Hunters & Raiding: Why are we so unwanted?

[Darth Belichick]

Feign death eh? Jesus man, I cant tell you how many times i've seen feign death resisted and the raid wiped because of it. Feign death is not the most desireable way to deal with hunter threat generation. In order for feign death to be effective, hunters need to use it long before they pull aggro and not once the boss pulls to you.

Duh, but you make it sound like it's hard for us to control threat. If your raid uses Omen, it's even easier. If Feign Death resists, you slow down damage for a little bit. It's not that hard.

[ilpadrino]

The question was why hunter werent well liked in raids.

My reference to hunters having a hard time controlling aggro was refering to the fact that when a really good hunter is pouring on the DPS, its very easy for him to crit spike even while using Omen. A well geared hunter can spike 3 or 4 hits in a row and its see ya later. If a hunter isnt pushing the aggro table he isnt doing crap for DPS, so the conflict is Lots of DPS = Manapuke/Threat Generation. Its a dangerous class to play well in a raid, and good hunters are a hard find.

Ryas, I know you are on top of your game, I checked your website out. I was simply tryin to let the OP know why hunters are sometimes shunned for a mage or lock.

-ilpad

[Shadowclaimer]

The question was why hunter werent well liked in raids.

My reference to hunters having a hard time controlling aggro was refering to the fact that when a really good hunter is pouring on the DPS, its very easy for him to crit spike even while using Omen. A well geared hunter can spike 3 or 4 hits in a row and its see ya later. If a hunter isnt pushing the aggro table he isnt doing crap for DPS, so the conflict is Lots of DPS = Manapuke/Threat Generation. Its a dangerous class to play well in a raid, and good hunters are a hard find.

Ryas, I know you are on top of your game, I checked your website out. I was simply tryin to let the OP know why hunters are sometimes shunned for a mage or lock.

-ilpad

Mages don't get an aggro dump, invisibility resets your aggro back to how it was a few seconds after coming out =( (trust me I've tried)

[CreativeInstitute]

Mages don't get an aggro dump, invisibility resets your aggro back to how it was a few seconds after coming out =( (trust me I've tried)

What? Mages invisibility spell drops all aggro. I know this for two reasons:

1. When I use it in a raid, I'm off the aggro list (not even at the very bottom).

2. When I'm just questing and aggro too many mobs, I nova, invis, and all the mobs reset.

It's a total 100% aggro wipe, if you don't get hit before it comes into effect.

[Durahal]

I believe the mechanics behind invisibility is:

For each second the 5 second fade counter ticks, is 10% agro reduction from your current TOTAL agro.

After the 5 second fade timer it becomes a 100% agro DROP - unless your interupted during fade :-[

[Shadowclaimer]

Odd in a five man I used invisibility once, faded out, and instantly cancelled it once it completed, and I was right back on the aggro list at the same point when I casted something, and pulled aggro.

Then again this was awhile back like right after TBC's release o.O probably changed since then.

[Crazyshots]

Hunter's aren't unwanted on our server or in my guild. We will bring 1 or 3 Hunters along depending on how many turn up.

The usual thought is that Hunter's don't bring as much to a raid as other dps classes but that isn't true IMO.

I am 31/30 Mm/Surv spec and have great rap and crit and do good damage indivdually. But I also bring:

TSA - extra AP for my party.
Scorpid Sting - 5% to miss for the boss or mob (More useful than peops realise)
I use Carrion Bird which Screech (which is always up as I have GftT ) - reduces AP of boss or mob
More armor and HP than most casters with longest range so usually require less healing.
Misdirection - great for pulling to a particular target and helping tank get aggro back when he loses it.
Traps - good if used properly and reduced CD along with 2 pieces of BM armor means most mobs can be continually trapped. Not everything can be banished or sheeped but if not immune to either of these then they can all be trapped.

Individually, they aren't great but every bit helps and when added up our utility for the raid isn't as bad as peops seem to think.

