Maybe ret will be ok?

[Zarwyn]

Mages have an inc nerf as well. Plus blizz said they are looking at lowering pop dmg as a whole. What do you all think?

[Sadistic47]

Yea, I've got a feeling we'll be fine once the crit dmg bonus loss goes into effect and everyone will calm down a bit. And eventually all these new ret changes/abilities will just seem to be normal. Big changes always cause problems when laid upon a community this size, but once people adapt and get used to it...I think we'll be ok.

[Trovalor]

Until I see the balance hammer hit other classes like it has paladins (especially warriors, rogues, balance druids and hunters) I have no faith that this game will be anything close to balanced by the time WotLK goes live. So far Ret is just turning into a watered down arms warrior again with trivial healing utility.

[jst1998]

Until I see the balance hammer hit other classes like it has paladins (especially warriors, rogues, balance druids and hunters) I have no faith that this game will be anything close to balanced by the time WotLK goes live. So far Ret is just turning into a watered down arms warrior again with trivial healing utility.

To say that Ret pallys have only "trivial healing utility" is a bit of a joke. Have you checked BG and Arena stats lately? Ret pallys heal about 50% of what holy pallys heal by just dps'ing. I've stated this before and people usually think I'm exaggerating, but look at the stats. Bottom line: even though they specialize in dps, they heal for huge amounts without having to do direct healing spells.

I'm pretty happy with Ret. Blizzard did what they needed to do so Ret pallys can compete with any other dps class. The "nerfs" which are really only minor tweaks are not changing that.

[Ebb]

To say that Ret pallys have only "trivial healing utility" is a bit of a joke. Have you checked BG and Arena stats lately? Ret pallys heal about 50% of what holy pallys heal by just dps'ing. I've stated this before and people usually think I'm exaggerating, but look at the stats. Bottom line: even though they specialize in dps, they heal for huge amounts without having to do direct healing spells.

I'm pretty happy with Ret. Blizzard did what they needed to do so Ret pallys can compete with any other dps class. The "nerfs" which are really only minor tweaks are not changing that.

Group of friends and I ran gruul/mag with 15 people last night and the ret pal out healed all 3 healers....considering we only had 3 healers thats even more amazing imo.

[LoLHoly]

Until I see the balance hammer hit other classes like it has paladins (especially warriors, rogues, balance druids and hunters) I have no faith that this game will be anything close to balanced by the time WotLK goes live. So far Ret is just turning into a watered down arms warrior again with trivial healing utility.

Agreed on other class balance (preferably upgrading our class to meet theirs than a global nerf).

I don't see Ret as a watered down Arms though. SoL healing isn't bad, JotW is sick, and their damage has only gone up (especially burst in PvP). I don't know how they fair raid-buffed as it's not my game plan.

For a "hybrid" I guarantee you that when specced properly the Paladin class does a better job as a DPS tool than a healer. Even deep ret can heal almost as well (if not better with SoL crits) than a Healadin (ex: my member name, haha).

[Usul]

I dunno, I think they are hitting us too hard with the nerfs on the PVE side of things. I'm sure PVP'ers who get their face ripped apart by Ret pallys wont agree, but from a PVE perspective we're still well below equally geared players of other classes. I consider myself a decent Ret pally and although I'm up to ~2500 dps on Brutallus I'm still finishing 8th in damage done. They may have raised our DPS but they also raised that of everyone else. Rogues are now doing ~3700-4000 and that's pretty damn hard to compete with. That's NOT keeping to the intention Blizzard had of trying to even out the damage when gear and skill are roughly equal.

I don't care what nerfs they take to PVP, and most of the concerns I fully understand... I rarely PVP but when I do it's BG's and I was ripping faces open before the 3.0 patch anyway... but damn, don't nerf us so much based on PVP that we can't keep up in PVE. >

[Iamhewhoismighty]

I consider myself a decent Ret pally and although I'm up to ~2500 dps on Brutallus I'm still finishing 8th in damage done. They may have raised our DPS but they also raised that of everyone else. Rogues are now doing ~3700-4000 and that's pretty damn hard to compete with. That's NOT keeping to the intention Blizzard had of trying to even out the damage when gear and skill are roughly equal.

