Why do 25man dungeons?!

[Zethyr]

There's nothing stopping anyone from gearing up in both Naxx 10 and Naxx 25 the same week though, since they are on different "Savings"...so the best gear progression would be gained from farming both each week until enough people have enough gear for the next tier of raiding. *shrugs*

[babathong]

That attitude is all fine and well sir, for you maybe. But I like many players of WoW have done the same thing and not gotten any farther than ZA due to restraints beyond WoW. Family, friends, jobs and life as whole should not be a thing that holds you back from doing all you want in WoW. My guild is a group of quality players that is valued as raid partner by any guild on our server but because we are a group of real life working stooges that take WoW in moderation we alone have never been able to break deep into 25 man content. This new set up alleviates the frustration that so many WoW players feel.

I will always be in slight awe of the guy in 25 man gear, which is good, Now though I won't have to be in awe of his gear AND what he has seen. Gear is awesome but being denied both gear AND content because my life is such that I physically can not dedicate the time and resources to play WoW the way the hardcore raid guilds do. Remember, this is for all of us, that HArdcore raiding is great but honestly if all the hardcore raiders up and left WoW, Blizzard would only be missing MAYBE 10% of it's player base. Not much when you consider the size of the community. Another expansion of exclusive content on an aging engine and with stiff competition coming online would likely result in Blizz losing a major portion of its everyday players. A number much greater than 10% for sure.

Look, let me start by saying I work no less than 48 hours a week. I too, have a life outside of WoW, a very busy one at that. Your point is well taken, and I now see it from a different perspective. There are many people out there with the talent and ability to raid places like Sunwell, but just dont have the time to dedicate to the guilds that are raiding that content. Those people are certainly no less deserving of seeing the end game content as the others. I agree with all your points, but my only point is that I am afraid that alot of the mediocre guilds and players will easily get to see all the end game content as well. Im not some asshole who doesnt want anyone to be good or see the whole game. Im only speaking from experience and how long it took for me to finally get to where I am at. I just think it would be a shame for Blizzard to take that away from that 10% that you were talking about. Shouldnt that small percentage be able to have some sort of extra type of achievement? I dont know about other people but imagine if Kiljaeden was available for both 10 and 25 man raids. If one person says they killed KJ on 10 man version and the other says he did it on the 25 man version I just dont believe that it will be looked at with that much of a difference. At the end of the day both guilds or people can say they killed Kiljaeden or whoever the boss may be. The difference in 10/25 wont be that much in regards to guild stature.

In BC, there was a fine line that seperated the really good guilds that raided Hyjal and BT and even some Sunwell, and the other really really really good guilds that cleared Sunwell. I think this fine line will disappear and there will be so many more guilds that kill the bosses in every single raid that comes with the xpac. Like I said, your points are all very valid and I guess there is no other real solution to make the majority of people happy. Personally, Im not on any high horse cuz I know what its like to be looked down upon cuz of gear and class (ret). Now that Iv seen the whole game, I feel a sense of accomplishment, thats all. I just dont want to lose that once the xpac comes.

[coMModus]

Look, let me start by saying I work no less than 48 hours a week. I too, have a life outside or WoW, a very busy one at that. Your point is well taken, and I now see it from a different perspective. There are many people out there with the talent and ability to raid places like Sunwell, but just dont have the time to dedicate to the guilds that are raiding that content. Those people are certainly no less deserving of seeing the end game content as the others. I agree with all your points, but my only point is that I am afraid that alot of the mediocre guilds and players will easily get to see all the end game content as well. Im not some asshole who doesnt want anyone to be good or see the whole game. Im only speaking from experience and how long it took for me to finally get to where I am at. I just think it would be a shame for Blizzard to take that away from that 10% that you were talking about. Shouldnt that small percentage be able to have some sort of extra type of achievement? I dont know about other people but imagine if Kiljaeden was available for both 10 and 25 man raids. If one person says they killed KJ on 10 man version and the other says he did it on the 25 man version I just dont believe that it will be looked at with that much of a difference. At the end of the day both guilds or people can say they killed Kiljaeden or whoever the boss may be. The difference in 10/25 wont be that much in regards to guild stature.

