Vengeance nerf?

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Neither of the two classes I play as back and forth mains are throughput based, but I don't have a hard time seeing why classes like Rogue, which is based off of absolute purity of damage output, or other classes in general which have no options other than DPS wouldn't be higher, and that seems t o be what Blizzard is going for according to GC.

You may only have the option to deal damage as a Rogue, but I'd daresay that between Cloak of Shadows and Evasion you're keeping up with the defensiveness of the bubble, and your higher dodge rating is easily enough a match for our plate armor.

You say purity of DPS is all you bring, other than Stealth, CC, Consistent Stuns, Heal Reductions, Interrupts, The ability to leave combat, Slows, Blind, etc. Sorry, Rogues bring waaaay more than just damage, they also bring at least one trick for every single situation in the game, that's what the class is designed for.

So let's look at a Ret Paladin, he brings the same damage (Ideally), Similarly limited CC, Less controlled/Frequent but more potent stuns, the ability to Heal (we'll call this even with Heal Reduction, even though you can do that while still cranking damage and we really can't), we have no interrupts, combat breakers, kind of a slow, nothing like Blind, and nowhere near the option to switch tactics to suit a situation. Instead of reactive actions to weaken a target, we bring buffs that must be setup ahead of time, and a few situational group-utility tools, at the end of the day, it seems like we bring the same amount of crap to the table, but we can only do it one tree, you get to do it in all three, which means your offensive versatility is thrice what ours is, while we get defensive versatility instead.

Same amount of talent points spent on damage SHOULD = Same amount of damage. Dont pretend you dont bring utility when every class has so many varied options that can't be called anything BUT utility.

[Belisarius]

Being a Beta tester myself I can say with almost absolute certainty that the Retribution damage output will be tuned, or as some would say "nerfed". As it stands the Retribution Paladin would not be competing with the other classes for top DPS simply because we would out damage them by a mile.

I'm a longtime Retribution Paladin myself and I've been DPS'ing since Molten Core so I want the changes as desperatly as any of you, but at the moment the Retribution damage output in the Beta is too insane and should be tuned.

Mate I've asked this question to a few playing pallies in Beta (on youtube etc), yet noone is seemingly running Recount etc or taking a hell of a lot of notice on how much damage we are actually doing compared to other classes, and I have no goddamn idea why they aren't, I know I would be regardless of polish or not, I'd be taking tabs on how each patch changes our dps. Have you run recount in beta mate, or anything similar? And can you give evidence of how much dps we are churning out, and in comparison to other classes?

I myself will agree we should not be outdpsing "Pure dps" classes such as the rogue/mage/warlock/hunter. But on the same hand, I can't see why we shouldn't be equalling their dps, or a tad lower, i'm talkin no less than 5%, we forsake everything else to do this basically, we cannot tank or heal effectively. The argument that we are a "hybrid" has no validity. The argument of "utility" has no validity. At the moment Retribution Paladins simply do not bring anything to the table really that justifies them a spot in a raid, Holy Paladins have gone from the best healers in the game to a mere shadow of their former selves due to changes to other healing classes, and Prot paladins although greatly improved still fall short in terms of total health pool and other interupt problems on some encounters to name a few issues. It seems Blizzard is trying though to eliminate this problem with the notes I have read from Beta, which is positive news.
Getting back to Ret though, we simply cannot heal and dps at the same time. Granted in WotLK, DS does this on a small scale, but that is only one ability. (We could spec into Holy a little bit with the 70% chance to not be interrupted, but with the amount of CC these days from all classes, it is basically useless in PvP, better off going down the prot tree for a tad more survivability and go all out as much dps talents as possible.) {edit} Thing is the more I look at the WotLK Ret tree, basically I have to spend a great deal of my talent points in that tree to dps, there ain't much left over to spend in the other trees to OP this class, and that's how it should be imao. Just so long as we do our primary role well, if not as good as a "pure" class in that selected option.
You take into account what a rogue can do, they can totally shut out numerous opponents if played well, so can a mage - massive CC and massive dps, a pally atm - poultry heals, gear limited, reasonable burst damage occasionally a lottery really still, 66% dps potential of a "pure dps" class, reasonable buffs, theyre a nothing hybrid class. Look at druids, I mean there is no reason a Ret pally should be denied at such a level, Blizzard hasn't done it intentionally, I think they really have been confused about how to fix it up all these years and the direction of the class. There is no reason why, someone shouldn't be able to spec into a tree, and do the intended job well, that imao is a hybrid class, it gives flexibility to a guild and the game, and noone has the right to deny a class of this. Some of the ignorant statements over the years of people saying that we can buff well, so we shouldn't be allowed to dps or tank, Or we have trees that can allow us to tank, heal or dps, geezuz, talk about lame comments. Thing is we haven't been allowed to do those things.
WotLK is looking better, and about time too.

