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  1. #41

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    I am a end game raider.

    In a nut shell, this is what frustrates raiders;

    We first killed Najentus, 10/29/07. We have killed him every week since (28 times). He has NEVER dropped Pearl Inlaid Boots for our guild.

    I would compare our guild's raid level to that of the top 10% of Arena teams in WoW. Every single one of those PvP'ers have their Vindicator boots, and probably had them within 3 weeks of S3 release.

    Another great example for us, T6 tokens. Every single week in BT we see 4-6 tokens for mage/druid/rogue. Meanwhile we see maybe 3 paladin/priest/warlock tokens every week.

    Again those PvP'ers maybe spent a month after S3 released to have Venegful Chest, meanwhile due to a for shit RNG and DKP, any given raider can spend 3+ months waiting to get T6 chest.

    There really are some simple solutions Blizzard could implement to "level the field".

    1. Eliminate the 3 token system on tier gear. Make it ONE token, usuable by any class. Then guilds like ours won't have 4+ pieces of T6 go to the DE Gods every single week.

    2. For 25 man raid content. Add a new badge to every instance end boss, for example "Illidan's Badge of Conquest". Have each end boss drop 2 of these badges. Stick a vendor in the instance, who will exchange the badge for any item that drops in that instance except legendaries.

    Those alone will help smooth out the RNG nature of raid bosses. 28 weeks and counting to see boots from Najentus is stupid. Having to DE 4+ pieces of T6 each week when other classes still need it, again is stupid.

    That is what created the term "welfare epics". It is also why its still tossed around today.

  2. #42

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    ^ is well said.

    My issue with "welfare epics" is that, once upon a time, epic meant EPIC. Seeing someone in IF in full t3 made you stop and inspect them, drooling over how awesome their gear was. It was a mark of skill and dedication to wear the purple. You could get blue gear that was nearly on par, but seeing someone in full Dreadnought was awe inspiring.

    Anymore, I go to do the BG daily and have rogues in full epics Garrote me then Blind me. Yeah... Purples are no longer a symbol of skill, but they DO make bad players feel good. Should only people who are able to raid 6 nights a week for 5 hours each get good gear? Of course not. Should their dedication and time commitment be rewarded? Sure. People who aren't able or willing to do that shouldn't get shafted, but acting like they DESERVE gear is just ridiculous.

  3. #43

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    also about raiders / pvpers

    i have quiet a few chars some only for pvp some for only pve.

    if your a raider you normally spend tons of g on pots , flasks, repairs , enchants, gems

    if your a pvp you only repair and thats it (apart from gemming and enchanting your gear at the beginning)

    what i meen is in pve your gear is constantly changing so you have to regem /enchant it.

    also your normally raiding from like 7 pm -12 pm so thats takes alot of time + if you have a job you will normally do that for the rest of the day, aswell as farming to cover the costs.

    where as a pvp can just log on for set day and do a few hours of pvp and get tehre points / rating and maybe farm once a week for a hour on primals or something to cover the weeks cost.


  4. #44

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by gallamann
    I am a end game raider.

    In a nut shell, this is what frustrates raiders;

    We first killed Najentus, 10/29/07. We have killed him every week since (28 times). He has NEVER dropped Pearl Inlaid Boots for our guild.

    I would compare our guild's raid level to that of the top 10% of Arena teams in WoW. Every single one of those PvP'ers have their Vindicator boots, and probably had them within 3 weeks of S3 release.

    Another great example for us, T6 tokens. Every single week in BT we see 4-6 tokens for mage/druid/rogue. Meanwhile we see maybe 3 paladin/priest/warlock tokens every week.

    Again those PvP'ers maybe spent a month after S3 released to have Venegful Chest, meanwhile due to a for shit RNG and DKP, any given raider can spend 3+ months waiting to get T6 chest.

    There really are some simple solutions Blizzard could implement to "level the field".

    1. Eliminate the 3 token system on tier gear. Make it ONE token, usuable by any class. Then guilds like ours won't have 4+ pieces of T6 go to the DE Gods every single week.

    2. For 25 man raid content. Add a new badge to every instance end boss, for example "Illidan's Badge of Conquest". Have each end boss drop 2 of these badges. Stick a vendor in the instance, who will exchange the badge for any item that drops in that instance except legendaries.

    Those alone will help smooth out the RNG nature of raid bosses. 28 weeks and counting to see boots from Najentus is stupid. Having to DE 4+ pieces of T6 each week when other classes still need it, again is stupid.