In BC, there was a fine line that seperated the really good guilds that raided Hyjal and BT and even some Sunwell, and the other really really really good guilds that cleared Sunwell. I think this fine line will disappear and there will be so many more guilds that kill the bosses in every single raid that comes with the xpac. Like I said, your points are all very valid and I guess there is no other real solution to make the majority of people happy. Personally, Im not on any high horse cuz I know what its like to be looked down upon cuz of gear and class (ret). Now that Iv seen the whole game, I feel a sense of accomplishment, thats all. I just dont want to lose that once the xpac comes.

couldn't agree with you more.

anyone knows how bosses will be in the 10 man raids compared with the 25 man ones? is it going to be a totally different encounter that we have to master in the 25 man version? because if i'm gonna go to the 25 man version of the boss and just deal with 2-3 extra abilities in the same place i trained for the 10 man one, it doesn't sound very appealing.

[Raktor]

Isn't one of the 25-person instances not accessible unless you have a key from one of the deep bosses in Naxx 10?

Sapphiron drops the item for the normal key in naxx 10 to access the 10 man Iris in Malygos's lair. In naxx 25 sapphiron drops another version that allows access to both 10 and 25 man Iris in Malygos's lair. The iris starts the fight.

[Lonan]

Look, let me start by saying I work no less than 48 hours a week. I too, have a life outside of WoW, a very busy one at that. Your point is well taken, and I now see it from a different perspective. There are many people out there with the talent and ability to raid places like Sunwell, but just dont have the time to dedicate to the guilds that are raiding that content. Those people are certainly no less deserving of seeing the end game content as the others. I agree with all your points, but my only point is that I am afraid that alot of the mediocre guilds and players will easily get to see all the end game content as well. Im not some asshole who doesnt want anyone to be good or see the whole game. Im only speaking from experience and how long it took for me to finally get to where I am at. I just think it would be a shame for Blizzard to take that away from that 10% that you were talking about. Shouldnt that small percentage be able to have some sort of extra type of achievement? I dont know about other people but imagine if Kiljaeden was available for both 10 and 25 man raids. If one person says they killed KJ on 10 man version and the other says he did it on the 25 man version I just dont believe that it will be looked at with that much of a difference. At the end of the day both guilds or people can say they killed Kiljaeden or whoever the boss may be. The difference in 10/25 wont be that much in regards to guild stature.

In BC, there was a fine line that seperated the really good guilds that raided Hyjal and BT and even some Sunwell, and the other really really really good guilds that cleared Sunwell. I think this fine line will disappear and there will be so many more guilds that kill the bosses in every single raid that comes with the xpac. Like I said, your points are all very valid and I guess there is no other real solution to make the majority of people happy. Personally, Im not on any high horse cuz I know what its like to be looked down upon cuz of gear and class (ret). Now that Iv seen the whole game, I feel a sense of accomplishment, thats all. I just dont want to lose that once the xpac comes.

From the way it seems to me having dug through all the beta information I can get my greedy hands on there will be a clear line between 25 man and 10 man guilds. 25 man guilds will have the skill and player base to clear 25 and 10 man versions off all instances and get all the gear that entitles them to. Knowing the WoW player base this will be seen as a real accomplishment. Everyone will know their names, respect what they have done and ogle over the gear they have.

10 man raiding guilds will be known for their accomplishments too. They will have cleared all of the content available to them and maybe get the chance top see the 25 man encounters a few tiers back from their highest progression with another larger guild. Players will be able to apply and join one or the other and get to play the game in a way that is best suited to them.

Both types of end game raids will require a great level of skill to do, just on a different level perhaps. I have no fear that the asshats and under achievers of WoW will still be just that. They will not be able to cut it in either realm and will still be known for what they are. All players deserving of content will be rewarded with it and with gear based upon their abilities to organize and dedicate time to the game. Those that are not deserving will still be undeserving and not reap the benefits. This may seem a cold attitude but lets face it there are good players and bad players nothing will change that, not even 10 man end game raiding.

[Izenhart]

This, and maybe 10 mans are a joke. Challenges in raiding are fun.

^ This and that quote before his this. (...)

So you are actually trying to say
"If we can easymode everything and get uberepics for free, why bothering doing challenging fights?
Of course, that makes no sense, and, on top of that, when WotLK will come you won't have 5-6-7 raid dungeons in a row, but they will be taken live slowly, like they did with MH, BT, and SWP.
So basically, even thinking with your logic, when you've achieved raid dungeon 4 10 man epic set, and Blizz will release the new raid dungeon 5 in 4 months, whachagonnado? wait 4 months to a new ezmode set or clear the 25 man ones?

[Baever]

10 mans are for the casual players
thats why attunments were lifted in BC
thats why some bosses got hit with a nerfbat
thats why theres equal amounts of 10 mans as there are 25's
exact same encounters
just less people and lower gear lvl
simply making less people quit the game from a pve prospective
P.S. no idea if this was said, didnt want my eyes to bleed from the useless walls of text

edit: typos are srz biznz

Ten-mans are not for casuals, they are for small guilds (whether or not said small guilds are casually orientated is a mere coincidence).