Well, anyone could just pull the old excuse out of their pocket "It will all balance out at 80."

[Scipii12]

Agreed on other class balance (preferably upgrading our class to meet theirs than a global nerf).

I don't see Ret as a watered down Arms though. SoL healing isn't bad, JotW is sick, and their damage has only gone up (especially burst in PvP). I don't know how they fair raid-buffed as it's not my game plan.

For a "hybrid" I guarantee you that when specced properly the Paladin class does a better job as a DPS tool than a healer. Even deep ret can heal almost as well (if not better with SoL crits) than a Healadin (ex: my member name, haha).

This is false to some extent. Ret can heal comparatively in bursts, but sustained healing is where they fall. Yes I know they have unlimited mana in essence, but if you had to throw out holy lights to keep someone up, you would expend that mana return from JotW in 2.5 holy lights. At best you could keep up the kind of healing necessary for a 1 minute. In all of this though, their DPS is limited to what you are judging for. Who would use a ret pally to heal when they could just bring another healer?

[Isollae]

Silverveign...im thinking you may not be aware...that Kalgan is GC's boss.

and http://www.wowwiki.com/Tom_Chilton has never been nice to paladins.

in fact. id go so far as to say that longwriter is right, that Kalgan is an ass. he is generealy considered to be at the heart of everything people didnt like about Ultima, and he is the single least liked member of the blizzard dev team.

now that said...anyone whos in a spot like that is going to have lots of hate mail. goes with the territory. And he does have a tough job. he is after all in charge of balance. and that is a scary job.

but i dont think he gets any love mail, and thats important.

Tommy is also at the heart of the new 'dual spec' thing...which is really a continuation of the 'dual role' thing from the start of BC. as a paladin.....i cringed then, and i cringe now.

fortunately this new system wont be a total disaster. its part of a goal to get people playing with friends as opposed to playing with whoever is 'good'

of course this will have the result of enforcing the creation of cliques to a degree much greater then they are now.


last week i was pushing 2700 dps on terron.....i forgot my mightstone in my bank and i was late for the ony buff. my dps is fine. and i do think that non hybrids should be at the top of the charts (all things being equal)

the problem that is inerrant to this situation is that there are (naturally) a TON of people who REFUSE to tank or heal. they brag about the damage they do and are the loudest to mock you because of the system that is in effect. but in the end they are talentless hacks.


so heres my opinion (and an end to my ramble) this is all just a symptom. the real problem is that noone at blizzard has a background in how social groups function. and when you have (as advertised) 10 million people in this microcosm (Los Angeles is what? 8-9 million) you are ultimately creating many of your own problems.

so Blizzard. if any of you are actually reading this.....it is in your best interest to create an opening for a resoucrse who is able to restructure the manner in which you deal with peoples in large groups. You are social engineering and you have the wrong kind of geeks and nerds for that.

and no. i am not qualified. not even close.

[Alexis]

Eh. You guys will be fine at 80. Don't worry, it should be better than your BC days.

[Zarwyn]

I am well aware who Kalgan is, I was a UO beta tester and played up to AoS. I am also well aware that Kalgan is GC's boss.

That being said my comments should have been directed at the entirety of the dev team and not just GC. However, GC has taken upon the task of being the dev team spokesman even if he never really set out to do this task. It is because of that my ire was directed at the person who opened their mouth. (which was GC)

I hope you guys will be alright, I really do. I was looking forward to retadin tearing up the epeen meters and rivaling me. I don't see that happening now, and with the intended changes to your talents your scalability is going in the toilet. When I did my first round of number I did not notice, but when I saw the numbers on the paladin beta forums the DPS gained was higher than mine. At first I thought it was just because two different guys were doing different assumptions but actually we were pretty much the same. The difference is I based my calcs on the stats of a better geared ret pally instead of an entry level retadin at 80. As your crit gets higher your damage lost slowly over-takes the damage you gained from a flat increase.