    That is what created the term "welfare epics". It is also why its still tossed around today.

    I dislike raiding for the content I just want the gear to fuel my Ego

    I belive your a scrub raider too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish8586
    I tihnk wehn naruto uses teh spirit bomb on vegeta den he will b defeated and tehn he can fite teh homonclus taht ed made cuz he cant cuz its his mawm!!! ^______________________^

  5. #45

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    alot of raiding now if just for the gear.... tbh if you have cleared the same instance every week for months and months its getting so damn boring.

    SW is nice and the fights are pritty unique but hyjal and bt are just a ball ache.

    this is why i spend most of my time on my alt just pvping cus atleast its fun and it kinda changes.

    once you make a alt with its own guild with all 5 tabs filled with pots / flask / herbs etc, got enough 70's got tons of glod, theres nothing more to do.

  6. #46

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    But its no excuse for saying Epics under your difficulty threshold are welfare.


    They are welfare to you.. maybe not others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish8586
    I tihnk wehn naruto uses teh spirit bomb on vegeta den he will b defeated and tehn he can fite teh homonclus taht ed made cuz he cant cuz its his mawm!!! ^______________________^

  7. #47

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    I raid weekly on my hunter in a guild that's just getting into hyjal/bt. I work for those epics. I payed attention, i had repairs, i used flasks, food, scrolls, pots, etc. And i've been raiding since june.

    Then on my priest i farmed out all the honor for vindicators and s1 by afk'ing under the bridge to DB while watching a movie. I got everything and even make fun of my welfare epics when i talk to guildies. This took 2 weeks.

    Now which sounds more challenging to get?

  8. #48

    Re: Define Welfare epics


    The only true welfare epics are honor/arena points based ones (except for rating requiring gear), as they do not require any kind of performance to get them. That doesn't mean you will get them necessarily fast though.

    Due to the easiness (or comparative easiness taking into account their quality) it is common to add the badge gear to the list (although technically badge gear requires players to down something).

    Rarely referred, crafted gear, particularly if BOE, or BOE world drops could also be added to the "welfare epics" list, as they require no particular performance.

  9. #49

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    This whole discussion is meh. You can get gear faster in PVE than you can in PVP. Pre TbC and post TbC it was just as easy and quick to get. I remeber getting 3 pieces of Bloodfang in one night (Chest, Shoulder, Bracers). This discussion is all relative. The only problem with the system is people who afk in BG's or use bots while not online in PVP. Thefact of the matter is that it takes alot of time and effort to be fully geared in PVP gear. The average PVP'er gets one item per month from arena (Average person does not get over 300-350 per week). That means it will take the average gamer 4 months to get the most current season of arena gear (less the shoulders). No raider is taking that long to get 4 items. If they are they have the worst luck in the game. People in full S1 at this point still had to spend a lot of time farming honor. It takes nearly 200k honor to fully gear out in S1 gear. Most people dont get more than 2-3k a night pvp'ing. Thats 67 days to fully deck yourself in S1 with S3 boots, belt bracers. Do peopleget honor faster than this.. yes, do most.. no. You can get honor and AP at same time so you can mix and match gear, but in general the average player takes at lest 3 to 4 months to get decked out.

    The only welfare epics are for bot'ers and guilds who are clearing raids easily who bring alts and new comers to rake in easy clears and free loot. Both sides of the equation have their flaws and both sides can require a lot of work. Enough with the debate and play. The only pain I can see for PVE'ers which is going to be fixed in WOTLK is the PVP gear beats PVE in BG's and Arena. Thats the only grief I can see from PVE'ers. >

  10. #50

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by Final_Rest
    I raid weekly on my hunter in a guild that's just getting into hyjal/bt. I work for those epics. I payed attention, i had repairs, i used flasks, food, scrolls, pots, etc. And i've been raiding since june.

    Then on my priest i farmed out all the honor for vindicators and s1 by afk'ing under the bridge to DB while watching a movie. I got everything and even make fun of my welfare epics when i talk to guildies. This took 2 weeks.

    Now which sounds more challenging to get?
    The big difference here is your guild has complete control over your membership and your entrance into the raids. In the battleground we don't have a way to kick your useless ass out. In both cases other people earned your gear, you only chose to participate in what you had to. You are what creates "welfare epics".

