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  1. #1
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    [Balance] Crit no longer updates dynamically

    So I asked a question in PTR GC thread and got a response. It's good that they addressed it now with the Lei Shen trinket on its' way. The news is good for us.

    Could you explain why Balance Druid dots function differently with respect to Crit than every other class' dots? Currently Crit updates dynamically for Balance Druids whereas other classes get snapshot values.

    Good question. We decided to dig into all of the dots and found they worked pretty inconsistently. (Consistency isn't always critical because it does lead to a certain amount of homogeneity, but too little consistency can just be confusing too.) We made a pass at all of the class dots and made them snapshot crit chance. This will have implications in any simulations out there.

    However, this has some implications on the Unerring Vision of Lei Shen trinket. We’re tentatively fine with the idea of you seeing that proc go off, and reapplying DoTs which crit for their whole duration, in most cases. There’s a couple cases where those periodic crits cause other effects, which end up being very powerful. For example, a Balance Druid can now apply Moonfire and Sunfire, and pretty much chain instant Starsurges for 15 sec, many of which are extending that Moonfire and Sunfire, probably out to 20-25 sec. That’s extremely strong, but we’re going to try leaving it alone for now.

    The one which is simply too strong to leave is for Shadow. For Shadow having Unerring Vision and the PvE set bonuses would mean that every SW:P tick guaranteed crits, so spawns a Shadowy Apparition, which has a 65% chance of extending SW:P and VT. And the VT ticks have a 10% chance of spawning a Shadowy Apparition as well. And both can trigger a mastery tick, both of which can also spawn another Shadowy Apparition. The net result is that the feedback loop is so strong that in attainable gear, it’s net positive, resulting in SW:P and VT lasting forever (or at least until you get very unlucky and get a long string of failed procs, which will probably take several minutes to happen).

    Since 100% crit SW:P and VT that never need to be refreshed is a wee bit too strong, we’re building in a failsafe. We’re fine with you getting a normal SW:P/VT duration of all crits, but not forever. When Shadowy Apparition extends SW:P and VT, and that DoT has already lasted longer than its normal duration, it will recalculate its crit chance. The result should be that the trinket procs, you reapply SW:P/VT, and get 18/15 sec of crits, then they drop to your normal crit chance.

  2. #2
    "For example, a Balance Druid can now apply Moonfire and Sunfire, and pretty much chain instant Starsurges for 15 sec, many of which are extending that Moonfire and Sunfire, probably out to 20-25 sec. That’s extremely strong, but we’re going to try leaving it alone for now."

    This is strong... too strong.

    A strong 'IF', but IF this sticks our opening burst is going to be insane... 50k ticks on each dot, couple ticks of Starfall crits, starsurge extending those crit dots.

    I'm gonna do some math when I get home if someone doesn't beat me to the punch.
    Last edited by Kilma; 2013-02-16 at 03:05 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilma View Post
    This is strong... too strong.
    I'd say the trinket won't survive long after it is put on the Flaskataur.

  4. #4
    I still think the trinket will exist but classes will get the changes... Remember it drops off the end boss of the tier. (Ra-den is optional and heroic-only) It will be a hard trinket to get especially with 15+ items on the loot table that are also possible drops.

    Think of it like 8-10% drop chance in the form of some quasi-legendary trinket. This item needs to stay good or people will just disenchant end-boss gear.

    I'm probably wrong, but I hope its a rare item or classes will get nerfed as a result. (Spriest already got changes because of this trinket)

    Side-note: Since our DoTs won't update dynamically that is a small buff for Balance Druids opener right there even without that trinket.
    Last edited by Kilma; 2013-02-16 at 03:36 AM.

  5. #5
    Moderator Stommped's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilma View Post
    I still think the trinket will exist but classes will get the changes... Remember it drops off the end boss of the tier. (Ra-den is optional and heroic-only) It will be a hard trinket to get especially with 15+ items on the loot table that are also possible drops.

    Think of it like 8-10% drop chance in the form of some quasi-legendary trinket. This item needs to stay good or people will just disenchant end-boss gear.

    I'm probably wrong, but I hope its a rare item or classes will get nerfed as a result. (Spriest already got changes because of this trinket)

    Side-note: Since our DoTs won't update dynamically that is a small buff for Balance Druids opener right there even without that trinket.
    Well keep in mind the LFR version of this trinket is still the same 100% crit chance. So it really isn't at all difficult to obtain the portion of this trinket that is overpowered.

  6. #6
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilma View Post
    I still think the trinket will exist but classes will get the changes... Remember it drops off the end boss of the tier. (Ra-den is optional and heroic-only) It will be a hard trinket to get especially with 15+ items on the loot table that are also possible drops.

    Think of it like 8-10% drop chance in the form of some quasi-legendary trinket. This item needs to stay good or people will just disenchant end-boss gear.