[Belisarius]

You may only have the option to deal damage as a Rogue, but I'd daresay that between Cloak of Shadows and Evasion you're keeping up with the defensiveness of the bubble, and your higher dodge rating is easily enough a match for our plate armor.

You say purity of DPS is all you bring, other than Stealth, CC, Consistent Stuns, Heal Reductions, Interrupts, The ability to leave combat, Slows, Blind, etc. Sorry, Rogues bring waaaay more than just damage, they also bring at least one trick for every single situation in the game, that's what the class is designed for.

So let's look at a Ret Paladin, he brings the same damage (Ideally), Similarly limited CC, Less controlled/Frequent but more potent stuns, the ability to Heal (we'll call this even with Heal Reduction, even though you can do that while still cranking damage and we really can't), we have no interrupts, combat breakers, kind of a slow, nothing like Blind, and nowhere near the option to switch tactics to suit a situation. Instead of reactive actions to weaken a target, we bring buffs that must be setup ahead of time, and a few situational group-utility tools, at the end of the day, it seems like we bring the same amount of crap to the table, but we can only do it one tree, you get to do it in all three, which means your offensive versatility is thrice what ours is, while we get defensive versatility instead.

Same amount of talent points spent on damage SHOULD = Same amount of damage. Dont pretend you dont bring utility when every class has so many varied options that can't be called anything BUT utility.

Totally agree with these comments mate, well put, and what i've said for years to dps classes that whinge. And particularly with rogues, they seriously have more survivability than a pally these days and we are still 66% dps potential of them. Blizzard is really just rightfully putting paladins where they should be after all this time.
At the end of the day, these people dont want to be competing for spots in raids, which now they must do, because there is another viable melee dps, two including DK's. Before it was just pidgeon holed holy pallies buffing and FoL spamming. This is how it should have been from the word go with this game.

[Belisarius]

The hybrid-vs-pure class is not about e-peen. It might be for short-sighted people, buts its really not about that.
Its about balance.

Most people do not understand the the game isn't resumed to 3 roles (dps, healer, tank). Its MUCH more diverse than that!

You have melee dps, ranged dps, caster dps, melee aoe dps, caster aoe dps, ranged aoe dps.
As a tank you also have mitigation tank, avoidance tank and some other shit, I'm not too hot at tanks.
Healers can also be divided into single target healer, aoe healer, HoT healer and probably other stuff too, I never played a healer much.

And it doesn't stop there!
There's dps styles that are more appropriate for PvP (instants casts/burst damage) and dps styles that are more appropriate for PvE (sustained damage, class synergy debuffs).

The point is, that talent trees turn classes into specific roles in the game, and a 'pure' class has 3 specs to fulfill different roles: hunter example:
Bm - raid dps
MM - pvp/2nd tier raid dps(at least without godly gear)
SV - melee class synergy+2nd tier raid dps

If hybrids got to do everything in one single dps spec that other 'pure' classes needed different specs to do, why the fuck would anyone play pure classes? Just fucking roll a paladin/shaman/druid and you can do whatever the fuck you want in the game, better or equally as good as the other 'pure' classes.

Seriously, each hybrid that whines that they cannot be as good as a rogue/mage should really think about what their role truly is, because I can tell you right now that your role isn't to be good at everything.

