Why we dont do compettetiv DPS @ lvl 80

[Hawkmight]

1.If Pallys want Rogue level dmg they need some negative effects.. like While in Ret Aura you take 15% more Dmg (like a Fury/Arms Warrior).

All i here from Pallys is BUFF ME BUFF ME... You fail to acknowledge the face that your waring plate and you have no negative effects to your DPS like other DPS classes. Warriors have Zerker Stace, Sham/Hunters are in Mail, Druids/Rogues are in leather, Casters are all in Cloth.

As for the same respect i would say that DK would also need a similar adjustment.

Why not stop bitching about what you should be able to do and offer up reasonable solutions.
Unreasonable: Give me Rogue Damage with no Negative effects
Reasonable: Buff my Damage throu Ret Aura +% all my Dmg and +15% dmg to all incoming dmg.

If your a True DPS that cares about PVE your not worried about getting hit. If your a rolling PvPer thats using the guise of PvE DPS to get your PvP Dmg buffed to unreasonable levels then your going to say that you don't need any "negative effects".

Remember that Pallys are only only class that have a 100% immunity to everything that can be used at anytime. That's a BIG card that limits how much dmg they can/will give you.

Simple math guys... its a +/- System the more "+" you have in things like Surviviability/Armor/Buffs/Healing ect the more "-" you will have in the Dmg department. If you want more "+" in the damage you have to give up some "+" elsewhere (Survivability/Healing/Armor/Buffs). When a Warrior specs Prot he gives up alot of +Dmg/Utility to +Servibility, Same as when he specs in to +Dmg he gives up almost all his servability for +Dmg

Do you even play WoW? this is one of the worst arguments i've seen on why rets should not get to DPS. Should rogues and mail classes loss dodge? Should locks not be able to tap for health and mana? should Hunters and mages lose fein death and iceblock (something that prevents total damage FYI) respectively? By your and others i've seen, Blizz need to delete ever class from the game and make 2 classes with 3 specsCaster DPS(like a mage)/Healer/DOT DPS and Duel wield melee/tank/range melee. The bottom line is, (all DPS being close)if you know your class you will get into raids. You should only be getting replaced by better players not classes. So stop hating.

[Mysmere]

let me repeat, we bring 2% damage taht hunters can bring too. again. thats it. thats it. thats all we have that other dont have all the time already. IT

IT

reallllllllly

[ciel]

I find it hilarious that people that are not in the beta are continuously giving us 'theorycrafting' about it.

Heresay and third-party number reference is nothing more than that.

[mcgenius99]

Do you even play WoW? this is one of the worst arguments i've seen on why rets should not get to DPS. Should rogues and mail classes loss dodge? Should locks not be able to tap for health and mana? should Hunters and mages lose fein death and iceblock (something that prevents total damage FYI) respectively? By your and others i've seen, Blizz need to delete ever class from the game and make 2 classes with 3 specsCaster DPS(like a mage)/Healer/DOT DPS and Duel wield melee/tank/range melee. The bottom line is, (all DPS being close)if you know your class you will get into raids. You should only be getting replaced by better players not classes. So stop hating.

actually he makes alot of sense...you simply can't expect to be at the top of every aspect of the game

[Mysmere]

we're never top, ever. unless you give me 3 specs at the same time. do you understand? no, you dont.

[Judgernaught]

Mate, get over youself. Dont be so effin ignorant. No one said pure classes were everything, we said they are top dps deservdly so because thats all they do. There is more to raids than just DPS. Dont jump on some stupid band wagon when you have no clue. Your lack of dps to the pure classes means you get other benefits that bring to the raid, which we have been saying all along.
This is also why the lesser dpsing specs for the pure classes bring more utility than the number 1 dps spec.

You just need to get over your stupid QQ make everything fair farce. If you dont like what your class is, change. but thats how things work, and they work like that for the better. The game does not revolve around you. " lol hey guys I Tank Heal and TOP DPS WATCH LOLO".

If a person who plays a pure DPS class is pissed that a hybrid is DPSing competitively with them...then why don't they just re roll to a hybrid?

I mean, all I see is everyone telling people who play a hybrid the same rhyme and reason..."Too bad, you don't like your lack of DPS, then re roll. You're a hybrid, blah blah blah, rabble rabble rabble." Well, if you do not like that you cannot tank or heal and that is your reasoning behind why the ret pally should not keep up with your rogue in terms of damage? Re roll.

