[TWW spoiler] Dalaran, Khadgar and Silvermoon

[Combatbutler]

The thing is that nightborne were much closer, having some "healed" nightborne become night elves, o Thalysra herself having a night elf model in her flashback cinematic. Suramar was also the birthplace of some of the older night elves like Tyrande. If you consider highborne as part of night elves (playable and npc night elf mages), I don't see the suramar elves that much different and are directly related, unlike blood elves wich are a further down evolution after thousands of years, similar to trolls related to night elves. The difference between (highborne) NE and nightborne would be closer to the one between void elves and blood elves in my opinion.

The difference between night elf highborne and Blood/High elves is usually between three to just a single generation, so hardly anything to be honest. But they are still their own thing

[Aucald]

I'm not sure why you don't. I have always considered the Silver Covenant, the Void Elf Faction and the Sin'dorei all part of the high elf (race) or you could call it Blood elf (as that's the main playable faction if you are considering blood elf as the name of the high elf race, not faction) story. In most peoples minds, the race is called blood elf as that's what they know them as mostly, high elf are for those who do their homework or played/read the pre-TBC material

The void elves would be under the blood elf and high elf category. I usually call it the high elf race because that's what they were called first, and yes, blood elves are slightly mutated, and void elves even more so, but they are essentially high elven subraces or blood elven subraces..

So it is with the Nightborne, they are a night elven sub-race, so it with the Highmountain too, a Tauren sub-race - these are all groups that are modelled after and part of playable races that blizzard varies. yes they are their own peoples, nations even, but like Worgen ae considered human to me, I consider NIghtborne, night elven - notice the small letters used, this denotes race and not faction. We don't use capital letters when referring to a race, only to a faction or nation... this is why you willl often see high elf and night elf in small letters, but never Highborne o..

Separation of story and gameplay is a factor when you discuss lore. The Silver Covenant is a group of High Elves, but the Void Elves and the Sin'dorei are definitively not High Elves nor claim to be. In terms of lore, the designation of High Elf has always had a political patina - the High Elves came to label themselves such due to their exile from Kalimdor in the wake of the War of the Ancients, a legacy of being the original Highborne of the ancient Night Elven society. The later designation of Blood Elf, too; is a largely political one - but it is important in terms of the overall elven narrative. The Void Elven split is also a political one, albeit with the added distinction of the Ren'dorei having been altered or mutated by the Void. But even still, they came to call themselves the Ren'dorei as a political statement to set themselves apart from their former Blood Elven kin (and also change allegiances from Horde to Alliance to boot).

Not the Darnassian Aucald, it has nothing to do with them, we were annoyed about that during Legion and made our displeasure known, because the Darnassian faction was almost invisible. Sentinels play little to no role, Malfurion and Tyrande are not there in their capacity as alliance or Darnassian leaders, Malfurion is there as a druid and leader of that class, not as joint leader of the Night Elves (capitals) we commonly refer to as the Darnassians. So to is Tyrande.

I don't think there is such as thing as "the Darnassian faction" from a story standpoint. I mean if you want to be overly pedantic about classification, sure; Night Elves hailing from Darnassus are few in terms of the Val'Sharah story arc - but why make the distinction? The denizens of Val'Sharah belong to the modern Night Elven faction as much as the former denizens of Darnassus do. Ditto for the Night Elves in Feathermoon Stronghold, or out in the field anywhere else in Azeroth.

The faction only appears in that capacity during Suramar - and it was terribly underwhelming.. the Night Elves who have bravely defeated the Legion twice, that same people who became a faction of their own during that event, had been present and very active , were cut out of the expansion focused on their race and ancient enemies. Sure Malfurion was there, Tyrande too, who's broken shore questline was cut out of the game. Illidan was also there and he played an influential role, but as an Illidari, leader of his faction .. not as The Night Elves. All the night elven factions of which the Nightborne are one, were all neutral and they are not the same as the Darnassians.

Dreamweavers, Farondis Nightborne, Nightfallen and Moonguard are not part of the Night Elves (or Darnassians as I like to call them). The Wardens do not appear in their capacity as alliance people.. do you not see the difference?

