Patch 3.0.2 - On Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking

[Uuker]

[blizzquote="Zarhym;http://blue.mmo-champion.com/12/9336795321-302--on-debuffs-buffs-and-raid-stacking.html"]
Expose Weakness: Buffs only self.

Somebody please tell me why any group or a raid will need a Survival hunter after this?

Bye-bye SV hunter? As well as a shadow priest?

[Erlon]

I imagine they will attempt to balance dps so no one class far out-dpses another. Hybrid classes doing roughly similar dps (maybe differing on specific encounters or instances), and pure dps classes doing reasonable amount more.

I think these changes made hybrid classes more or less obsolete. You no longer need to stack up hybrid classes for support, so there is no reason to bring them along any more (except those you need to cover the buff/debuffs, which will be very few).
If they balance every class which is supposed to do damage (even the hybrid classes that dont fill a support role any longer) to make roughly the same dps this change would make more sense. Though the game would become even more dumb...

[mud_lime]

Somebody please tell me why any group or a raid will need a Survival hunter after this?

Bye-bye SV hunter? As well as a shadow priest?

Hunting Party?

[loder]

Please stop whining, nerds. You can still sit in front of the computer all day as you have done in the past. These changes simply allow us with real lives to raid - I like to enjoy content that I pay for too - even though I don't waste my whole life in WoW.

It's always the same crying game when Blizzard introduces some casual-friendly changes. The sea of whining when they removed attunements for BT/MH flooded the bitspace. Same thing with Arena items.

[plisska]

Hey guys, I think you've misunderstood something...

Blizzard doesn't want anymore of this :

- Hey is there still a place in the raid?
- No, we need a priest for the buffs/debuffs
- Aw, ok.

Blizzard doesn't want that anymore! They want flexibility, they make it. When you'll have the need of a debuff, you'll have the choice with 2 class minimum, so that's good, that's pretty good.

[Kenark]

I just read this thread on my way to work.

QQ MORE

really. on the past 6 pages virtually every class stated that it was dead because its place will be taken by class X (which did QQ too)
don't you get it?
if you haven't been a total ass to your guild (which I assume you must have, because you fear for your raid slot) they will take you anyways. you really think there'll suddenly fall 200 class Y players (whichever class you fear will make most dps) out of the clear blue sky and take all your precious raid slots and lovely epix?

if everything stated by this thread (not OP) would be true, in wotlk there will be no raiding at all because no class is gonna get taken to raids...besides MK... o.O

[Uuker]

Hunting Party?

hmm well yeah this is something useful ;P

Anyway I'm pretty sure that Blizz knows what are they doing and this will give us only benefits.

[gilfanon]

Can someone explain to me in a reasonable, rational, intelligent way, without resorting to ad hominem attacks, why
a) This is dumbing down the game?
b) This is appealing to casuals?

As far as I can see, stacking a raid with certain classes for certain buffs is not an indication of skill or hardcore status. Blizzard's stated aim for this change is to allow raids to take players with skill over players with a specific buff that is required for min/maxing. I have no issue with arguments over whether they have achieved that goal or not, but most of the comments here seem more along the lines of "OMG my particular class/spec is now dead, it's the end of the world" or "OMG Blizzard catering to the casual". Seems to me this change does the opposite- if you're a casual who sucks at their class you're not going to get carried into a raid any more because you bring the one buff the raid needs to beat a particular boss. Surely that's a good thing that acts in the favour of hardcore raid guilds?

Maybe I'm missing something, but if someone can enlighten me I'm prepared to change my mind...

[Yso]

Misery = 3% Hit, doesn't stack with Imp. Faire Fire (and boonkins are needed for the Earth & Moon Debuff)
Shadow Weaving = Self Buff only
VT = Nerfed. Equal to Ret Pallys and or Survival Hunters

So with less utility than a Ret Pally, Survival Hunter, or Boonkin then why bring a Shadow Priest?

Are Shadow Priests being nerfed out of the raid and sent back to PvP? Certainly seems that way...

Nope, Shadowpriest now do very good DPS in WotLK.

[zire]

iam reading this side a long time, but never wrote anything wasnt even registered yet. But this changes really make me angry. also i can undertsand the reasons behind this, its complety retareded. This is the beginning of making the diffrent classes more and more the same, removing unique abilities, or giving them to other classses aswell. Whats unique about your class if other class has the same with diffrent look and diffrent name but doing the same.
Now all former support classes do dps as dps classes and dps classes support as support classes. Dmbing down and "flaten" down the classes is just an easy way to balance stuff out...

[Mäkelä]

...Blizzard doesn't want that anymore! They want flexibility, they make it. When you'll have the need of a debuff, you'll have the choice with 2 class minimum, so that's good, that's pretty good.

Except Fortitude, you must have at least one priest. Muhahaha!

[Sonic018]

@ Yso: This isn't true anymore, because a real big part of their DPs increase has been nerved now.

1. -5% dmg because of misery, -3% beacuse no one will use curse of elements anymore, -2-5% becaus eimp shadowbolt is limited to wl's. So the base DPS of Shadow's is probably increased by 10-15% in a raid now. (instead of 25% yesterday)
2. the DPS of the other classes has also increased!

Then for gilfanon:

1. This is dumping down the game, because the support in the raid isn't relied on skill anymore, neither on theorycraft. So you can just put a raid togehter with 25 "casual's" and have a brillant supported setup.
2. This change isn't a benefit for everyone. Mages for example got overpowered, and wl's just nerfed. Sp's are just a lost slot to a raid. Instead of balancing, this change is debalancing everything. The classes were better balanced in the Beta before this idea was upcoming.

[Karpalo]

Nope, Shadowpriest now do very good DPS in WotLK.