  11. #51

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by lindmark
    Thefact of the matter is that it takes alot of time and effort to be fully geared in PVP gear. The average PVP'er gets one item per month from arena (Average person does not get over 300-350 per week). That means it will take the average gamer 4 months to get the most current season of arena gear (less the shoulders). No raider is taking that long to get 4 items.
    How long it takes for a new raider - that means an entry level guild - to get the top of the line PVE gear (T6)?
    Even if the guild performs wonderfully, doesn't disband and always progresses?

    Yes, you can get all those items in a single week if you get carried by a guild with it on farm. Likewise you can (or could) buy the 2000 P-Rating... But that doesn't reflect the average time, far from it.

    Fact is that for each person fully decked in T6 there must be 100 in S3... or so it seems to me :P

  12. #52

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrostemplar
    How long it takes for a new raider - that means an entry level guild - to get the top of the line PVE gear (T6)?
    Even if the guild performs wonderfully, doesn't disband and always progresses?

    Yes, you can get all those items in a single week if you get carried by a guild with it on farm. Likewise you can (or could) buy the 2000 P-Rating... But that doesn't reflect the average time, far from it.

    Fact is that for each person fully decked in T6 there must be 100 in S3... or so it seems to me :P
    OK so go PVP? Who gives a shit. If PVE'ers got 100 epic drops per boss I wouldn't give a shit and wouldn't call you guys welfare epics, no I would play my PVP and get the gear that I can get and go on with my life. You people that PVE and whine about it need your asses kicked. If it's so easy, then get your asses and go PVP a few hours a night, see how long it really takes to get these "welfare epics".

    And to you idiots that say it takes no skill? Ok it doesn't if you want to take forever to get every peice of gear. If you have no skill then you loose almost all your matches and you have to play hours on end to get anywhere. You actually think following a script to kill a raid boss takes anymore skill than PVP? Sure you actually have to succeed to get anything, but the fact of the matter is anyone can do it if they wanted to waste the time doing it.

    Personally I like PVP better because I can log in play, and if I need to go away because someone came over or I need to run to get something to eat etc, I don't have 24 other people bitchin that they have to wait on me or because I have to afk, or feel obligated to be around for x raid times. I can make my own schedule.

    Anyway this argument has been and will always be stupid. Cry some more raiders, don't like it join the pvpers. Dont' like that then stfu and pretend it don't exist, we aren't comming into your raid and killing you.

  13. #53

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    There is 0 satisfaction from gettin ur gear from pvp, pve is about teamwork and kill that boss after 50 wipe n runs.
    The gear u get from it is the reward for the time u invest.
    all u do is queue and lose the bg/arena and get ur gear in the end.

    Give 2k rateing for ALL pvp gear, then i'l show respect for a player in wellfare....

    Pre-bc u needed to farm loads of 5 mans to get some reasonable gear for 40 mans.
    This took loads of time and dedication, pvp doesnt, TBC has it allot less since u can practicly gear ur 70 alt in like a few days and go Endgame.

    The whole casual/Welfare epic system just blows. And yes, i have a life.....
    Paying $15 a month doesn't give you the right to win, it gives you the right to compete, the rest is up to you.

  14. #54
    Mechagnome Darkjounin's Avatar
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    Re: Define Welfare epics

    You've been talking a lot about epics now...

    "What about the Honored with 5 factions" thing, you get ATLEAST honored with 3 of them just levling to 70. Do some quests and you have the same setbonus as every good PvPer! (Or well Honor grinder....)

    That's what I call free sets! Wellfare - Farewell?
    Hoiy kille ignata skee!

  15. #55

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by danoontje
    Thats where ppl go wrong in WOW, you DONT have to spend ALOT of time to be able to raid. Its THE MOST common misconception roaming around on the forums. If you find yourself a guild that is 2 steps behind the content TOP you dont have to put so much time into it. On ourt server we have 1 guild that raids MAX 2 raids a week for progress, they raid from 19:30 to 23:00 server time. thats like 9 hours a week in total. They run kara/za on the other day's but just by the ppl who are online and no one is forced to do more then those 2 raids. They are now 3 bosses down in Hyjal. And this is what blizz is trying to create with the badge gear. Ppl who spend like 10 hours a week MAX ingame are still able to do end game becuase the badges fill up the spots of gear that they would lack normally because of lack of raid time and thus drops.
    Sounds like my guild, we got our 4th boss in Hyjal down last night. Full clears TK and SSC, only one boss so far in BT, but expect more to fall soon. We only raid 8 hours a week tops.