For a start MM as a PvP spec? geezuz ookkkaaayyy.
Secondly your the typical type that fires me up with your ignorance. Have you ever played a Paladin or Shaman? I doubt it, if ya did it was shortlived.
A Paladin in it's current state has three trees ok, we cannot spec into any one of those 3 trees in totality and be anywhere near a pure spec for dps, tanking or healing, nowhere near.
Before TBC basically we were OP healers, we could not tank and we could not dps, basically it was a cookie cutter holy/prot build for buffing and healing, Ret was just dreadful regardless of any amount of gearing basically. Come TBC the Prot and Ret trees have been buffed a little and we can if lucky get into raids, albeit we still cannot match a pure spec at all, nor can we do any other of the two trees if we spec into one tree. See where I'm coming from now? If we go full Ret, we have like 11 points to distribute elsewhere, which makes diddly squat difference to healing or tanking ability, we have none of that, and yet we are still only 66% potential of a pure dps spec, our buffs are reasonable, our mana/health regen to a raid is nice, but does that make up for 900-1000 dps less damage dealt? It doesn't. And your argument is poor i'm afraid. This has hopefully been fixed by Blizzard, because the people playing Paladins day in day out are the ones that know what is wrong with the class, not some rogue or mage walkin around wtfpwning everything cause of their godlike given abilities. Mages and Rogues have more survivability and more CC/interrupt abilities that make paladin healing abilities a non issue, you know it, and everyone knows it, if ya don't your dumb and ignorant. anyone can shut down a pally.

[Liistrad]

For a start MM as a PvP spec? geezuz ookkkaaayyy.
Secondly your the typical type that fires me up with your ignorance. Have you ever played a Paladin or Shaman? I doubt it, if ya did it was shortlived.
A Paladin in it's current state has three trees ok, we cannot spec into any one of those 3 trees in totality and be anywhere near a pure spec for dps, tanking or healing, nowhere near.
Before TBC basically we were OP healers, we could not tank and we could not dps, basically it was a cookie cutter holy/prot build for buffing and healing, Ret was just dreadful regardless of any amount of gearing basically. Come TBC the Prot and Ret trees have been buffed a little and we can if lucky get into raids, albeit we still cannot match a pure spec at all, nor can we do any other of the two trees if we spec into one tree. See where I'm coming from now? If we go full Ret, we have like 11 points to distribute elsewhere, which makes diddly squat difference to healing or tanking ability, we have none of that, and yet we are still only 66% potential of a pure dps spec, our buffs are reasonable, our mana/health regen to a raid is nice, but does that make up for 900-1000 dps less damage dealt? It doesn't. And your argument is poor i'm afraid. This has hopefully been fixed by Blizzard, because the people playing Paladins day in day out are the ones that know what is wrong with the class, not some rogue or mage walkin around wtfpwning everything cause of their godlike given abilities. Mages and Rogues have more survivability and more CC/interrupt abilities that make paladin healing abilities a non issue, you know it, and everyone knows it, if ya don't your dumb and ignorant. anyone can shut down a pally.

Yes Marksman is the PvP spec. If you believe BM or Surv to be the PvP spec, you have not seen real pvp with a hunter.

My argument is simple: you cannot expect to have more choices, and still perform as good as a class with less choices than you.
Or in a more specific case, you cannot expect to have one talent tree that performs as well as more than one talent trees in another class. Your dps tree could perform as well as a PVE talent tree of another class, but then it wouldn't be as good as that class's PVP talent tree.

Its simple, you can't have everything!

[Belisarius]

Yes Marksman is the PvP spec. If you believe BM or Surv to be the PvP spec, you have not seen real pvp with a hunter.

My argument is simple: you cannot expect to have more choices, and still perform as good as a class with less choices than you.
Or in a more specific case, you cannot expect to have one talent tree that performs as well as more than one talent trees in another class. Your dps tree could perform as well as a PVE talent tree of another class, but then it wouldn't be as good as that class's PVP talent tree.

Its simple, you can't have everything!

