Forsaken Paladins, do they make sense?

[Shadowferal]

It's an undead radiating Light from within. Kind of contradicts claims that the would just be destroyed by the Light.

It doesn't contradict the claim that Blizz will fabricate shit reasons for "anything goes."
Indeed, it just reinforces it.

[Piamonte]

Not anymore, as we now know the Light can cause undeath as it did for Calia Menethil. The issue with the Forsaken specifically as concerns the Light is that they are animated with Shadow-aspected Necromancy, the opposite of the Light, causing a variety of issues when the two energies come into expected conflict. If these undead were raised directly by the Light somehow, that wouldn't be an issue.

where are you getting this "shadow aspected necromancy" thing from? i have never heard of that, (usual) necromancy is just death magic, not death magic + void magic.

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There is a major difference between priest and paladins when it comes to the light. A priest only uses the light as spells, so they feel a split second of the light before it is gone.

A paladin is imbued with the light. The light is inside them 24/7. There's no turning that off.

Also the pain from the light isn't "Oh that smarts." level of pain for the undead. It's "Omfg this is absolutely agonising, I can't believe how painful this is. Please make it stop!" levels. Like jumping into a blast furnace level of heat pain without the nerves in your body burning away making you numb. (Forsaken would actually rather self cremate than face channelled light attacks)

That's the barrier that needs to be addressed for Forsaken paladins. How do you cope with the pain levels that would render you unable to function while, doing basically anything. That's why we've never seen a free willed undead Paladin. Sir Zelik and the undead scarlets were all controlled by other beings.

they would suffer like martyrs for their people.

[Aucald]

where are you getting this "shadow aspected necromancy" thing from? i have never heard of that, (usual) necromancy is just death magic, not death magic + void magic.

Necromancy used in Azeroth, especially the Plague of Undeath but also more direct conversion to undeath, has traditionally used Shadow magic to achieve the goal. Death magic itself is almost entirely the province of the Maldraxxi, and confined to the Shadowlands. Margrave Sin'dane herself explains that all of the six primordial forces are capable of fueling Necromantic magic, in presumably their own ways. As per the developers, concerning terrestrial undead like the Forsaken, Ghouls, and Zombies:

The undead are beings who have died and become trapped between life and death. One of the consequences of the involvement of Void in the undead's metaphysics is that they only feel faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli. This is also why the Light is so painful to their existence. The dark energy serves as a buffer that prevents the souls of the undead from properly joining their bodies. As a result, their souls are imperfectly attached to them. (Source)

[Piamonte]

Necromancy used in Azeroth, especially the Plague of Undeath but also more direct conversion to undeath, has traditionally used Shadow magic to achieve the goal. Death magic itself is almost entirely the province of the Maldraxxi, and confined to the Shadowlands. Margrave Sin'dane herself explains that all of the six primordial forces are capable of fueling Necromantic magic, in presumably their own ways. As per the developers, concerning terrestrial undead like the Forsaken, Ghouls, and Zombies:

The undead are beings who have died and become trapped between life and death. One of the consequences of the involvement of Void in the undead's metaphysics is that they only feel faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli. This is also why the Light is so painful to their existence. The dark energy serves as a buffer that prevents the souls of the undead from properly joining their bodies. As a result, their souls are imperfectly attached to them. (Source)

Could you provide the date of that dev statement??, this seems to be a case of very old outdated lore.

[Aucald]

Could you provide the date of that dev statement??, this seems to be a case of very old outdated lore.

It's from 2012, but nothing in Shadowlands changes the nature of how the Forsaken and other undead beings on Azeroth came about. Shadow/Void can create undead beings (e.g. Classic and WoD), the Light can do so (e.g. Calia Menethil), as can Death obviously, and even Life such as with the Botani's undead minions.

[Piamonte]

It's from 2012, but nothing in Shadowlands changes the nature of how the Forsaken and other undead beings on Azeroth came about. Shadow/Void can create undead beings (e.g. Classic and WoD), the Light can do so (e.g. Calia Menethil), as can Death obviously, and even Life such as with the Botani's undead minions.