I see the misplaced application of in-game faction allegiance as a false demarcator, yes; but it's not one I agree with. The Night Elves in Val'Sharah are "neutral" as a game contrivance, and little else. Same with the Wardens, the Court of Farondis, the Moon Guard, and so on. They're neutral in the story so that both in-game factions can participate more or less equally in their storylines on offer. But, from a lore standpoint, the Wardens belong to Night Elven society - and as we know from the story itself, it's not as if Maiev is known for her tender feelings toward the Horde, as she is later an Alliance boss in a faction-specific battleground. This is basic separation of gameplay and story once more.

He has NOTHING to do with the Night Elves (i.e. Darnassians), but yes he is a night elf.

A distinction without a difference.

There is a difference between race and faction that use the same name colloquially. Tyrande often talks about the kaldorei this and the kaldorei that, as m people, but strictly speaking it only refers to the faction she has lead since the sundering, not the entire race, and we both know it.

Tyrande's use of "my people" as a rhetorical device is neither here nor there, insofar as that goes. That being said, the Night Elves of Val'Sharah know and respect her as equally as those in Darnassus do - hell, many of them probably know her personally, she's originally from the area and more than 10,000 years old at that point. I would assume some Night Elven groups might question her claim, too; but that's internal politics for you.

Again, the night elves (as in the race), not the Night Elves (i.e. Darnassinas), also unrelated to them. The zones quests are all about night elves - as in race, not the faction we play .. for crying out loud man, this was a major talking point on the EU forums back in Legion, how can you do a legion and night elf expansion and just cut the alliance faction almost entirely out of any action. No Darnassian armies,, no rallying like in Wc3 or in wotA - instead we get these other new factions.. and all the way up to Antorus, they are almost entirely missing. Suramar retaking in 7.1 is the only place they show up.

I would see this as yet another unnecessary and seemingly intentionally confusing distinction without a difference. Also, the notion that Legion "cut the alliance faction almost entirely out of any action" is completely wrong on its face - the Alliance can do the content as well, they're not cut out of anything. Having to share content with the Horde doesn't cut anyone out, and vice-versa is equally true for Horde-centric storylines like much of WoD where the Alliance plays an equal role. This is just jingoistic partisan claptrap, in my view.

Off course I do, you and a few members that support the horde don't seem to understand the distinction I was making - but it might be because I am European and you are American, you people use the term Race like we use ethnicity. Warcraft calls them playable races, but half of the time they are actually just playable factions. It uses the term faction to denote the horde and alliance. I allow context to distinguish the meaning.

No, I'm pretty sure both use the terms race and ethnicity the same way - the way the term "race" is used in WoW isn't technically correct, because the "races" in WoW are often entirely different species of beings. The difference between Mulgore and Highmountain Tauren would be a racial distinction, most likely; the difference between humans and orcs would be a species divide - orcs are even extraterrestrial insofar as Azeroth is concerned, making the divide even deeper. If you want to make the distinction between playable in-game races and in-game nationalities, groups, or cultures you need to be explicit about, and not mix your metaphors to confuse your intent. When I talk about Night Elves, I'm not using in-game distinctions of playable Night Elves solely from Darnassus to define what "Night Elves" are. I mean any and all Night Elves who were originally part of the cultural revolution after the War of the Ancients were the Kaldorei began eschewing the Arcane and adopted naturalism and the Druidic arts as cultural mainstays. Whether or not said Night Elf is flagged as Alliance, neutral, or even Horde is immaterial in that sense.

I am fully aware that Lightforged and normal draenei are two different races( in the way Americans use it), but essentially they are different to how black Africans are different to white Europeans (bearing in mind you do have white Africans and black Europeans)

I don't know that I'd say that, myself; though. Nor do I think the "normal" Draenei would make such a consideration, either. If anything, the Lightforged Draenei would probably be thought of as elite or prestigious among the wider population of Draenei - thought of as individuals who made the extra step of committing to the Light on a more profound level. I don't think a non-Lightforged Draenei would look at their Lightforged cousin and say "This guy is now a different race from me."

Nightborne are the night elf sub-race, Void Eves are the Blood Elf subraces - they are not genetically a near match to blood elves because of the void alteration, but they would have a similar racial variation to them that say a black person has to a white person - but wow never defined what degree of transformation crosses what line. WE cannot be that precise.