1. As MM in PvP you will get your a**e handed to you on a platter, GL with that one.

2. Your argument isn't simple, it's totally flawed, that's what it is.

3. I'll give you a link to the talents of a Ret pally as an example to fill you in on a few things. We cannot be a PvP specced Ret pally and do decent PvE/PvP damage, did you know that Liistrad? Here is an example of a current PvP build for you, take note:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...30033005331001

As you can see, If we chop and change PvP talents such as Eye for an eye, Vindication, Divine purpose, Pursuit of Justice and Deflection, and spent 20 vital points in prot for a tad more survivability to avoid CC somewhat, we miss out on PvE dps items such as Imp. Sanc Aura and Fanaticism, and also the Str bonus in the Holy tree which is a massive dps increase if people stack Str like they should. AP is the key to a paladin as is to an arms warrior. You would seriously laugh at this paladin hitting you, regardless of gear.

PvE build: (cookie cutter Ret Pve Dps, and the build I personally PvP with, cause im leet and eat MM hunters for breakfast)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/...00033125331051

See how we dont have any ability to heal, we have no PvP talents to spare, we cant tank, and our dps is subpar to dps classes, you call that fair? Rogues, frost mages have better longevity than a goddamn paladin. Have way more CC and can do way more dps. On top of this insult Liistrad atm, our gearing is completely and utterly pathetic (we still have spell damage coefficients on spells and no spell damage on gear?), we dont get given freebie Arena PvP 2H axes with awesome stats, and at a rating requirement so low any nub can get their hands on it. I think the proof Blizzard is actually rectifying our entire stat dependency is proof of the flaw, that not only I picked up in the first month I started playing paladins 2.5 years ago, but has been the case ever since, till now.

My argument Liistrad is this, any one of our trees, whether it be Holy (healing), prot (tanking), Ret (melee dps), should be able to perform as good in that one tree of choice in either PvE or PvP, (by it's very nature we will not be able to spec to do both) as any other class's similar tree.
So a Ret pally, should be comparable to a rogue, warrior, shaman in melee dps solo, it's only fair. Else why is there any point in bringing them. And that is the point, atm there is a fine line, far too fine, utility is weak tbh, certainly doesnt make up for a 1000dps at tier 6 level. Only people who are exceptional get to raid with that spec, very very few indeed, which says something in itself. How you can say what your saying is beyond me.
Hopefully you understand where I am coming from now. We cannot spec as you say we can do. Level a paladin to 70 and experience it yourself before commenting please.

[Liistrad]

To answer Blisarius:

Most 'pure' dps classes are also looked down upon for bringing a pvp spec to a raid, as its DPS is subpar to their PVE trees. And we also cannot heal or tank, and we never will, because none of our trees allows healing. 'Pure' dps classes also have to pick very very bad pve talents to allow for pvp survivability, that is nothing new to any class really.

That your dps is subpar to dps classes is fair in my opinion, since you have the option to fulfill roles other dps classes cannot. And unless you somehow lost your Holy Light skill, you can still heal, it may be a shitty, useless heal, but it is a heal.

The gear you have available... I won't discuss it, because that is something I do not know anything about.

You said this:
"My argument Liistrad is this, any one of our trees, whether it be Holy (healing), prot (tanking), Ret (melee dps), should be able to perform as good in that one tree of choice in either PvE or PvP, (by it's very nature we will not be able to spec to do both) as any other class's similar tree."

And this is simply not true by any account. Not all specs are viable for PvE and PvP, and that has been stated by blizzard many many times. Survival hunters will always die horribly in arena, while doing sub par dps and having mediocre, dispellable CC. Fury warriors will suffer from ridiculously awful mobility, and will see their talented abilities to DPS useless in a pvp enviroment (Rampage).

I simply do not understand why people expect hybrids to perform as well as specialist classes. You can perform various roles as a paladin, and a rogue can perform various roles also, but it just so happens that all the roles they perform are related to damage dealing while yours are not. It is very surreal to expect to dps on the same level as a rogue, while a rogue cannot heal or tank on the same level as you. Or buff for that matter, since paladins bring good buffs to a raid.