Think of it this way, just starting Kara from scratch using blues and heroic/crafted gear, it took some guilds multiple days and 3-4 hour sittings just to clear it until players had enough gear to breeze through, and even now, your typical pug still takes three hours in badge gear (so really, 'over-geared').

Keep in mind, those are the guilds composed of people who refer to themselves as 'casuals.'

Guess how long it takes to clear Black Temple up to Illidan? Four hours without wipes IF you still have a large number of members missing their 4pc (so in other words, it could be much faster).

Hyjal? Two and a half hours, easy.

So honestly, what makes someone casual and someone hardcore? I see people investing a fraction of time when compared to 'casuals,' yet are up to SWP in content. Time comparison just isn't cutting it anymore.

[Khadir]

So maybe this has been brought up before, but I am dying to know what people think about this.

Let's say you're in a raiding guild, and your goal (as most are) is to get the best gear you can get as soon as you can.

Stopped reading here. The goal of a true raiding guild is progress. Killing bosses, harder bosses and even harder bosses. For a true raider raiding is a chalange and killing new boses is the goal, the gear is the tool to achieve it, never the main goal. If it is yours then you are an "epic whore" not a raider.

[Odyssasthai]

I love how everyone attmepts to insult 10-man or 25-man players, depending on their POV. It's pretty interesting. :P

Regardless, to answer the question of "Why do 25man dungeons?!":

There's going to be a lot of players that still do 25-man, but you're definitely going to see a drop in the pool of available players.

A certain percentage of current 25-man players don't like 25-man, but realize it's the only game in town as far as progression goes. Come WotLK, those people probably won't be available.

As far as gear goes, ZA gear and SSC gear are relatively comparable in terms of loot... and many more people chose to do ZA than SSC. I think you'll see the same thing in WotLK. I suspect many people will choose to do 10-man Ulduar over doing 25-man Nax (provided they did 10-man Nax, that is.)

[Zamfix]

Because the loot is better.

[Gigza]

Because ninja looting is just so much more fun in a group of 25

[Slade]

Stopped reading here. The goal of a true raiding guild is progress. Killing bosses, harder bosses and even harder bosses. For a true raider raiding is a chalange and killing new boses is the goal, the gear is the tool to achieve it, never the main goal. If it is yours then you are an "epic whore" not a raider.

Very true. And I would never look down upon 10-man raiders who were as successful as their 25-man counterparts. I think good 25 man raiders will do it because they like the larger, more complex feel. The fights will be tuned to challenge and utilize their respective raid sizes. And as stated, the 25-man gear is a set of tools for 25 man raids, 10 man gear for 10 man raids. It has little or nothing to do with a representation of actual skill. "Epic Whores" will always exist, however, and they merely represent the selfish urges of those who are insecure in life and feel that the gear with the best stats will make them more popular, envied, and better at life, thus giving them the illusion that they have conquered their insecurity. Those types are also often the players that will join guilds for a short amount of time, and cut and run without warning after they feel they've gotten the most gear they could with the smallest investment.

I think the greater appeal of 10-man raids relates to the guilds that will run them. They will best suit those smaller, tighter, more loyal guilds and groups of friends that have good synergy together. This presents much less of a problem with "Epic Whores" than guilds running 25-mans, where people are coming and going much more often, relationships and leadership come into constant conflict, and the inevitable and cyclical guild-collapse scenario takes effect. Personally I enjoy the bigger, more epic feel of 25-man raids, but for me it's outwieghed by the drama, the egos, the conflicts and unpredictability of having to play within an organization of 40 or more guild members. I have a group of 9 friends that all get along great and could progress through the whole expansion with very little conflict and alot more time for fun. But something tells me that there will be "Epic-Whore" haters, no doubt, that will scough at the stats on my 10-man gear compared to their 25-man counterparts. No matter though, it's all relative to the challenge you are facing. One should respect an acheivement in its context; not just placed among all achievments and then degraded.

[Furs]

I don't believe in the black and white picture of hardcore and casual. Casuals, in my opinion, play the game maybe 1-2 times a week for a few hours and will never advance far in any aspects of wow. I think there will be alot of guilds with these casuals that will dangle their feet in 10 mans, but won't get anywhere. Just like it was in karazhan in the beginning and zul'aman now to a lesser extent. If you are to progress in any part of world of warcraft you gotta invest alot of time. I think the 10 man versions are great for small groups of players that know eachother well and have fun playing with eachother.