Sure we can, it's quite easy:

• The Nightborne no longer identify with or consider themselves modern Kaldorei - they gave themselves a new name and identity, the Shal'dorei or Nightborne, to underscore that shift in cultural identity. They are further altered by their use of the Nightwell and show phenotypical variation from their ancestral origin. They are not Night Elves now. They are a new nation of people unto themselves.
• The Void Elves no longer identify with or consider themselves modern Sin'dorei - they gave themselves a new name and identity, the Ren'dorei or Void Elves, to underscore that shift in cultural identity. They are further altered by the Void and show phenotypical variation from their origin. They are not Blood Elves now. They are a new nation of people unto themselves.

The only occasion I would call either of these groups a "subrace" would be in discussing their genealogy, but in the context of Warcraft, that's a deeply murky pool better left to the developers to discern. The Nightborne and Void Elves could be seen as distinct species due to the extent of their magical alterations and mutations - so calling them a "subrace" of Night Elves or Blood/High Elves could be a taxonomical error. We simply don't know that, and it's best to use the demarcations already apparent, in the form of self-identification.

[Mace]

She's a void elf right?

She is the voud elf racial leader right?

Is she the protagonist of tww?

Umbric is receiving a new model, right?

and telogrus is updated, right?

So this is an expa focused on the alliance and with the void elves as protagonists

That doenst' qualify it as avoid elf expansion. It's not a night elf expansion iif Tyrande is involved in it as a High Priestess or as a wife .. it's a night elf expansion if it's about NIght elvesthe race, their home, thier lands, their history.

Legion is a night elf expansion becuase it's about night elf lands and cultures and the night elf main nemesis the Legion, It's not a Draenei expansion because Draenei were involved in the last patch and we went to the Draenei homeworld, it's not a human expansion because Khadgar is the lead NPC character and Dalaran the players' hub.


Get it?

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I also remember that in Valshra the shadowsong siblings meet and manage to reconcile. that's also night elf lore

Nightborne is their own race

Yes, that is night elf lore off course, anything that has to do with the night elf race as a whole is night elf lore. All the Nightborne material is night elf lore the same way as ALL the void elf material is high elf lore. It is also Void Elf lore, but that is part of the wider high elf lore. It isn't factionally High Elf lore, because the Void Elves are a different faction, but it is racially high elf lore.

Yes the Val'Sharah quest in the Gilenan village have to do with night elves, but not specifically the Darnassians.. sure Maiev and Jarod count themselves as such, but the context of the zone and the quests, makes it not Darnassian lore,though night elven lore if you can spot the difference.

[Aucald]

The thing is that nightborne were much closer, having some "healed" nightborne become night elves, o Thalysra herself having a night elf model in her flashback cinematic. Suramar was also the birthplace of some of the older night elves like Tyrande. If you consider highborne as part of night elves (playable and npc night elf mages), I don't see the suramar elves that much different and are directly related, unlike blood elves wich are a further down evolution after thousands of years, similar to trolls related to night elves. The difference between (highborne) NE and nightborne would be closer to the one between void elves and blood elves in my opinion.

Wait, when did any Nightborne "heal" back into a Night Elf? The Nightborne were once Night Elves, the same way the High and Blood Elves were once Night Elves before they left Kalimdor. Thalyssra, in the flashback to the time of the War of the Ancients, was herself a Night Elf too. But that changed over the centuries as the Nightwell affected them, and the Nightborne chose to acknowledge the change and formalize it into a new political identity - taking Suramar City with them as they did. To what degree they're different is something of a meaningless distinction next to the fact that they formalized this break in their shared identity, something that now both the Shal'dorei and Kaldorei recognize as occurring. Even if the Shal'dorei hadn't been physically or genetically altered by the Nightwell, the ideological split alone is enough to qualify them as a new nationality.

[Mace]

The thing is that nightborne were much closer, having some "healed" nightborne become night elves, o Thalysra herself having a night elf model in her flashback cinematic. Suramar was also the birthplace of some of the older night elves like Tyrande. If you consider highborne as part of night elves (playable and npc night elf mages), I don't see the suramar elves that much different and are directly related, unlike blood elves wich are a further down evolution after thousands of years, similar to trolls related to night elves. The difference between (highborne) NE and nightborne would be closer to the one between void elves and blood elves in my opinion.