[b8279]

Lot of large post itt. My two cents is that a rogue will always do more damage than a hybrid, you can say this or that(seriously sap as a raid utility??) dodge vs plate or aggro dump(dps tool...), but in the end a rogue is the only pure dps class. The only dps class that brings no real buff/debuff(say hemo and ill go Ted Kaczynski). They do and they should do more damage than others, we do less damage than them but when you factor in our buffs/debuffs it tends to even out and often times in our favor(especially if you include non talent buffs/debuffs).Now you ask "than y r not teak al palaz11!1" because you only need one ret to get the raidwide buff,even more so in lieu of the changes to auras etc, just look at the changes to other hybrids (de)buffs.That is in my opinion one of the driving reasons behind that change, so that raids aren't stacked with 5 shammies,3 shadow priests and 1 ret paladin.
Your dps will scale, they won't make their Tbc beta mistake again. Like I said earlier this change could be good "if" warranted, as it will allow certain changes and prevent potentially more devastating nerfs down the road.
The sky aint falling for paladins or rogues.

[chitanblue]

hm.

[Admuntour]

I think the pure DPS classes vs the Hybrid argument should really stop once and for good cause its becoming quite old and quickly redundant.

Basically at level 70 if you are a "pure" DPS class you only get to DPS but you have 3 trees to get it done, some of course are going to be more prone to being good at PVP because of more defensive and survivability abilities and burst ones, while some talents will be more PVE orientated.
A hybrid however at level 70 once he has chosen in what to invest his talents stops becoming a hybrid to a certain extent and becomes a specialized in whatever tree is picked.
For druids, they can become great tanks or DPS if specced into feral but they don't get any additional specialization in Balance or Resto and so they just stop becoming viable Caster DPS or Healers.
Same for Resto if a druid specs into resto he can't tank a raid boss or even a heroic boss unless he overgears by a lot, and its not only about survivability its about threat generation.

So really Retribution Paladins, Elemental/Enhancement Shamans, Feral/Balance Druids and so on, should be almost on equal footing to their so called pure DPS classes.
The only thing I'd balance things around would be utility, if a certain class/spec has a lot of utility he should have lower DPS (not by much), and vice versa.
Heck even mages bring utility now with the changes to scorch, winder's chill and water element and they are supposed to be pure DPS classes, or hunters with hunting party and expose weakness.

And rogues shouldn't wine cause of course they bring the least utility thus they will still have the highest DPS.

[Sidders]

Am sorry but I dont agree with you at all there.

Having the ability to respec into a different role entirely is a HUGE thing for hybrids, thus their extreme usefulness and flexibility.

In no way should they be equal to the pure dps classes.

A rogue, mage, warlock or hunter cant just go pay money to respec and poof they are a pure healing class. Druids and Paladins (and even shamans, but they need love lol) can. Granted it gets pricy if you do this often enough but come on.. with dailies and the amount of money that can be made in this game, its practically not an issue.

Whats getting *old* is this whole lot of hybrids crying about wanting to be pure dps when they should have rolled a pure dps class in the first place.

Yes, I believe druids should have formidable dps. NO I don't believe they should be on par with rogues or mages or warlocks or hunters. That is just absurd.

[Admuntour]

Remember that you need gear to be able to fulfill those roles its not only about paying gold and respecing, I could make the most awesome paladin tank build I can but if I don't have the gear for it then it won't be much good, cost will become irrelevant if Blizz pushes forth the idea of having 2 specs that you can swap betwen.
Its two sides of the coin.
Still at least caster hybrids like Shamans, Druids and Priest will be able to swap a bit easier now with the universal spellpower.

Your point is valid but I still wouldn't want to see huge gaps between pure DPS classes and hybrids, after all when all is said and done and pure DPS classes also are getting utility then the gap can't really be that big, it shouldn't be huge like it is for some classes today but it shouldn't very small either.

[kuro]

While a convenient argument, the whole "hybrids can spec to heal/tank" argument simply doesn't fly anymore. Pure DPS classes, like hybrids, have 3 talent trees, and 3 ways to play the game. A frost mage is played different than a fire mage than an arcane mage. You are going to tell me that a Destro Lock and an Affliction lock are "bascially the same?" It's simply not true. Healing and tanking is not a privilege, it's a price paid for DPS versatility.

Look at Priests. If you were a new player looking to start up this game, and you specifically wanted to make a healer, you would most probably assume they are the class most focused on healing. Yet, their shadow tree is PVP and PVE viable, to the point that I don't think anyone could imagine raiding without shadow priests. Why is this supposed pure class also the best DPS/utility class, while the people who rolled a class hoping to be DPS/utility are relgated to strictly healers?