They could buff Hunter utility very easily by increasing AP of TSA, letting Scorpid Stng stack, reduce CD of traps in PVE, let AotViper regen mana for all your party etc. but we will have to wait and see what Blizzard decide to do with us.

This confirms what I was saying, you need hunters, it does make your life easier, but a raid is fine with 2 hunters, and any extra ones wouldn't be neccesary. Vipre stinger regen mana, that's true, but you really would want a shadow priest for that job with your casters (mages especially), also shadow priests bring with them an insane dmg buff for shadow dmg and a 5% one for all spells... compared to that, the 3% extra dmg from a hunter (and that's only for his party) doesn't seem as usefull. So basically once u have a hunter in your melee dps group, and one in your tank group (for 25man), u don't rly need anymore as other spot will be better filled with other classes (the more casters u have the more dmg they can stack with from shadow priests Shadow Vul. and that 5% spell dmg increase, from locks the curses of shadow and element, from mages scortch and that 10% crit from frost, then bonuses would be a enhancment shammy or a boomkin)

Shadow priests also require debuff slots to dps with. While hunters need a few Expose, Hunters Mark they are more raid dps oriented than individual. We have some crappy nights were we have 5 warlocks and 2 shadow priests, its not fun to see debuff fall off every time you put it up, lol.

[Helios]

Feign death eh? Jesus man, I cant tell you how many times i've seen feign death resisted and the raid wiped because of it. Feign death is not the most desireable way to deal with hunter threat generation. In order for feign death to be effective, hunters need to use it long before they pull aggro and not once the boss pulls to you.

I won't argue feign gets resisted more often than it should but you shouldn't be feigning when u reach ort pass your tank on the threat meters, it should be a bit before.

Like I said a few days ago, I've been MM for a long time and always dogged BM because i felt like i wasn't doing my own damage and relying on my pet to do it for me, but after being MM for ever I switch and my damage went up and not just as little bit. We have a rogue and mage that usually are top 2 every week in kara by about 2-3% over number 3, now i am usually number 1-2 no problem. I'd rather be MM to have TSA to give more raid utility but I cant argue the fact that my increase in damage is contributing more than if i did less damage while slightly increasing my parties damage. I'd really like to put myself against a like geared or better MM and see if they could beat me.

[Magentard]

I run BM in Black Temple, My dps is fine. One of the highest dps players on the US server system is a BM hunter on Laughing Skull Named Djinn, guild Dues Vox. Hunters are comparable dps if played right at any level, you don't run out of mana it is called Fel Mana Potion and Aspect of the viper when needed.

Obviously alot of you have seen poorly played hunters. Itemization, gear choices, and shot timing make or break a hunter. My gear sucks in comparison to my guild. I just transfered to Nazjatar, give me like a month and I will get you some screen shots of dps, when in >t4 gear.

Hunters are awesome raid utility and dps. Misdirection increases the overall dps of the raid immensly used properly, it is also key for alot of pulls. I could go on for an hour about how useful hunters are but I have to go to work.

Magentard, Nazjatar US Horde

[Shadowclaimer]

I can't take anything a member of Deus Vox does seriously.

The guild does BT only because it buys gold, therefor its a no duh that hes on top and is doing so well, seeing as he just instantly is given all your craftables, potions, elixirs, and flasks.

Not to mention they make great use of their tier 6, ganking lowbies in hillsbrad all day..

[Elvose]

I can't take anything a member of Deus Vox does seriously.

The guild does BT only because it buys gold, therefor its a no duh that hes on top and is doing so well, seeing as he just instantly is given all your craftables, potions, elixirs, and flasks.

Not to mention they make great use of their tier 6, ganking lowbies in hillsbrad all day..

So, you can't farm enough money for all your consumables? is that what you're saying?

And if i had T6, i'd sure as hell like to get a 6K aimed shot on a level 23 mage walking around hillsbrad.

[Shadowclaimer]

No its not that, its the fact that they buy enough gold to where they can have flasks and elixirs 24/7 and then some, not to mention buy all the epic craftables mats free for their guildies and new members.