[smartAXE]

Ten-mans are not for casuals, they are for small guilds (whether or not said small guilds are casually orientated is a mere coincidence).

Think of it this way, just starting Kara from scratch using blues and heroic/crafted gear, it took some guilds multiple days and 3-4 hour sittings just to clear it until players had enough gear to breeze through, and even now, your typical pug still takes three hours in badge gear (so really, 'over-geared').

Keep in mind, those are the guilds composed of people who refer to themselves as 'casuals.'

Guess how long it takes to clear Black Temple up to Illidan? Four hours without wipes IF you still have a large number of members missing their 4pc (so in other words, it could be much faster).

Hyjal? Two and a half hours, easy.

So honestly, what makes someone casual and someone hardcore? I see people investing a fraction of time when compared to 'casuals,' yet are up to SWP in content. Time comparison just isn't cutting it anymore.

so these small guilds are not casual? they;re hardcore?
in this case
they would be looking for more people to start grp #2 and go into 25's
p.s. i care how long it takes to clear bt/mh because? it was 100% irrelevent to the 10/25 man post that we're in
p.p.s. im from a server that pugs mh/bt/swp so dont think i don't know anything cause i said what i did

[Astanmos]

Because ninja looting is just so much more fun in a group of 25

I like it.

[HolySdrJR]

I'll be in 10-mans in WotLK, and despite what some might think, skill has never been my guild's problem. Getting 25 people together with the degree of skill we expect, yes. To get enough to fill a 25-man raid we had to let in some types that really didn't 'fit' with the guild. We'll send them on their way in WotLK and get back to the fun of raiding with 9 of my skilled friends at a time, and not having to bring in other idiots who just want to raid for some 'lewtz'. I'm sure my guild will be one that does the 'hard mode' 10-man achievements, too.

qft

[ManniAT]

25s are there because they are great

I mean what I say -- it is funny to make timeruns in ZA, but to raid BT is quite different.
For us it looks like this: we use DKP, Raidplaner, dedicated RL, Lootmaster, Loot priority and so on with our BT, SWP Raids.
ZA is (except our Bear-Group) something like: "Hey I'm bored, anyone else too?" -- 5 Minutes later you find yourself in ZA.

Of course the situation is different at the moment.
Almost every member has 4pcs T6 and so we are "top equiped".

With WotLK we will start almost from scratch.
Of course we hope things will be easiere - as for T3 in Kara - but we have to equip again.

Did anyone think of the transition?
So in November first you do is start leveling. (We will stop raiding for that time).
Some of our member already planed holidays for this (me too) :
Now after 2 or 3 Weeks SOME of our members will be 80 and ready for raiding.
And thats the time where 10s come in.
We get experience there - new equip and so on.
This will last for another couple of weeks - till enough members are ready and we can rebuild our 25 man raidgroup.
Go there - learn it's to hare - not a problem - make two groups of 10 members.

Our maingoal will be 25s - but if someone is bored... or with twinks... or to get used a new instance a bit...

If I had to say a word: I would build 2 or 3 25 man only dungeons - extra to the 10/25.

[Frovi]

If I had to say a word: I would build 2 or 3 25 man only dungeons - extra to the 10/25.

Why exactly? Cant see any logic behind it, except from making the same misstake as in TBC....

[ManniAT]

Two main reasons:
a.) To leave a little "Elite space"
b.) To give "really new things" - not just a "big version" of the 10 man stuff

BUT - I'm only on PTR (no beta) and so I don't know how different 10/25s are.
If it's nothing more than a bit bigger groups, more boss HP and so (like Heroics) this would be bad.
If there is really a great difference - forget my last sentence.

Or to try to state this simple: 25s as the heroic of 10 man dungeons is one thing.
Really NEW content in the 25s is the thing I would like.
Not exclusive - but at least for a little number of dungeons.
Just to have contet which needs "all of the guilds effort and power".

Sorry I'm no native speaker but I hope what I wrote is understandable.

[Schippi]

My guild is a group of quality players that is valued as raid partner by any guild on our server but because we are a group of real life working stooges that take WoW in moderation we alone have never been able to break deep into 25 man content. This new set up alleviates the frustration that so many WoW players feel.

we are a 70 account big guild, having MANY ( i only know a few without work) people who raid only 1-2 per week 3,5hours. they have children, are in football clubs etc and dont have much time.
BUT these people all go to sunwell. we progress really slow, cause many people need gear blablubb, but "no time" is not an argument versus "high raid" or whatever


i dislike the system, becase i will run both & will see every boss 2times a week, even if they are not completly the same

bad spelling - i know..