraft in general.

I feel like this is a statement that is flawed, if only because you're holding the idea of factions and race specifics being so paramount that they couldn't exist without that being a focus... which just isn't true. Every writer draws on their own experience and interests when creating their works. For some that would be deep diving into the nitty gritty of what might make, say, the Gnomes what they are while for others it might be exploring the Void and it's creatures. But that's a matter of interest and what story they're wanting to tell given that freedom in a blank world.

That's entirely different to coming into an already established property, even if I'm told carte blanche to do whatever, because there is HISTORY there. There exists people who came and worked in the world before me. The first key aspect any writer should embrace is research. If I'm going to be writing about a particular race in WoW, I'm going to do my best to learn what makes them tick. Their ins and outs. What they want and what they need. And I'd do my best as someone who wants their readers/players to be invested to make sure I'm living up to that ideal.

In the case of the Forsaken Paladins here, I'd look at the fact that we've had a Forsaken Paladin in the game already Sir Zeliek. I'd look at the fact that we have proof that Forsaken can wield the light even in death with the Priests. I'd look at the fact that a number of Forsaken could and likely would have been Paladins in their previous life. That alone feels like it's enough of a reason to consider Forsaken Paladins at least, though I do think more could and should be done.

Your explanation is exactly what I'm getting at. It's not that there's no class story in Final Fantasy or whether it's good bad. It's that it's a single class story. Any white mage is part of the same general white mage.

To be fair, I brought up the FF example mostly because I was pointing out the fact that different cultures, ideals, and the like are very much represented within the jobs while allowing all players to be them regardless of their race. :P

This isn't the case in Warcraft. The fantasy of a human mage in Dalaran as an academic city, a blood elf magister part of the ruling elite of Quel'thalas or a Highborne night elf mage part of an exiled aristocracy reintegrating are all different despite sharing the same gameplay iteration. The stories for one won't apply to the others, someone like Mace doesn't care for Kirin Tor content despite clearly caring a lot about arcane in another context and so on. These are some of the less showy examples, with paladins and priests being even more distant. DKs, DHs and monks (and evokers, but they're also a race) are the closest to having a single class fantasy irrespective of race, but they're the exception rather than the rule and even then things like Koltira and Thassarian's story show why the same archetype transplatented on different spots with different races and contexts can have a different result. This is in-built in the franchise and the audience's expectations for it.

Which is where I think you and me actually both agree here. Especially considering the different values and what not, there should be in lore reasons for why X becomes Y and so on. I feel like the stumbling bit in our discussion here is the fact that you feel like allowing that freedom in general takes away completely from the incentive to have that in the first place. Which I disagree with because freedom in writing doesn't mean the death of creativity. Just like how restrictions in writing doesn't always make for creative decisions because we're having to get around some limit.

It won't make Blizz better writers, but the right approach keeps them from being even worse than their skillset implies.

This might be what it all comes down to in the end. We've seen in the past that, when Blizzard puts the effort into it, they ARE able to create something good. Hell, I still hold Mists in the highest of regard for story for MMOS, not just WoW. But it might just be a problem of what they're being allowed to do on the back end. 'Cool Factor' has almost always won out in Blizzard's stable in the end, but that isn't enough and hasn't been for years. I can't say much for how things are now, as I've not touched the game since BFA (And haven't cared for the lore/story since the end of Mists) but one can only hope that their current change for their future sage will shift the values to improve the stories given instead of just shoving the square into the circle hole by using a jackhammer.

[Unlimited Power]

What's the point of a thread discussing whether or not we're getting forsaken paladins or really any other race/class combo, when we already know straight from the horse's mouth that it's merely a matter of time.

The only reason we don't have shamans, paladins, druids and DH of every race already, is that the classes require racial assets such as totems, class mounts, shapeshift forms, and class specific customization options, animations and metamorphosis form.

Blizzard will undoubtedly dripfeed them into the game with minor content patches (x.y.5/.7) as an additional selling point of the patch.

Lore isn't a concern to Blizzard or most players. Blizzard has outwardly stated continuously that gameplay always trumps lore.