They cheat at the game, the rest of us work for our gear and flasks, they don't, I don't think its humanly possible to farm the amount of gold they have (well it is, it had to have been done in order for them to buy it, but you get my point)

and personally, I don't find it amusing at all, try being that 29 mage getting ganked 24/7 in hillsbrad and having to level without the zone at all.. which makes its it a pain in the ass to get to where you can survive in Arathi.. because of them I had to grind out 3-4 levels in Ashenvale.. which three of them came out there and camped Splintertree about 3 hours at a time a few times a night..

[Helios]

And thats why we have PvE servers thank god. yes it may be pansie but atleast i have fun questing not having to watch my back all the time.

[Shadowclaimer]

Thats why I'm moving to an RP server lol.. tired of all the ganking.. doesn't help that Alliance-side Laughing Skull gives all Alliance a horrible name..

[Coconuter]

No its not that, its the fact that they buy enough gold to where they can have flasks and elixirs 24/7 and then some, not to mention buy all the epic craftables mats free for their guildies and new members.

They cheat at the game, the rest of us work for our gear and flasks, they don't, I don't think its humanly possible to farm the amount of gold they have (well it is, it had to have been done in order for them to buy it, but you get my point)

and personally, I don't find it amusing at all, try being that 29 mage getting ganked 24/7 in hillsbrad and having to level without the zone at all.. which makes its it a pain in the ass to get to where you can survive in Arathi.. because of them I had to grind out 3-4 levels in Ashenvale.. which three of them came out there and camped Splintertree about 3 hours at a time a few times a night..

Welcome to pvp, you sign up for it when you join those servers and walk into contested terriotory.

I'm on the Darkspear server, and even my main in tier 4 and 5 gets ganked by serveral horde pretty often when im farming, thats just how pvp servers are.

And as for buying gold, its w/e they can waste their real life money. Farming for a couple hours a day and i never have problems buying the best enchants and having plenty of elixers, flasks and food (granted i dont have an epic flyer).

And as for the hunter thing, most hunters are noobs that dont know how to play. If they played like this guy http://youtube.com/watch?v=lUNeMpUh_Cs then more hunters would be wanted in raids.

That is a short fight so yes, his mana isnt in that big of need, and yes i know he gets a buff at the end but so does the rest of the raid.

[Helios]

No its not that, its the fact that they buy enough gold to where they can have flasks and elixirs 24/7 and then some, not to mention buy all the epic craftables mats free for their guildies and new members.

They cheat at the game, the rest of us work for our gear and flasks, they don't, I don't think its humanly possible to farm the amount of gold they have (well it is, it had to have been done in order for them to buy it, but you get my point)

and personally, I don't find it amusing at all, try being that 29 mage getting ganked 24/7 in hillsbrad and having to level without the zone at all.. which makes its it a pain in the ass to get to where you can survive in Arathi.. because of them I had to grind out 3-4 levels in Ashenvale.. which three of them came out there and camped Splintertree about 3 hours at a time a few times a night..

Welcome to pvp, you sign up for it when you join those servers and walk into contested terriotory.

I'm on the Darkspear server, and even my main in tier 4 and 5 gets ganked by serveral horde pretty often when im farming, thats just how pvp servers are.

And as for buying gold, its w/e they can waste their real life money. Farming for a couple hours a day and i never have problems buying the best enchants and having plenty of elixers, flasks and food (granted i dont have an epic flyer).

And as for the hunter thing, most hunters are noobs that dont know how to play. If they played like this guy http://youtube.com/watch?v=lUNeMpUh_Cs then more hunters would be wanted in raids.

That is a short fight so yes, his mana isnt in that big of need, and yes i know he gets a buff at the end but so does the rest of the raid.

Ok im not trying to take anything away from howitzer but you give that gear to a hunter that knows what hes doing he'll do the same damage. its not like hes doing anything different than most of the good hunters out there. sad thing is that he'd do even more damage BM atm. All ppl see are the big pretty yellow 4.5k+ crits which are great but you get a bm in there with higher dps they'll end up higher on the damage meter. so until they fix mm, bm will be the raid spec of choice.