  16. #56

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by Turismon
    You actually think following a script to kill a raid boss takes anymore skill than PVP? Sure you actually have to succeed to get anything, but the fact of the matter is anyone can do it if they wanted to waste the time doing it.
    No, not everyone can do PvE bosses. Most people that do PvE suck. Along those same lines, not everyone can do PvP. Most people that PvP suck. Thus, most people that play WoW suck.

    The difference is that PvP players get free shit for losing 10 games a week and PvE players get a big repair bill for losing. PvP players get free shit for hitting the spacebar once every few minutes and PvE players get yelled at and kicked out of the raid for doing the same thing. That is why in general PvP = welfare epics and PvE = real epics. Of course there are some very good PvP players. These players use items that have rating requirements on them and are thus real epics because they require winning to achieve.

    Now someone is gonna say "But players can be carried to high ratings." Yes, they can. Just like players can be carried in PvE raids. The items these people get from being carried are still real epics. However, the carried player is now a welfare player wearing real epics. See the difference?

  17. #57

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by ohlins
    There is 0 satisfaction from gettin ur gear from pvp, pve is about teamwork and kill that boss after 50 wipe n runs.
    The gear u get from it is the reward for the time u invest.
    all u do is queue and lose the bg/arena and get ur gear in the end.

    Give 2k rateing for ALL pvp gear, then i'l show respect for a player in wellfare....

    Pre-bc u needed to farm loads of 5 mans to get some reasonable gear for 40 mans.
    This took loads of time and dedication, pvp doesnt, TBC has it allot less since u can practicly gear ur 70 alt in like a few days and go Endgame.

    The whole casual/Welfare epic system just blows. And yes, i have a life.....
    Yeah and so do I, and I got plenty of gear to show for it. PVP yes, but I like to PVP, i PVE on rare occasion but I refuse to spend hours on end in the same place doing the same thing over and over again with no change in scripted events. No one is stopping your from doing it, no PVP person is killing you on your raid attempts.

    Respect? I could give a 2 shits what respect you give me, fucking I raid in wow cool guy.... lol. And I should give you respect for wasting all that time dying to learn something scripted and stare at the screen like a zombie for 5+ hours a night farming the same thing over and over again? LOL, some of you people have serious issues to care what others thing of what you do in a game makes you cool or not.....

    Valdarian, you make a good point. I don't have a problem with it all that much, maybe they should deduct points from deaths or something, i wouldn't have a problem with making the people that suck not get great gear to a point, but thats why the new rating system is in place to kinda make that work. But you got to have some way to progress in this game. Should you get S2 for honor? Maybe not, but if so maybe they should just make the 10 man zones 5 man, and 25man 10 man as PVE progresses to make up for it. Either way, I think they will get it right eventually, honestly, all raid gear should be token or mark based, that way nothing goes to waste and you get to pick your gear for the zone. Random stuff has always been stupid in my eyes, since MMO's have come out.

  18. #58

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Simple.

    Welfare Epics:
    Another excuse for imbeciles to get irrate over something that really means very little.

  19. #59

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    I would not be playing wow unless I thought I could hold my own in pvp without having to invest a lot of time getting geared.

    I am not interested in raiding, just pvp. Welfare epics are made to keep me paying the bill. I would actually define a welfare epic as any epic weapon that I will ever purchase.

    I think the issue is that pvp epics are not just pvp epics -- they do well (or very well? idk - i don't raid) in raids also. There is probably a small amount of wowers that think because they spent time raiding they should have an advantage in pvp but I doubt that is the case for many wowers. Most raiders raid and most pvpers pvp. All I want as a pvper is an even playing field -- only for pvp though.

  20. #60

    Re: Define Welfare epics

    Quote Originally Posted by KetMalice
    Sokar! Dude that is so true. I remember when I finished my lightforge set. When I finally got all blues I was stoked. I finally got full T2 and that was a amazing day.
    I there with you. When I finally got a group to kill Postmaster Boss in Live Strat to get my Magister's boots was a great day. Then progressing through MC, BWL, AQ, and Naxx. Then I get to BC and before I'm 61 I have already replaced my chest piece.

    Even getting set pieces now is easier. Alot of people playing today never expirienced three straight weeks of Rag dropping cenarion. Or never having Barron drop his half of thunderfury. Now a token drops and 3 different classes can use it. Or if no one needs it anymore people can trade them in for off spec items. Hell I can farm kara and get pvp gear now.

    All blizzard has done is taken what would have been considered a great blue and changed the color of the text.

    Is it really Epic if everyone, regardless of skill, has the ability to obtain it?

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