Anyone remember reckon bombs? Everyone cried....when all they had to do was roll a paladin.

[Adamson]

Again, blue post.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/5/10544...-feedback.html

Ret should be as close to the top as anyone else. Our buckets at this point are basically DPS, Tanks, Healers. When the tank and healer are doing dps, it's even closer.

You may be a couple hundred dps lower than a pure dps class (hunter, mage, warlock, rogue) but for most players, the numbers will be close enough that a raid with a good Retadin and an okay rogue will see Ret on top.

This is a change in philosophy from the BC era, where we would engineer hybrid classes to be 25% to 30% and sometimes much lower than dps classes.

[Spamor]

is a prius as powerful as a ferarri?

Haha
I know that BMW first hybrid has aboute the same amount of hp as the ferrari
And Paladin is the BMW under the hybrids ingame ^^

[Underbar]

First of all i need to say that im disappointed, 5 pages and still only 5 or so constructive posts?

I dont have a problem with doing less DPS then what you call a "pure" dps class. But you have to face the fact: it cant be as big difference as it is now when they hand out all our former unique utility to every single class! When i did brut last night i did 1800 DPS, 2nd last of the DPS only ahead of the shadow priest. The hunters did close to 2500 DPS. We NEED to be within 90-95% of the "pure" classes DPS to be competitive since we dont have a single unique buff/debuff anymore.

@ the people who said that a paladin toped the DPS on patchwerk, did this happened on any other boss? or maybe he is just a buss who suits paladins very good?

And regarding my OP, no one else who have thought about it and think that this might be a part of our problem (bad scaling with more then 2 stats)?

[Admuntour]

I find it amazing how people managed to derail the ret doesn't scale with stats discussion into "ret shouldn't do the damage of a pure class" discussion.
I read all the posts here and I find it even more amazing that lots of people chose to ignore the quote from the blue saying that ret paladins should be near the top of the meters just a few hundreds behind pure classes.
So my first comment is that, people need to wake up and realize that Blizzards philosophy behind damage dealing classes has changed, they now plan on hybrids to do like 90-95% of pure DPSers, and they explicitly said that bringing utility won't penalize classes the way they did back in the BC.
So firstly people need to accept the Blizz new philosophy and stop turning every damn threat into a Hybrid vs Pure discussion.

Now back to the discussion at hand.
At Underbar, I don't think scaling is a problem for retribution, its more of a case that rogues and warriors have been made to scale too well with the other stats, but thats part or their class mecanics any way, however in theory if you stack more of the stats that benefit paladins it shouldn't be that big a problem.
Rogues and warriors benefit the most from armor pen since most of their attacks are physical, paladins on the other hand will do about half their damage now as holy damage.
Haste benefits warriors since they hit faster and generate more rage, rogues get more energy via some talents, that is how the classes where designed, however haste doesn't benefit their instant attacks either.
For paladins more haste means more white hits and more procs, it is still a very nice DPS increase.

What I would do, as a ret paladin, I would probably try and avoid any pieces with armor pen, since it only benefits a part of our attacks, and focus more on strength, crit and haste, since those are the stats that we scale with well, also when it comes to enchants and gems I'd prioritize strength, crit and haste in this order if I could help it.
Strength, with 15% from talents we actually get 1.15 per point of strength on gear, with kings 1.265, and when converted into AP its 2.53, so we have more benefit then warriors from strength, this is the main stat I'd focus, that means pure strength gems in red slots strength and crit gems in yellow slots and strength+stamina gems in blue ones, and this is because everything, judgments, CS, and DS scale from it (AP increases your weapon damage too).
Crit, I had a personal philosophy about crit to never specifically gear for it or gem for it, and now in SWP gear I have like 35% and 2144 AP unbuffed, so crit is a great stat, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get it since from experience you end up having enough.
Haste, I wouldn't go out of my way to gem for haste, but if I could find a piece that had strength, crit and haste I'd take, haste means more attacks, more seal procs and more of those criting.
I would avoid ignore armor wherever possible, less ignore armor means more strength, crit and haste.
Its too bad that our crit talents don't increase the crit damage of white attacks and seal procs, then haste would have become even more valuable.