THat's because they aren't that different... it depends on how we view the difference and where we place it.

I love using the analogy.. because i know some of these players somehow tend to think differently when it comes to elves.

As void elves are to blood elves, so are Nightborne to night elves.

Everyone knows when they are palying Nightborne they are playing a night elven race on the horde, or rather horde night elves. Do people view the samething when they play void elves, thathtey are paying alliance blood elves? WEll, they are from a point of view..obviously elven players are too proud and would never put it that way for the elves they play, narrowing down on the precise definitions. But effectively, blizzard gave the night elf variation to the horde and the blood elf variation to the alliance.

Void elves are part of the high elf lore, and Nightborne a part of the night elf lore.

I mean, kaldorei empire, Suramar, nightwell, fanged 7 foot tall elves with purple skin that are nocturnal and live in a kaldorei city - so they 're skinnier and mostof their ear tips curve upward rather than tapering - it's the only visual changes... like most allied races who have 1-3 minor variaitions on the main race they are connected to.

When I pick up a Nightborne I know I'm playing a Nightborne , I also no I'm playing the modified version of a pre-sundering night elf. I'm playing night elven civilziation version of the race that has a slightly different look.. but that's what I'm playing. The group hasn't joined the rest of the race or rather the majority of the race aligned with the alliance, and has instead struck out with the horde. It is exactly the same as the void elves, that group hasn't joined the majority of the race on the horde, but returned to the original race's first faction alliance, all beit in a slightly modified form.

[Alanar]

I don't consider the modern Nightborne story arc to be a Night Elven story myself - the demarcation between the two groups is too much, despite sharing a common ancestry. This is pretty much the same way I consider the High/Blood Elves and Night Elves as having their own unique and separate storylines, although they too like the Nightborne share common ancestry with the ancient Night Elves. They're different groups now, each with their own unique role to play in the overarching narrative.

I think we have been discussing that many times already. Which had the same conclusions as now I see.

I also wouldnt consider a Nightborne story a night elf story
They are currently so far apart and are simply not night elves anymore.

[Aucald]

Everyone knows when they are palying Nightborne they are playing a night elven race on the horde, or rather horde night elves. Do people view the samething when they play void elves, thathtey are paying alliance blood elves? WEll, they are from a point of view..obviously elven players are too proud and would never put it that way for the elves they play, narrowing down on the precise definitions. But effectively, blizzard gave the night elf variation to the horde and the blood elf variation to the alliance.

See, this is yet another example of engaging in partisan squabbling under the mask of a lore argument. From a lore standpoint, a Nightborne PC is not a "Horde Night Elf" just like a Void Elf is not an "Alliance Blood Elf." These are just partisan jabs meant to convey sour grapes about in-game faction balance complaints - you should not confuse them with actual lore, or construe from them that Nightborne are actual Night Elves or Void Elves are actual Blood Elves, etc. This is the forum for primarily lore-based discussion and debate - where we deal with the actual story of WoW, not partisan bickering over gameplay demographics.

[Alanar]

THat's because they aren't that different... it depends on how we view the difference and where we place it.
.

I am not sure how relevant or usefull that aproach is.

Its clear what they are and how we should treat and call them. That is not dependable on anything, nor is there much room for debate there.

[Rhlor]

That doenst' qualify it as avoid elf expansion. It's not a night elf expansion iif Tyrande is involved in it as a High Priestess or as a wife .. it's a night elf expansion if it's about NIght elvesthe race, their home, thier lands, their history.

Legion is a night elf expansion becuase it's about night elf lands and cultures and the night elf main nemesis the Legion, It's not a Draenei expansion because Draenei were involved in the last patch and we went to the Draenei homeworld, it's not a human expansion because Khadgar is the lead NPC character and Dalaran the players' hub.


Get it?

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Yes, that is night elf lore off course, anything that has to do with the night elf race as a whole is night elf lore. All the Nightborne material is night elf lore the same way as ALL the void elf material is high elf lore. It is also Void Elf lore, but that is part of the wider high elf lore. It isn't factionally High Elf lore, because the Void Elves are a different faction, but it is racially high elf lore.

Yes the Val'Sharah quest in the Gilenan village have to do with night elves, but not specifically the Darnassians.. sure Maiev and Jarod count themselves as such, but the context of the zone and the quests, makes it not Darnassian lore,though night elven lore if you can spot the difference.