[Shadowferal]

Lore isn't a concern to Blizzard or most players. Blizzard has outwardly stated continuously that gameplay always trumps lore.

You argue in favor of complete dismissal of any reason to be ingame except to what? Look cute and kill things?
Why are you even posting in the Lore if you don't give a damn about Lore to begin with?
Your...lack of reasoning is predicated upon thinking gameplay or story/Lore.
I suggest wrapping your mind around gameplay and story/loreLore. After all you are paying for it.

[Loveliest]

Anyone who says paladin wouldn't suit the Forsaken aesthetic is bereft of imagination.

Oh yeah because that's EXACTLY how they'll look in WoW and is very relevant to WoW's actual aesthetic.

As a side note, not saying they won't add them, but they'll look bad. Hunched over paladin does not look like a paladin. And they'll also have the option to show bones. Tattered paladin armour...

[Vonazak]

Calia is an undead resurrected by the light.

So we can have other undead resurrected by the light.

That means that we can have undead paladin.

[Shadowferal]

Calia is an undead resurrected by the light. So we can have other undead resurrected by the light. That means that we can have undead paladin.

That only means the writing turned to shit.
And as stated in another post, the game has devolved into Blizz writing a few lines of text to justify "anything goes."

[Ersula]

That only means the writing turned to shit.
And as stated in another post, the game has devolved into Blizz writing a few lines of text to justify "anything goes."

You seem new to the fantasy genre.

[Shadowferal]

You seem new to the fantasy genre.

And you seem new to WoW's Lore forum.

[PgStckr]

Aesthetics are the highest priority in WoW, and undead Paladins do not fit the aesthetic of the Forsaken.

Holy Canned Beef.

[Zorgulon]

They would just spontaneously explode, so no, it doesn't make sense.
I see the whole priests and paladin parallels being thrown around a lot, but it's quite inaccurate in how people thing they are the same except one has plate armor and the other hasn't.
What I read a long time ago, was kinda of like this:
Priests use the light by directing it. Kind of like a mirror that can direct light.
Paladins are the lamp.

[LalaGamer]

Calia is an undead resurrected by the light.

So we can have other undead resurrected by the light.

That means that we can have undead paladin.

Calia is not a Foresaken.

[Piamonte]

They would just spontaneously explode, so no, it doesn't make sense.
I see the whole priests and paladin parallels being thrown around a lot, but it's quite inaccurate in how people thing they are the same except one has plate armor and the other hasn't.
What I read a long time ago, was kinda of like this:
Priests use the light by directing it. Kind of like a mirror that can direct light.
Paladins are the lamp.

Forsaken don't explode when they get in contact with the light, they simply feel pain among other unpleseant sensations.

[PgStckr]

They would just spontaneously explode, so no, it doesn't make sense.
I see the whole priests and paladin parallels being thrown around a lot, but it's quite inaccurate in how people thing they are the same except one has plate armor and the other hasn't.
What I read a long time ago, was kinda of like this:
Priests use the light by directing it. Kind of like a mirror that can direct light.
Paladins are the lamp.

I don't want to bring eons-old argument of Sir Zeliek, but I have to.

[Shadowferal]

They would just spontaneously explode, so no, it doesn't make sense. I see the whole priests and paladin parallels being thrown around a lot, but it's quite inaccurate in how people thing they are the same except one has plate armor and the other hasn't. What I read a long time ago, was kinda of like this: Priests use the light by directing it. Kind of like a mirror that can direct light. Paladins are the lamp.

In my revision, Sir Zeliek is in an underground prison below my starting zones in Icecrown, serving as a cautionary example...as well as amusement for undead priests.

[Kallisto]

I think lore wise, they can make it work, because I believe the power of the light hurts forsaken priests so in cannon Lore Forsaken Holy priests are VERY rare, and most forsaken priests are apart of : https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Cul...gotten_Shadows

I think they could some how make it work, Just like how for example, Tauren paladin and priests are instead "Sun worshippers" instead of "Light wielders" The same with Zalandari PRiests/paladins being Loa focused instead of light.

if they sit down and think about it maybe Forsaken paladins could be the "Warriors" of the cult, just like how paladins started out as Warriors of the holy light.