[LordSidious]

Latest blue post on ret:

Ret should be as close to the top as anyone else. Our buckets at this point are basically DPS, Tanks, Healers. When the tank and healer are doing dps, it's even closer.

You may be a couple hundred dps lower than a pure dps class (hunter, mage, warlock, rogue) but for most players, the numbers will be close enough that a raid with a good Retadin and an okay rogue will see Ret on top.

This is a change in philosophy from the BC era, where we would engineer hybrid classes to be 25% to 30% and sometimes much lower than dps classes.

To quote Obi-Wan Kenobi: a"s if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced" -using the quote in reference to the 'pure' classes going on about their dps and how hybrids shouldnt be able to compete with them.

Right there from Blizzard guys, THEY ARE BLURRING the lines of how hybrids and pure classes work.

Can we please stop the nonsense about "You're a hybrid LOL!!111 you cant dps competitively!" and start re-thinking some stereotypes. Geez.

WoW has been an evolving game, its time to cast away this dumb stereotype of paladins only coming to fights to buff and heal and tank. Those days are gone. Its best to accept that fact and get used to it.


Edit: Bah, it didnt copy into my quote box the post from Blizz.

[Underbar]

Thanks a lot Admuntour, finally a post that i felt gave anything.

[Vamonse]

Why we dont do compettetiv DPS @ lvl 80:

Because you are a defensive hybird as opposed to shaman the offensive hybird. Emphasis on defensive!

[LordSidious]

Why we dont do compettetiv DPS @ lvl 80:

Because you are a defensive hybird as opposed to shaman the offensive hybird. Emphasis on defensive!

Here ya go, I know that reading other posts can be tedious and its easier to jump to the end of a thread and just shoot in a quick witty response.

From Blizz:

Latest blue post on ret:

Ret should be as close to the top as anyone else. Our buckets at this point are basically DPS, Tanks, Healers. When the tank and healer are doing dps, it's even closer.

You may be a couple hundred dps lower than a pure dps class (hunter, mage, warlock, rogue) but for most players, the numbers will be close enough that a raid with a good Retadin and an okay rogue will see Ret on top.

This is a change in philosophy from the BC era, where we would engineer hybrid classes to be 25% to 30% and sometimes much lower than dps classes.

I guess the part about a change in philosophy from BC era was confusing you.

Thank you come again Vamonse

[Necrox]

So my first comment is that, people need to wake up and realize that Blizzards philosophy behind damage dealing classes has changed, they now plan on hybrids to do like 90-95% of pure DPSers, and they explicitly said that bringing utility won't penalize classes the way they did back in the BC.
So firstly people need to accept the Blizz new philosophy and stop turning every damn threat into a Hybrid vs Pure discussion.

*sigh of relief*
So I'm not the only one.

On track:
As someone who's gearing up from nothing, I would put crit first on priority. But once you hit 25% crit, I would take it off my priority list completely and go with the rest of what the above poster suggests.
Most of the current rets already have 25%+ even before the expansion hits I should think, so as long as that holds true I would completely ignore it. Around 30-35% is a sweet spot, and you'll get there fast automatically, simply because a lot of the gearing for plate dps has it.

I've been looking at loads of threads about this and tried to mine some data through what people says, but in effect I've found very little actual PROOF that there is an issue at 80. Most of the people who claims that seem to be PTR players who has nothing to base it on.
I've found very little from actual BETA testers to suggest that this is so.

The only things of note that I've heard from beta players are the following:

1) The Paladin is a very gear dependant class. As such, when we hit 80 we will be lower than the not so gear dependant classes, but as soon as we go into the epic sets, we seem to be catching up.

2) Ret Paladins are getting (almost) all their skills/improvements at 70. That will make us a LOT more powerful than the classes who gets loads of new stuff between 71-80... but only AT 70. As soon as their new goodies start coming in, they will start catching up and even at times overtaking us substantially - until we start getting the good gear after 80, at which point it evens out (if all goes well with the current number tweaking we should be just below the pure dps classes by 5-10% max).

If this holds true as intended, I'm a very happy bunny indeed.

[wovi]

First of all i want to say that im not in the beta so i dont have any self-experiences of this, but this is what ive been "told" from different forums and movies.