    I'm probably wrong, but I hope its a rare item or classes will get nerfed as a result. (Spriest already got changes because of this trinket)

    Side-note: Since our DoTs won't update dynamically that is a small buff for Balance Druids opener right there even without that trinket.
    http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/94524-une...on-of-lei-shen

    According to Wowdb it drops off Lei Shen (the Thunder King) so I'd think that was the 2nd last boss of the instance. LFR and normal versions should exist of this trinket.

  7. #7
    They should really nerf that trinket now rather than later, it's going to happen eventually and people will be pissed that they wasted DKP and coins on it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kilma View Post
    "For example, a Balance Druid can now apply Moonfire and Sunfire, and pretty much chain instant Starsurges for 15 sec, many of which are extending that Moonfire and Sunfire, probably out to 20-25 sec. That’s extremely strong, but we’re going to try leaving it alone for now."

    This is strong... too strong.

    A strong 'IF', but IF this sticks our opening burst is going to be insane... 50k ticks on each dot, couple ticks of Starfall crits, starsurge extending those crit dots.

    I'm gonna do some math when I get home if someone doesn't beat me to the punch.
    It's an RPPM trinket not an ICD trinket, there is absolutely zero guarantee that it will proc in your opener.

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  9. #9
    Honestly if this beast goes live, just in terms of pvp as balance. This will be extremely sick, we would be able to chain cast starsurges that will kill an oponent many times over. Its just redicilous to think it will go live as it is now, if it does any balance druid that gets a hold of this trinket will get an extreme increase in dps then what is proportional to the strength an upgrade of a trinket should have.

    Not to mention starsurge gets 10 % increase in damage with tier 15 2 piece. And i dont know if natures grace can stack but if it can since we would be spamming starsurges we could get double natures grace. Which is empowered by our tier 15 4 piece. If this trinket go live and our dots snapshot (even if they do the same thing with our dots as they did to shadow priests) this is some insaaane crazy shit. Any balance druid that use dkp in their raid will want to save it all up for this trinket.
    Last edited by Taft; 2013-02-16 at 12:48 PM.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Adramalech's Avatar
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    You know, reading that description of snapshotting the crit and just basically spamming Starsurges made a chill run down my spine. I do not see this lasting long.
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  11. #11

  12. #12
    Except that when we have 2xshooting stars procs back to back there is a short "delay" in the CD of starsurge being reset for #2 so we might have to weave in starfire/ wrath instead of starsurge spams imo. I've had this a few times, unless this is also being addressed in 5.2 as it is pretty annoying.

    EDIT: At least for single target anyway.
    Last edited by craigp100; 2013-02-16 at 01:58 PM.

  13. #13
    I hope the trinket will be removed or something made to counter the issue. I feel like it's going to be a case of DI in Cataclysm, where you could do competitive DPS with it but not without. Now it's just an item instead of a buff.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by craigp100 View Post
    Except that when we have 2xshooting stars procs back to back there is a short "delay" in the CD of starsurge being reset for #2 so we might have to weave in starfire/ wrath instead of starsurge spams imo. I've had this a few times, unless this is also being addressed in 5.2 as it is pretty annoying.

    EDIT: At least for single target anyway.
    this is because of travel time, rectified, in a lot of cases, by standing closer to the boss


    imagine popping CA on a proc and getting 8 dots up. i hope to god i get this trinket for the 3 glorious days before its nerfed.
    Last edited by crunk; 2013-02-16 at 02:26 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by craigp100 View Post
    Except that when we have 2xshooting stars procs back to back there is a short "delay" in the CD of starsurge being reset for #2 so we might have to weave in starfire/ wrath instead of starsurge spams imo. I've had this a few times, unless this is also being addressed in 5.2 as it is pretty annoying.

    EDIT: At least for single target anyway.
    That's the travel delay. You can only ever have a single Starsurge in the air.

  16. #16
    this really is a subtle but very good buff to moondruid. now, i wonder, where does this put windsong for weapon enchants. i know they were pretty close in theoretical dps before, but it seems like an extra 3ish percent crit on dots that can be extended for 17+ seconds could make it pull ahead

  17. #17
    I don't really see why only one Starsurge can be in the air at one time. If you cast one and get a SS proc immediately after, you can get two in the air simultaneously.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    I don't really see why only one Starsurge can be in the air at one time. If you cast one and get a SS proc immediately after, you can get two in the air simultaneously.
    I looked into this a little bit more, it boils down to not being 'allowed' to what has been said with 2 of the same spell in the air as well as client / server lag and is also the case for other classes as well for pvp reasons (i.e elemental shamans and lava burst procs) otherwise it would be insanely OP i'm told.

  19. #19
    Umm, ok. But what does this mean then? I can't see any think even to suggest this is happening when just shooting at dummies and on gimmick fights (especially Alysrazor), chaincasting Starsurges isn't uncommon. I'm confused about this.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Alzu View Post
    Umm, ok. But what does this mean then? I can't see any think even to suggest this is happening when just shooting at dummies and on gimmick fights (especially Alysrazor), chaincasting Starsurges isn't uncommon. I'm confused about this.
    Have you been standing at maximum range when trying that? You can chain procs just fine when you're hopping around on your targets feet. On fights like Ragnaros, on the other hand...

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