There is a major difference between priest and paladins when it comes to the light. A priest only uses the light as spells, so they feel a split second of the light before it is gone.

A paladin is imbued with the light. The light is inside them 24/7. There's no turning that off.

Also the pain from the light isn't "Oh that smarts." level of pain for the undead. It's "Omfg this is absolutely agonising, I can't believe how painful this is. Please make it stop!" levels. Like jumping into a blast furnace level of heat pain without the nerves in your body burning away making you numb. (Forsaken would actually rather self cremate than face channelled light attacks)

That's the barrier that needs to be addressed for Forsaken paladins. How do you cope with the pain levels that would render you unable to function while, doing basically anything. That's why we've never seen a free willed undead Paladin. Sir Zelik and the undead scarlets were all controlled by other beings.

[MsSideEye]

That only means the writing turned to shit.
And as stated in another post, the game has devolved into Blizz writing a few lines of text to justify "anything goes."

Here's one thing that needs to be said: Just because something is 'New' doesn't mean it's 'Bad'. While yes, Blizzard's writing has ranged from passable to horrible pretty much regularly since Mists, there is some good stories that exist and good ideas that can be cultivated. It's just a matter of highlighting the good, ignoring or retconing the bad, and in general trying to encourage more thought going into stories in the future.

There is a major difference between priest and paladins when it comes to the light. A priest only uses the light as spells, so they feel a split second of the light before it is gone.

A paladin is imbued with the light. The light is inside them 24/7. There's no turning that off.

Also the pain from the light isn't "Oh that smarts." level of pain for the undead. It's "Omfg this is absolutely agonising, I can't believe how painful this is. Please make it stop!" levels. Like jumping into a blast furnace level of heat pain without the nerves in your body burning away making you numb. (Forsaken would actually rather self cremate than face channelled light attacks)

That's the barrier that needs to be addressed for Forsaken paladins. How do you cope with the pain levels that would render you unable to function while, doing basically anything. That's why we've never seen a free willed undead Paladin. Sir Zelik and the undead scarlets were all controlled by other beings.

So here's a question. Where is it in the games that it's said that the Holy light is harmful to the Forsaken, or even the Undead? The best I can remember is an age old Paladin ability that gave bonus damage to Undead enemies. No where do I remember it being stated that the they're harmed by the light being used on them. And keep in mind, this is different from being Weakened on Holy Ground, like the Lich King was when they tried to fight Light's Hope Chapel.

From what I've always seen when it comes to the 'Oh, the light hurts Undead/Forsaken' comes from the same area as 'Death Knights have a hunger for Violence that they need to feed'. IE, from Blue posts about the Devs giving us more information that hasn't come up directly in the game. And if that IS the case for these bits of lore, then I'm going to disregard them as fact. If you're want something to be core to your universe, introduce the idea within the universe at it's core. Don't just go 'Oh, Wizards took a shit anywhere and magiced it away'. Because yes, it will look just as stupid as that statement is.

[Kathranis]

Spotted in the TWW Alpha datamining.

[Aucald]

https://media.mmo-champion.com/image...ril/116034.jpg

Spotted in the TWW Alpha datamining.

I don't think those things are Forsaken - it seems likely they're Light-contaminated zombies or ghouls we'll find in the second or third of the new zones.

[Kathranis]

I don't think those things are Forsaken - it seems likely they're Light-contaminated zombies or ghouls we'll find in the second or third of the new zones.

It's an undead radiating Light from within. Kind of contradicts claims that the would just be destroyed by the Light.

[Aucald]

It's an undead radiating Light from within. Kind of contradicts claims that the would just be destroyed by the Light.

Not anymore, as we now know the Light can cause undeath as it did for Calia Menethil. The issue with the Forsaken specifically as concerns the Light is that they are animated with Shadow-aspected Necromancy, the opposite of the Light, causing a variety of issues when the two energies come into expected conflict. If these undead were raised directly by the Light somehow, that wouldn't be an issue.