It is true legion is not a draenei expa but 7.3 is a focused draenei patch
Jarod and Maiev are night elves darnassian so whatever happens to them ls lore darnassian night elf.
Alleria is a void elf and the void elf racial leader her lore is void elf lore. She is the protagonist of the expa, which makes this expa focused on void elf lore. in addition to having updates in telogrus and the umbric model.

What you won't be able to deny me is that this is an expa focused on the alliance

[allegrian]

Saying that the nightborne story/world building is not night elf world building is like saying the Arathi in TWW is not human world building. Sure, they are a different branch than classic warctaft humans, but are the same race, have very similar themes and have a common ancestry. On the other hand, Night elf ruins or Suramar don't feel like blood elf stories or world building, given how different their aesthetics and races are even if they have the common ancestry. Something similar happens to trolls/night elf/blood elf.

And yeah, zandalar was troll story and world building even if they don't look exactly like darkspear have some differences in easthetics. Of course nightborne and zandalar are their own civilisation/faction now, different to NE and trolls, but they share story and world building and that's what I'm saying.

Similarly, earthen will probably share a lot with normal dwarves even if they are different civilisations, and we didn't have dwarven themes as a focus since basically ulduar in wotlk, while we've had important night elven stuff in cata, legion, bfa, SL and DF.

[Zodiark]

It'd be sad to loose the dalaran aesthetic forever, it's such a core part of wow mage's identity and symbolism (the eye, purple...). I'd be ok if they make a dalaran district in quel'thalas maintaining its aesthetic, but I'd prefer if dalaran is not fully destroyed or they remake it for TLT or another future expansion.

Also killing khadgar is sad, man. Who will be the guardian now?

well in some sense Dalaran is and always will be there, albiet in an alternate timeline which is totally a thing with the whole Bronze Dragonflight timelines.

[Vonazak]

And yeah, zandalar was troll story and world building even if they don't look exactly like darkspear have some differences in easthetics. Of course nightborne and zandalar are their own civilisation/faction now, different to NE and trolls, but they share story and world building and that's what I'm saying.

A minor correction. The Zandalari do not share worldbuilding with the Darkspear. The Darkspeak never had that much lore to begin with, even a random Gurubashi tribe is more important lore-wise.

The Darkspear are a minor tribe, Barely relevant. The Amani, for example, have 10x the lore they have.

And even then, the Darkpear are nothing but a footnote when it comes to Troll lore, they don't have history.

[Aucald]

Saying that the nightborne story/world building is not night elf world building is like saying the Arathi in TWW is not human world building. Sure, they are a different branch than classic warctaft humans, but are the same race, have very similar themes and have a common ancestry. On the other hand, Night elf ruins or Suramar don't feel like blood elf stories or world building, given how different their aesthetics and races are even if they have the common ancestry. Something similar happens to trolls/night elf/blood elf.

I don't think we know enough about these new Arathi humans in TWW to make that claim one way or the other. On the surface, at least; they seem to be humans and don't appear to think of themselves of anything but - so yeah, on that level, you could say their story is part of the overarching story of humans in WoW. This is emphatically *not* the case with the Nightborne, as they both literally and figuratively set themselves apart from their former culture physically, culturally, aesthetically, and politically. Suppose these new Arathi do similarly, no longer considering themselves either Arathi or human for that matter. In that case, their story won't be a human story - it'll be whatever they choose to identify as a story instead.

And yeah, zandalar was troll story and world building even if they don't look exactly like darkspear have some differences in easthetics. Of course nightborne and zandalar are their own civilisation/faction now, different to NE and trolls, but they share story and world building and that's what I'm saying.

The Zandalari are still trolls - they are, in fact, the original trolls from which all other troll offshoots like the Darkspear derive. I also don't think anyone ever thought the Zandalari's overarching story wasn't a troll one, either. The Zandalari also don't hold themselves apart from the cultural identifier of being trolls, either. By contrast, they consider themselves to be the preeminent form of trollkind.

Similarly, earthen will probably share a lot with normal dwarves even if they are different civilisations, and we didn't have dwarven themes as a focus since basically ulduar in wotlk, while we've had important night elven stuff in cata, legion, bfa, SL and DF.