Tanking is not something many people enjoy to do. It is usually thankless and vastly underappreciated. Blizzard realizes this, and if you've been followign the LK blue posts, you can see they are making tanking both more accessible to all tank classes, and less of a bore. Why? No one wants to tank. You can't call it a privilege, when the numbers, and the developers realize that no one with that ability views it as such. If a class can tank, and someone playing that class wants to tank, be thankful, because you aren't going anywhere without them.

The difference between a destro lock's gear and a affliction lock's gear is akin to the difference between a enhancement shaman and a resto shaman, but the resto shaman has a much more extreme price. Whereas the lock can get by using some of the same gear, the resto shaman has to get entirely new gear, and an entirely new role he needs to learn, and succeed at. The argument that it's a privilege that the hybrid needs 2 or 3 sets of gear, a respec, and a rehtinking of how to play has been proven absurd, and agreed to by Blizzard.

Should an enhancement shaman be as much DPS as a combat rogue? No. Should you notice when you bring an enhancement shaman isntead of a rogue to a 10 man? No, you shouldn't. Should a hybrid player in DPS spec who plays his hybird-dps 10% better than the combat rogue -- who believes the raid slot is his by right to be taken -- get said raid spot over him? You bet. His ability to play his class at a better clip than the combat rogue should be the deciding factor, not "sorry, he's combat, we're taking his scrubbiness over your hybrid skill."

Right now, in LK beta, Blizzard blues have been stating that there is going to be roles for hybird DPS in all raids. Get used to it. Every class has three ways of playing their class. Even the DPS classes have three different ways. Being relegated to one role only simply doesn't make sense anymore.

Right now, I'd say Ret Paladins and Moonkins are the two most "left out" specs in a raid. From the looks of it, that's going to change, and you'd probably best get used to it, because Blizzard agrees that the days of hybrid == healer are over.

[Sidders]

Admuntour, This is true.. there are gear limitations to each spec.

However, gear is not that hard to obtain.. even for the casual player.. and they seem to be making it easier every time I turn around :P (and I am in between what you would call casual / hardcore)

And no I wouldnt want the gap to be huge either. I play many classes.. my latest being my feral druid. She has 2 sets of gear, one for tanking and one for my kiki dps.
I love to dps.. and when am grouped with rogues.. they blow me out of the water. (same for mages and warlocks)

I do wish I could do more, though I know my gear is dependent on that.. however, I know they are pure dps classes and there fore expect them to be a bit higher on the parse then me.

Utility.. yes I think this is where the huge factors are going to have to be if the gap of dps is going to tighten in the expac.

[Liistrad]

Kuro, I'm pretty sure when I say that shadow priest/enh shamans/feral druids are all very valuable to a well constructed raid party.

And I do agree with you when you say that if a hybrid is better than a pure class, they should take that raid spot.

I do not agree that healing/tanking is a 'price to pay' - paladins can heal, tank and dps, and while in the current incarnation of the game they may not do all 3 in both pvp and pve, when you chose the class you probably knew what it could do, and if the only reason you chose it was to dps, it would have probably been much easier to do that with another class. Its not like anyone made you choose that class.

I, for one, enjoy having hybrids in my raid, as a hunter I deeply appreciate Blessing of Wisdom, Judgement of Wisdom, Agi totems, Spriest mana regen and crit/heal from feral druids. As a warrior, I loved having windfury, 10% ap boost and Blessing of Might.

And I'm pretty sure a lot of raiders love the hybrids buffs, but lets face it: nobody makes you play that class, if you rather fulfill a pure hardcore dps role, you are free to reroll into one, and maybe even surpass the players that made you feel bad about your class. Hybrids are for people that like to have options, and if you rather not have the extra options, you can always reroll.