You are mixing up a lot of stuff; yes, according to that one NPC in shadowlands any source of magic can create undead, but that doesnt change the context of the dev statement. The statement is from 2012, before Chronicles and before Blizzard stated the separation between the 6 great forces and when it talks about the undead, it obviously refer to the undead that we all know, the ones that are the consequence of Arthas actions in W3: scourge, forsaken and mindless undead and as far as we know they were raised using death magic.

When the statement talks about the void is because back then all types of magic (except nature based magic and the light) were one and the same, thats why Archimonde talks about mage stealing their fire before he destroys dalaran or why kelthuzad who was an arcane user learned how to do necromancy or why voidwalkers were demons able to be summoned by warlocks.
There is also the fact that while it no longer makes sense, death knights have always been the counterpart of paladins and if paladins use the light then it comes to reason that death knights use the void to raise the undead, but that isnt really the case, at least not anymore.

[Ersula]

It's from 2012, but nothing in Shadowlands changes the nature of how the Forsaken and other undead beings on Azeroth came about. Shadow/Void can create undead beings (e.g. Classic and WoD), the Light can do so (e.g. Calia Menethil), as can Death obviously, and even Life such as with the Botani's undead minions.

The holy radiation from that Naaru ship in Harrowfall is turning people into light-zombies so this checks out. The magic animating a reborn person can be attuned to any kind of magic.

[Shadowferal]

"Dead" knights.
Again..."anything goes."

[Aucald]

You are mixing up a lot of stuff; yes, according to that one NPC in shadowlands any source of magic can create undead, but that doesnt change the context of the dev statement. The statement is from 2012, before Chronicles and before Blizzard stated the separation between the 6 great forces and when it talks about the undead, it obviously refer to the undead that we all know, the ones that are the consequence of Arthas actions in W3: scourge, forsaken and mindless undead and as far as we know they were raised using death magic.

Almost every pre-Shadowlands source talking about Necromancy references Shadow magic, and not Death - such as the Schools of Arcane Magic - Necromancy, which explicitly refers to harnessing shadows. Mortal Necromancers also wield an array of Shadow-aspects spells and spells that do Shadow damage, e.g. Shadow Bolt and Death Coil. It's not as if Death has supplanted or replaced Shadow as a school of magic, either; both occupy the same rank on the cosmological map of primordial powers. Unless you've got a canon source that says Death has replaced Shadow in every aspect of Undeath, I'm going to stick with established lore and not assume a widespread and pointless retcon to the entirety of Undeath.

When the statement talks about the void is because back then all types of magic (except nature based magic and the light) were one and the same, thats why Archimonde talks about mage stealing their fire before he destroys dalaran or why kelthuzad who was an arcane user learned how to do necromancy or why voidwalkers were demons able to be summoned by warlocks.
There is also the fact that while it no longer makes sense, death knights have always been the counterpart of paladins and if paladins use the light then it comes to reason that death knights use the void to raise the undead, but that isnt really the case, at least not anymore.

I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion/argument before, as well; and as per the above I'm not really seeing any reason to reclassify things. This is also kind of immaterial to the discussion in this thread, as well.

[Piamonte]

Almost every pre-Shadowlands source talking about Necromancy references Shadow magic, and not Death - such as the Schools of Arcane Magic - Necromancy, which explicitly refers to harnessing shadows. Mortal Necromancers also wield an array of Shadow-aspects spells and spells that do Shadow damage, e.g. Shadow Bolt and Death Coil. It's not as if Death has supplanted or replaced Shadow as a school of magic, either; both occupy the same rank on the cosmological map of primordial powers. Unless you've got a canon source that says Death has replaced Shadow in every aspect of Undeath, I'm going to stick with established lore and not assume a widespread and pointless retcon to the entirety of Undeath.



I'm pretty sure we've had this discussion/argument before, as well; and as per the above I'm not really seeing any reason to reclassify things. This is also kind of immaterial to the discussion in this thread, as well.

Many things to address here:

1) that book is from wotlk (pre Chronicles) so outdated lore.
2) Wowwiki is not a good source of lore because it is outdated, you should use wowpedia.
3) the word "shadow" not necesarily means "void", sometimes is just a generic word for "evil", like shadow magic=evil magic.
4) there are many things gameplaywise that are remnants of outdated lore, i already gave you one example, warlocks can summon voidwalkers and they are (or were) tagged as demons despite we fully well know they arent. Shadow bolt is probably just another example of the same.
5) It is possible for a class to use magic from other source other than their own, like druids that use the element of air, despite their main thing being about nature.
6) im not sure about this one but i dont think "death damage" exists in the game (gameplaywise), so it makes sense that it is listed as shadow damage.

and not assume a widespread and pointless retcon to the entirety of Undeath.