That will largely depend on how these new earthen present themselves, and how they identify. Thus far, their culture seems pretty distinct, although with its fair share of similarities too. I don't consider the earthen and the dwarves to be indistinct, though; so it'll be interesting to see how these earthen quantify themselves within the story being a sort of a "missing link" between the automaton earthen so far seen in WoW and the societies of the Ironforge, Dark Iron, and Wildhammer dwarves.

[bloodykiller86]

So looks like Dalaran might be going down in TWW, and Khadgar being lost. With Midnight developing Silvermoon and all the elf races coming together, my suspicion is Quel'thalas and Silvermoon are going to be the new global centre for magic.

All the elf groups will also be involved some how, this includes the night elven Highborne and Nightborne magical groups, neither of which seem to be playing much of a role in Amirdrassil - which to me indicates they will play a role alongside the void elves, high elves and blood elves, and presumably the human and draenei mages will be based there also ..

Silvermoon might become the Shattrath/Dalaran of 12.0 and be a home for high, void, blood, night, nightborne elves. - of the magical persuasion or rather into and centred around magic.

would be nice if we restored Dire Maul as it used to be home to the shendrelar which are now part of the night elves instead.

[allegrian]

A minor correction. The Zandalari do not share worldbuilding with the Darkspear. The Darkspeak never had that much lore to begin with, even a random Gurubashi tribe is more important lore-wise.

The Darkspear are a minor tribe, Barely relevant. The Amani, for example, have 10x the lore they have.

And even then, the Darkpear are nothing but a footnote when it comes to Troll lore, they don't have history.

Yeah it's pretty sad if you think about it. At this point it would be better if they merge many troll races into the playable "troll" instead of insisting on the darkspear. Like they did with the wildhammer and bronzebeard dwarves. Azeroth has tons of zones, ruins and lore about different troll tribes and the (original) playable one had nothing.

[Holdodlig]

I can dream of a situation where we loose at the end of The War Within, and during Midnight Silvermoon and Lordaeron become the last bastion against the Void. We then use the energy of the Sunwell to purify Azeroth, but by doing so we also bring the attention of the Titans who simply want to reset the planet which would lead to The Last Titan.

[Aucald]

I can dream of a situation where we loose at the end of The War Within, and during Midnight Silvermoon and Lordaeron become the last bastion against the Void. We then use the energy of the Sunwell to purify Azeroth, but by doing so we also bring the attention of the Titans who simply want to reset the planet which would lead to The Last Titan.

Based on some of what we know about the greater Worldsoul Saga as a whole, this seems likely. We know we're not going to defeat the forces of the Void in TWW because they're going to be besieging the Sunwell in Midnight following TWW, although that doesn't necessarily mean Xal'atath will continue leading the charge as the Harbinger of the Void as it were. Similarly, during Metzen's keynote speech during the BlizzCon '23 reveal he mentions that the last installment of the saga, The Last Titan, will result as a last-ditch desperation ploy that will somehow bring the Pantheon back to Azeroth for a final reckoning, whatever that entails.

[allegrian]

What if the titans partially remake azeroth in TLT and thus bring forth the world revamp? lol.

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Based on some of what we know about the greater Worldsoul Saga as a whole, this seems likely. We know we're not going to defeat the forces of the Void in TWW because they're going to be besieging the Sunwell in Midnight following TWW, although that doesn't necessarily mean Xal'atath will continue leading the charge as the Harbinger of the Void as it were. Similarly, during Metzen's keynote speech during the BlizzCon '23 reveal he mentions that the last installment of the saga, The Last Titan, will result as a last-ditch desperation ploy that will somehow bring the Pantheon back to Azeroth for a final reckoning, whatever that entails.

Metzen mentioned a "conspiracy", which right now could very well mean they are simply evil and always have been, DF lore books and overall theme of incarnates vs titans is a clear set up. But there could be a twist to what we expect.

[Syegfryed]

losing multicultured dalaran and make silvermoon a multiculred and multiracial place? no thanks

I hope Metzen don't fuck it up making Quel'thalas and Silvermoon "neutral", i hate how everything is "neutral", might as well just remove factions all together to spare time.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The elves coming together in Silvermoon ?

That doesn't sound like a good idea to me, especially for the Night Elves.