[Kuismar]

being a hunter myself i can see both sides. there are alot and i mean alot of hunters that are subpar on dps. they don't have the gear they don't know what a shot rotation is and they spec completely wrong for raids. being an ssc and tk guild at the moment and having most of our raid in T4+ i can tell you that a good hunter both MM and BM can do exceptional damage. myself MM and another hunter BM are usually top 7 on dmg through trash. now that is not a true rating when it comes to bosses we are still in the top 10 if not on occasions top 3. our BM hunter was actually #1 in dmg during a grull fight.

even with this data and the proven record we are usually over looked for mages and locks stating one hunter for MD is all that is needed. good thing one of the raid leaders is usually our hunter EO and he brings up to 4 of us to a raid if ranged dps is needed in substitution to CC. its just the way the game is and how blizzard has made it for years, hunters are overplayed and undertalented and it has gotten stuck in everyones heads. if they buff us to increase our overall dps so we can do 800-1000dps like some mages and locks can on burst dps then everyone will cry nerf when we can do the same in pvp.

[Pyrostemplar]

being a hunter myself i can see both sides. there are alot and i mean alot of hunters that are subpar on dps. they don't have the gear they don't know what a shot rotation is and they spec completely wrong for raids. being an ssc and tk guild at the moment and having most of our raid in T4+ i can tell you that a good hunter both MM and BM can do exceptional damage. myself MM and another hunter BM are usually top 7 on dmg through trash. now that is not a true rating when it comes to bosses we are still in the top 10 if not on occasions top 3. our BM hunter was actually #1 in dmg during a grull fight.

even with this data and the proven record we are usually over looked for mages and locks stating one hunter for MD is all that is needed. good thing one of the raid leaders is usually our hunter EO and he brings up to 4 of us to a raid if ranged dps is needed in substitution to CC. its just the way the game is and how blizzard has made it for years, hunters are overplayed and undertalented and it has gotten stuck in everyones heads. if they buff us to increase our overall dps so we can do 800-1000dps like some mages and locks can on burst dps then everyone will cry nerf when we can do the same in pvp.

Main problem with hunters is indeed reputation - besides the fact that you'll need to go through quite a few in order to find a decent one. They certainly don't seem to need buffs - actually, they might well need a slight damage nerf (while maybe some improvements in other aspects).
Remember they have good protection, the best aggro dump, good CC (personally I believe mage/lock/hunter CC is generally equivalent - mage being the most powerful regarding application but the most limited in terms of potential targets; locks a more varied CC, but not as powerful (although probably the best in terms of raiding); and hunters have the hardest to apply but the most flexible one). All in whole hunters have the best survivability, and should not be on pair - dmg wise - mages and locks, much less rogues. Opinions may differ, but Blizz seemed to make a sort of statement with that theory (for what it is worth).

But anyway, on the 25 man raids, I'd say 2 is the most "proper" hunter number, with 3 being the optional version. 1 is too low and 4 is overkill. Hunters are considered mainly a "solo" class - and indeed they truly shine in that regard, so I'd say it is fairly ok that they are slightly less numerous in raids than other classes, more group orientated (e.g. priests).

[starburst]

they suck, it's untrue what you say about their dps, if they do more dps its because everyone except them is in outland greens, and the hunter is in full T6
nihilum don't have one single hunter in all of their raids i watched- lol @ ~BM hunter for raids, the only time they will dominate the dmg meter is the first 15 secs of the fight when using bestial wrath then they will plumet.

[Pyrostemplar]

they suck, it's untrue what you say about their dps, if they do more dps its because everyone except them is in outland greens, and the hunter is in full T6
nihilum don't have one single hunter in all of their raids i watched- lol @ ~BM hunter for raids, the only time they will dominate the dmg meter is the first 15 secs of the fight when using bestial wrath then they will plumet.

Not quite - although I'm far from being an hunter dmg expert, most aggregate WWS reports from BT raiding put hunters in a good position in the dmg charts, sometimes topping them - and definitely above mages and SPs.