7) Death magic suplanted void magic in everything concerning (usual) necromancy and that includes the undead of warcraft 3, this is pretty much common knowledge. To be honest im astonished that you didnt know about this.

Almost every pre-Shadowlands source talking about Necromancy references Shadow magic

Shadowlands was the last expansion we played before the actual one, so it counts as current lore and if you accept that shadowlands establishes that (usual) necromancy is the product of death magic, what is the point of arguing otherwise?.

[Shadowferal]

Lore that isn't consistent, isn't lore. It's an opinion. Such as the Chronicles...or so I recall hearing.

[Aucald]

1) that book is from wotlk (pre Chronicles) so outdated lore.
2) Wowwiki is not a good source of lore because it is outdated, you should use wowpedia.
3) the word "shadow" not necesarily means "void", sometimes is just a generic word for "evil", like shadow magic=evil magic.
4) there are many things gameplaywise that are remnants of outdated lore, i already gave you one example, warlocks can summon voidwalkers and they are (or were) tagged as demons despite we fully well know they arent. Shadow bolt is probably just another example of the same.
5) It is possible for a class to use magic from other source other than their own, like druids that use the element of air, despite their main thing being about nature.
6) im not sure about this one but i dont think "death damage" exists in the game (gameplaywise), so it makes sense that it is listed as shadow damage.

1.) Lore doesn't really get "outdated" unless superseded by a more resent source, which as I said before, is not in evidence here.
2.) The link I provided wasn't to WoWWiki, it was to the Warcraft Wiki, which has itself replaced WoWPedia since WoWPedia was bought out by Fandom and its original admins and main contributors jumped ship. Your information is outdated.
3.) That is neither the context nor implication being made, the text is pretty explicit.
4.) In-game classifications of enemies aren't lore-based, as those can be done for many reasons, which is why many demons are flagged as humanoid in-game, so additional CC can be applied, etc. Shadow Bolt in terms of lore, is explicitly a bolt of Shadow energy and is also used by Shadowmages (obviously).
5.) Which is neither here nor there.
6.) There is also a wide variety of items and enhancements that use "Death" in their title and description, but explicitly relate to Shadow such as the Potion of Rising Death, which "empowers you with shadow magic." Death and Shadow are often as synonymous in terms of lore as they are distinct.

7) Death magic suplanted void magic in everything concerning (usual) necromancy and that includes the undead of warcraft 3, this is pretty much common knowledge. To be honest im astonished that you didnt know about this.

Citation needed.

Shadowlands was the last expansion we played before the actual one, so it counts as current lore and if you accept that shadowlands establishes that (usual) necromancy is the product of death magic, what is the point of arguing otherwise?.

"If" you accept that, which I do not, nor as I've demonstrated is implicitly or explicitly in evidence anywhere. As I said previously, we've had this argument in the past and I have no desire to either rehash a pointless back-and-forth or try to convince you otherwise. Feel free to reply if you wish, but I feel I've said my piece on this matter and am unlikely to respond further.

[Piamonte]

as those can be done for many reasons

Shadow Bolt in terms of lore, is explicitly a bolt of Shadow energy and is also used by Shadowmages (obviously).

One of the reasons is that lore wasnt fleshed out that much and arcane + all evil magics were one and the same, why do you think Guldan could use fel, void and death magic???. There are many remnants of outdated lore in the game, this isnt a secret either, its pretty common knowledge.

Which is neither here nor there.

So druids using air spells means air is nature magic and not elemental magic?

"If" you accept that, which I do not

So Shadowlands expansion just didnt happen, we saw maldraxus that is one of the realm of death, they practice necromancy there, the same necromancy that arthas and every necromancer practices and somehow necromancy is void magic and not death magic??? what??

I've said my piece on this matter

Your piece is pretending that an entire expansion of lore didnt happen.

[Aucald]

So Shadowlands expansion just didnt happen, we saw maldraxus that is one of the realm of death, they practice necromancy there, the same necromancy that arthas and every necromancer practices and somehow necromancy is void magic and not death magic??? what??