[mcstu]

And now their crown is being contested by a HYBRID, by someone who can "do it all"? They just can't handle that.

ofc there is no such thing as a hybrid. My ret can handle dps, he cant heal for shit. He cant tank for shit. he can only do one, not multiple..therefore is no hybrid. A hybrid is a class that can do more than one job effectively at the same time. If i could dps as good as a rogue and heal as good as a preist at exact same time, i can see the OP ness but I cant , i heal as a ret enuf to keep someone alive that is 5 levels lower than me

[Karpalo]

By hybrid you could also reffer to the fact that paladin and shaman dps is mix of melee and spell dmg. Thats one way you can split them from the "pure" dps classes. Also you do have heals even you are not healer you still got em.

[mcstu]

. Also you do have heals even you are not healer you still got em.

try healing as a ret, even with beta spell power.> you cant come close to keeping anything alive for any time at all. As far as the type of dps is concerned ... what matter does it make if it comes from physical or magic? dps is dps

[mcstu]

try healing as a ret, even with beta spell power.> you cant come close to keeping anything alive for any time at all you will always be better continuing dps. As far as the type of dps is concerned ... what matter does it make if it comes from physical or magic? dps is dps

[Belisarius]

To answer Blisarius:

Most 'pure' dps classes are also looked down upon for bringing a pvp spec to a raid, as its DPS is subpar to their PVE trees. And we also cannot heal or tank, and we never will, because none of our trees allows healing. 'Pure' dps classes also have to pick very very bad pve talents to allow for pvp survivability, that is nothing new to any class really.

That your dps is subpar to dps classes is fair in my opinion, since you have the option to fulfill roles other dps classes cannot. And unless you somehow lost your Holy Light skill, you can still heal, it may be a shitty, useless heal, but it is a heal.

The gear you have available... I won't discuss it, because that is something I do not know anything about.

You said this:
"My argument Liistrad is this, any one of our trees, whether it be Holy (healing), prot (tanking), Ret (melee dps), should be able to perform as good in that one tree of choice in either PvE or PvP, (by it's very nature we will not be able to spec to do both) as any other class's similar tree."

And this is simply not true by any account. Not all specs are viable for PvE and PvP, and that has been stated by blizzard many many times. Survival hunters will always die horribly in arena, while doing sub par dps and having mediocre, dispellable CC. Fury warriors will suffer from ridiculously awful mobility, and will see their talented abilities to DPS useless in a pvp enviroment (Rampage).

I simply do not understand why people expect hybrids to perform as well as specialist classes. You can perform various roles as a paladin, and a rogue can perform various roles also, but it just so happens that all the roles they perform are related to damage dealing while yours are not. It is very surreal to expect to dps on the same level as a rogue, while a rogue cannot heal or tank on the same level as you. Or buff for that matter, since paladins bring good buffs to a raid.

Liistrad I'll repeat, we cannot perform more than one role at a time, that means we can spec into one of three trees to help out in a certain situation as required, you should be rejoicing at that, it means more tanks could be around, or more healers, or more melee dps if the other classes arent, your logic and mindset I casnnot understand frtom any stretch of the imagination, your just being totally ignorant and hating on pallies. Is your name Kalgan by any chance?
Even though we spec into that tree, we cannot perform even at 65% of a pure class basically, that is lame, we might as well throw the class away (forget WoW because the lore is totally centred around paladins, I can see it now "And the mighty Liistrad said let there be no more pallies in WoW, they should be nubs who can't do anything, and be wtfpwnd by any class of choosing, and laughed and scorned").
Thats what your in effect saying, a Paladin should stay lame no matter what because they get three different trees to spec into lol, and you ya poor little rogue/hunter lover, you get easy street dps and massive cc, GTFO of here. What a dumba**e viewpoint. If you expect me and other diehard hardcore paladin players to be lame for the rest of this game your wrong, to be honest and truthful, if these changes werent happening I will be definitely playing WAR, because they have it right. The warrior priest is exactly what I expected a Paladin to be. Front liner, dealing decent damage 80%+ and able to buff and heal allies at the same time as dealing that aforesaid damage.
Now even I in Wow do not want this, I just purely want each tree to be able to perform the role it's meant to in a fashion that is anywhere near a class that it is intended to emulate. We do not bring enough "utility", the big wank word in WoW, to make up for the lack of the primary role we should be doing.
If you can't understand that Liistrad then you have no right to be commenting in these forums, your a troll.