Yeah untill we start raiding. If you look at our talents NOTHING has been done to increase our scaling. Spelldmg will be still only stat we really benefit from and i doubt blizzard makes tier 7 to have only spellpower spirit and stamina. It propably will once again have shitloads of crit and other wasted atributes cause they cant make SP`s scale with gear upgrades or viceversa cant itemize it properly.

Same shit all over again. Propably close to the top on entry raid and stone cold dead last 2 tiers later dmg wise. Just now SP`s got no* real utility to balance it out...

[Zokten]

Please stop whining, nerds. You can still sit in front of the computer all day as you have done in the past. These changes simply allow us with real lives to raid - I like to enjoy content that I pay for too - even though I don't waste my whole life in WoW.

It's always the same crying game when Blizzard introduces some casual-friendly changes. The sea of whining when they removed attunements for BT/MH flooded the bitspace. Same thing with Arena items.

Careful your fail is showing.

[Mäkelä]

Then for gilfanon:

1. This is dumping down the game, because the support in the raid isn't relied on skill anymore, neither on theorycraft. So you can just put a raid togehter with 25 "casual's" and have a brillant supported setup.
2. This change isn't a benefit for everyone. Mages for example got overpowered, and wl's just nerfed. Sp's are just a lost slot to a raid. Instead of balancing, this change is debalancing everything. The classes were better balanced in the Beta before this idea was upcoming.

1. Raid utility has never required being casual or hardcore. (There are a few exceptions: VT, EW, etc) Maximizing DPS/Healing has been a hardcore trait, and will be required even more, now that you can't come to a raid simply because you have a particular utility.

2. This isn't even an answer to his question, and classes are still being balanced and rebalanced.

[Dareos]

I as a SP feel like I just got placed on the soon to be extinct animal/spec list :-\

Been sitting there with my mage through all of TBC

[darkenrahl]

bye bye class
spriest --> dead
shadow destro --> dead (due to self nerf AND spriest nerf)
affli lock --> blue post said it would be parsed and revised.. revised my ass.. 5% nerf to isb is minor... nerf to spriest isn't.. DEAD too
so you either raid as a demo (granted if you have a elemental shaman it's not even THAT needed..) or fire-lock...

and affli lock utility..
shadow embrace --> self buff
coe = dk's ebon plagueblalblalbla = druid's earth and moon
cor = faerie faire <_>
imp sb = personal <_>

so utility.. wtf, they gave our utility away like a lame-o sell-out policy -.-"

[Belazor]

Wow, there's a lot of nerdrage in this thread.

How about you all SHUT THE F*** UP UNTIL YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW MUCH DPS YOUR CLASS WILL BE DOING!?
Seriously, I didn't think it was possible to be so bloody clueless as you people demonstrate in this thread.

Allow me to explain:
Your utility goes down, your DPS goes up.
See? Simple.
If this turns out not to be true, then your class is broken and you should submit constructive feedback to Blizzard upon reaching Lv80 and trying out raids with people of similar gear quality to you.

DO NOT mindlessly flame Blizzard for the change, when you don't know how it will work.
DO NOT whine that a Retribution Paladin wearing T7 outdps you in your Of the Sorcerer/Bandit greens.
DO NOT simply expect to hit one button and be top DPS.

A DPS spec that also provides utility should have equal DPS to eachother, but below pure DPS classes that offer little or no utility (especially little utility that requires them to stop DPSing).


How many times have you sat in a raid group, waiting for 30 minutes while the officers discuss how to group up the healers and the magical ranged DPS classes. "Ok we have a SPriest and a Resto Shaman in that group, so they can get haste when the healing needs to happen faster + infinite mana. The other SPriest should go in THAT DPS group." then your raid members whine "OMFG WHY DON'T I GET THE MOONKIN I WANT THE CRIT FFZ".
Etcetera.

With this change, the little min/maxing still remaining will be done before raid invites are handed out, and groups can be pretty much the order in which they are invited.
If a Retribution Paladin and a Shadow Priest have signed up, then the raid leader can either invite both, or look at which of them does the most DPS (because both of their utilities are done automatically while doing damage) and invite the best player.

How can this not be a good change?
If you end up finding yourself repeatedly not invited to raids, then you should ask your raid leader why this is. If you consistently do less DPS than the other utility class, then you need to either get better at your class, fix your gems/enchants, or find a guild that is doing content relative to your gear.

Are you so selfish that you want, nay, DEMAND a raid spot just because you provide a certain utility, all the while your DPS is relative to a critter?
If you answer yes to this question, then I am glad you are not in my guild.


That being said, I am unsure about the changes to Judgements of the Wise.
In solo and PvP content, that spell essentially meant infinite mana. I can completely understand how this is too powerful, but I'm just not sure about how long we can in fact last with this new version of it, and how fast the mana will regenerate.
I can do nothing but wait for the PTR, because this needs testing

[sugarfree]

These are some epic changes. I'm not really sure for the best either. This might be watering things down too much in an effort to fix 'undesireable' specs instead of fixing the spec itself.

This.

I refuse to believe they're just too lazy to actually address tree issues rather than trying to bandage it and say "everything's fine." But then...

[Mishella]

I rather take someone to a raid because i deem him a good player rather than because he's playing a class I need.

Hardcore guilds (and I mean those going for world firsts) will do min/maxing no matter what Blizzard would do, so their players might reroll/recruit some different classes. For the rest of us, this will simplify raid composition. No more denying good players cos their class is redundant to raid buffs.

Obviously this means that classes that bring buffs will have their DPS increased, and as far as I know, Blizzard haven't yet begun balacing classes' DPS at 80 in raid environments.

How is this "dumbing down" the game I honestly can't understand.