I think that explains it right there. Ret pallies are amazing right now in beta, even now that they've fixed their damage coefficients and they can't kill people in one hoj duration. Their DPS in naxx is awesome because everything is undead, but they do great dps in 5-mans and other 10-mans as well. 3/4 of the beta server wishes they had rolled ret pally right now.

[Necrox]

Can a skinny rogue who's good a hiding because of his small frame hit as hard as the big knight with loads of strength and stamina from being used to wearing heavy armour? And can he cast spells?

Also can trolls go away?

[Biral]

Why don't paladins, or other hybrids compete with Rogues, Mages, Warlocks, and Hunters? Because they are pure dps, and you are a hybrid. Its only fair that they out dps you, and you will never out dps them for the sole reason that they are PURE DPS only, they dont have any other options, whereas you do. Your dps options are minimal to theirs because you also have the option to tank and heal.
This is why they gave your dps spec alot more utility compared to rogues. Dont ever expect to beat a Pure DPS as a hybrid ever again please. You know the reason.

I have the option of respeccing and tanking if I have the gear, or respeccing and healing if I have the gear.

I have the option of playing something I don't want to play.

I have the option of playing as something I do want to play.

I have the option of filling a DPS role in a raid/group.

I choose to fill that DPS role.

Ohh look, even though I chose to be DPS, people with less skill than I can faceroll a "pure DPS" class and be better than me.

So much for options.

[LordSidious]

can a knight in full plate armor attack as fast or with as much finesse as someone wearing a thin layer of leather?

If we are going to be silly like that then no one in WoW should be able to swim across rivers etc without taking all of their armor off. Its not very 'realistic' to have people swimming in the game with full armor on, regardless if its cloth or plateor leather or whatever.

[coldethyl]

Pure vs hybred From the persepctive of a Pure dps main(mage killed it all up to the brut)

Here is the deal from our side as pures,we have one reason to be invited to a raid,do you want me to dps this way ,dps that way , or dps from the third column? as a paladin or druid you have 3 possible avenues of invite for a raid,you can dps,tank,or heal.Granted at the beginning of raiding the availability of off spec gear will be low,but after a month or two every guild will have pallys and druids with 2 decent sets of gear(one a little better than the other but both raid viable)

It used to be that you traded hi end potential for the ability to switch tasks ,while pures had no other options and truely excelled at what they did,now the pures will only be a 5% advantage over the hybreds,5% is not enough of a reason to take a pure,especially when the "utility" that has been tacked on to the pures is substandard to the hybred versions(ill still take shadow priest, pallyor shaman flavor mana regen over the water elemental version any day)

3-4 months into lichking when many of the hybreds have 2 or 3 good gear sets pures will have to start re rolling,in a medium sized guild (25-35 raiders) a natrual progression towards those that show playing hybreds to make fielding a viable raid that much easier will occour.if you have 15 100%ers and 13 of them play multirole capable classes you will always be able to get a raid off the ground at the cost of a few respecs,so those that limited themselves to a pure class will be slowly pushed out of the fold.

Every guild out there has one tolken that they feel drops too much and one that drops not enough,in all of tier 5 and 6 for my guild the druid,pally,and shaman classes were always the benefeciaries.Our pallys and druids were completeing 3rd sets before our priests were completeing there first ones.50% cost on off spec gear and 25% cost on off spec healing gear through our epgp system does make it easier to get multi sets,but off spec gear is only available at discounted cost if noone want the item for there main spec

Im not saying I want pures to be the 20-30% over hybreds they currently are,but we do need a way to shine,and its not our new utility.3 years ago I sacrified armor and survivability for damage potential,and it scares me that someone with healing spells and wearing plate armor is going to be 95% as effective at damageing things as I am.Im not 15% to 25% less killable as a trade off.maybee give mages ice encasement a self cast 60 minute buff that provides the equivalent of wearing plate armor when combined with my feble cloth damage mitagation or add lay on hands to my water elementals pet bar perhaps borrow from old school D&D and give mages tensers transformation a spell that increased your health and armor and melee skills to the point you were as effective as a fighter of equal level.they will never happen and they shouldnt,but from my side they are equal in there rediculousness to a ret having all its other abilitys while doing 5% less damage than me.