You're either committed to intentionally misconstruing what I said, or you simply didn't read what I said if this was your takeaway. To quote Sin'dane from Shadowlands:

Margrave Sin'dane says: Necromancy is the art of animating unliving flesh. Here in Maldraxxus, we use the magic of Death to accomplish our craft.
Margrave Sin'dane says: But whether these rituals are empowered by Death or Light or any other magic, necromancy is necromancy. You perceive a difference where there is none, child.

Sin'dane quite literally says Necromancy can be empowered by any form of magic, and that whether it is empowered by Death, Light, or Shadow Necromancy is Necromancy. Furthermore, she also literally explicates that "in Maldraxxus" they use the magic of Death to accomplish Necromancy, implying (as I both explained and demonstrated) that other realms use other forms of magic to achieve the same goal. So, far from Shadowlands disproving my assertion, it backs it up.

Your piece is pretending that an entire expansion of lore didnt happen.

Only if you're willfully inattentive or missing large swathes of what I said.

[Piamonte]

"in Maldraxxus" they use the magic of Death to accomplish Necromancy

This is the only part that matters, the magic that necromancers in azeroth use comes from maldraxus so its based in death magic, not void magic.

[Shadowferal]

This is the only part that matters, the magic that necromancers in azeroth use comes from maldraxus so its based in death magic, not void magic.

"Death" magic has a vague charm to it that leaves it open in terms of abilities and spellcraft, as it should... it grants just enough definition and flavor while keeping the mystique.

[Aucald]

This is the only part that matters, the magic that necromancers in azeroth use comes from maldraxus so its based in death magic, not void magic.

Depends on what is meant by "magic" in this context - the mechanical usage of Necromancy, or the actual power of Death that insofar as we know is fueled by anima, a power source that doesn't seem to exist outside of the Shadowlands. We do know Necromancy as a magical science was born in Maldraxxus, pioneered by the Primus himself as a discipline. But, as Sin'dane explains, Necromancy can be powered with any form of magical power - meaning that mortal Necromancers can replace Death magic, which may not be accessible outside of the realms of Death, with other powers like Shadow, Arcane, or Light. Sin'dane herself puts the lie to your claim that Shadowlands supposedly retconned WoW and made all Necromancy a product of Death magic explicitly - or else her statement would be nonsensical and Calia's undeath would've been impossible.

[Al Gorefiend]

This is the only part that matters, the magic that necromancers in azeroth use comes from maldraxus so its based in death magic, not void magic.

My takeaway from the shadowlands lore drop was that even if you are a villainous lich raising skeletons from the grave, a Druid or shaman using nature magic to revive an ally, or bringing someone back from the dead via the Holy Light like Tirion did in the Arthas fight. Necromancy is necromancy.
So it gave Calia the confirmation she needed that just because her introduction into Undeath was from the Light, she is still an Undead and thus still a Forsaken. That's the context to Sin'Danes comment

[Piamonte]

Depends on what is meant by "magic" in this context - the mechanical usage of Necromancy, or the actual power of Death that insofar as we know is fueled by anima, a power source that doesn't seem to exist outside of the Shadowlands. We do know Necromancy as a magical science was born in Maldraxxus, pioneered by the Primus himself as a discipline. But, as Sin'dane explains, Necromancy can be powered with any form of magical power - meaning that mortal Necromancers can replace Death magic, which may not be accessible outside of the realms of Death, with other powers like Shadow, Arcane, or Light. Sin'dane herself puts the lie to your claim that Shadowlands supposedly retconned WoW and made all Necromancy a product of Death magic explicitly - or else her statement would be nonsensical and Calia's undeath would've been impossible.

This is mental gymnastics, the power of death has existed outside of shadowlands since warcraft 3, we know for a fact that the lich king powers come from there and every undead and necromancer in azeroth can trace its roots to the lich king. The necromancy that people in Azeroth practice is the same as the shadowlands, why do you think that the scourge have liches and abominations, the same as maldraxus.

The context of the Sin´dane quote is that it is a part of a conversation with Calia and Calia being a light undead is a recent development in lore, every undead that came before her all the way back until warcraft 3 was raised by the same magic they practice in shadowlands.

[Silvador]

Srsly, isn't forsaken paladins death knights?