I don't claim to be the smartest guy, but if I were staring down these changes I would be concerned. With your only scalability in your gear, then finding out the changes being made to your dps do not scale well with gear. Well that's a bit messed up.

Guess we are fucked and the devs dont give a shit. Its the story of my WoW playing time. Gotta love shitty devs. They need to fix this shit. iam sorta sick of waiting.

[Zealic]

It's wierd i think, that everybody complains about Devs.. It's a job, and seems that they are few.. They can't be everywhere, and i think they're doing a brilliant job Maybe it's just me though

[Hawkmight]

To say that Ret pallys have only "trivial healing utility" is a bit of a joke. Have you checked BG and Arena stats lately? Ret pallys heal about 50% of what holy pallys heal by just dps'ing. I've stated this before and people usually think I'm exaggerating, but look at the stats. Bottom line: even though they specialize in dps, they heal for huge amounts without having to do direct healing spells.

I'm pretty happy with Ret. Blizzard did what they needed to do so Ret pallys can compete with any other dps class. The "nerfs" which are really only minor tweaks are not changing that.

You do understand that A: this will be nerfed before the 13th? B: the game is now balanced around 80. C. and that we are the only spec atm balanced around content that no longer has any importance?

[LoLHoly]

This is false to some extent. Ret can heal comparatively in bursts, but sustained healing is where they fall. Yes I know they have unlimited mana in essence, but if you had to throw out holy lights to keep someone up, you would expend that mana return from JotW in 2.5 holy lights. At best you could keep up the kind of healing necessary for a 1 minute. In all of this though, their DPS is limited to what you are judging for. Who would use a ret pally to heal when they could just bring another healer?

So get some healing gear and swap it out?

Point is if you want to do "sustained healing" your deep ret build is NO worse than most of the DEEP holy builds in 95% of the content. For fights that require beacon its different but some raid healers go deep ret for SoL and /rude the rest of the holy tree (including holy shock).

For a Ret in attk power gear w/ a 2hander not being able to heal competitively....GOOD! Throwing 3 holy lights will give you back anywhere 15k+ hps (a TON more at max rank with crits due to the HoT). A Glyphed LoH and your back in action every 20 minutes with more healing.

Point is when you can put on some healing gear and heal for 5-mans w/o respeccing thats a great thing. For PvP or Ret gear you can still stop DPS'ing to save a clothie that the main healer isn't able to (because the MT is taking hits like a punching bag). A good Ret can CC most mobs with Repentance, bubble a teamate or throw a heal...thats a whole lot of versatility while still pushing good numbers. This versatility should be worth at least 20% a damage deficit compared to a rogue/mage in the high-end game, however, Blizz says they don't even want that much of a gap. Lucky us.

Why would they bring a Ret healer instead of a true-blooded healer class? Maybe they like playing with the Ret and know he won't let them wipe...while some 13 year old newb Resto Shamman is too busy shooting lightning bolts. *shrug*

You CAN dig your way out of prison with a metal spoon. It's sure not as good as a shovel and pick but 100 times better than using your fingers.

[Thnika]

ret will be just fine.

Even with the nerfs (if you even want to call them nerfs, id say more like fixes) ret pallys will be competing with other dps classes in dps while providing very good raid utility as well.

Blizzard said it themselves that this change will nerf pvp burst dmg but keep the paladins pve dps at around the same level due to spreading their dmg out a bit more.

Imo if i was a paladin i would be glad for the change, since now you will be able to start dps earlier without critting like a mofo and pulling agg.

[Skippert]

Thnika and some others: thank you. Finally some ppl that can relativate a bit instead of QQ like a depressed teenager about the slightest possible nerf.