This is proof that JoTW nerf will hit us hard in PvP - wtb skills.

[Disturbed]

For pvp it`s bit same as it is for feral druids. I expect some paladins to possibly use int gems on pvp gear even it might sound bit funny atm.

In pve when you calculate all the buffs raid offers you should be able to keep your dps up for 10ish minutes.

feral druids? what? we're talking about mana so idk what youre getting at. anyway feral have NO mana issues now that they have full mana bars with imp lotp. but yea feral has never been a very good arena pick. thats another topic though.

[Nightik]

You are missing some points, if you are in raid. Raids in WotlK are now filled with raid-wide buffs that regain your mana (totems, SP buff etc) so you will get more mana through the fight. In 5man normal instances fight wont take 10 minutes, it will be as usual few minutes and again, you can have in your group some class that regain your mana or simply you will use mana pot.

As somebody stated here, you are not the only one class that consumes mana and you are not so special atm that every forum has to be filled with crap about paladin all day long. Have you ever played elemental shaman? If not then do so and you will see how your mana is getting empty. Not to mention other classes. It is not all about "look i cant hold 20 minuts fight because i will go oom!".

if you throw FoL in the middle of the fight every 8 sec, you will run oom in roughly 1 min 30 sec.

If your divine plea got dispelled in mid-fight, that's gonna hurt you as well. If you get mana burned... oh shit, you are done.

In arena or battleground there is situation different. All classes again that uses mana can be mana drained so thats not just your problem. Again imagine for example elemental shaman, how he will be doing ANY damage if he gets mana burned? How he will get mana back? At least in your case you still can autohit your target.

Few days ago i was dueling some ret paladin in wellfare epic aka some blue gear, some for honor and ofc what he could get s4 gloves and some s3 stuff. I have resto shaman in t6 and yes, i know i have in this case no resilience but it is not the point of this story. We had duel for about 3 minutes and i was just healing myself. Not to mention he was doing HUGE damage that i was constantly around 70% even i was doing everything i could (grounding totem, healing stream totem, Riptide up, spamming LHW) and guess what. After this 3 minutes fight i had around 25% of my mana and that glorious paladin had 85-90% of mana. So i had to use 75% of my mana against his +- 15% mana to actually heal his damage done to me. Now tell me - is there everything right now?

You need to adapt and not just cry around huging everyone and making threads about how sucky you are and BC era is back. And if you cant understand this, then probably you should take a break, open a window and just look around and think about how to adapt and change your play style instead of "zomg nooo, look tests i cant 3 shot ppl now! i will go oom in 2 min as other classes do!!! noooo".

[Vermy]

/sigh theorycraft killed WoW

[Baever]

So what you are basically saying, that....... you CONSUME mana during a fight, but only when you do more than just dps?

Let's see, I see mages consuming mana during dpsing, same for warlocks, same for moonkins, same for ele and enh. shams, actually the same for all other dps-mana classes. Also true for heal classes and even the tank classes, which use mana, rage or runes and runic power during a fight.

Hmmmm, maybe ......... just MAYBE it was the ret-palas going out of every fight with a full mana bar the ones were something was wrong?

God forbid the paladin class be able to heal AND damage while completely disregarding their mana pool.

[yiptastic]

MMage got my point clear.

the problem in PvP is:
1) we can be kited
2) divine plea gives a good chunk of mana back, but 15 sec and being dispellable means it will rarely stay full duration, (unless you are fighting retarded teams)
3) we can be mana burned while being kited.
4) once we are oom, dirt dry, we will stay at the bottom because we can't judge. because judgement can't compensate the basic dps rotation, we can't effectively burst our target.
5) our class evolves around burst. no burst = no kill. no kill = you die. you die = you lose.
6) our mana will be horribly low compare to other mana using classes. So, we have less buffer room to deal with mana drain. It doesn't take a lot of cast to dry us up.

[Karpalo]

feral druids? what? we're talking about mana so idk what youre getting at. anyway feral have NO mana issues now that they have full mana bars with imp lotp. but yea feral has never been a very good arena pick. thats another topic though.

At least some time ago they whined that they go oom if they want to shift out of snares constantly...
Not sure what`s the situation now.

[Baever]

you guys who arent listening to the OP, he is talking about pvp, and yes there is a huge concern. blizz could have just nerfed the damage and hoW to 20% and it would make the adjustment. THE END.

jotw nerf is a killer. it needed to be lowered but not to the point where we get a crappy pve rotation and lol pvp oom drained. other melee dont have rage/energy starvation. they cant get rage/energy dispelled. pallies get kited and burned. its a total joke. pallies are supposed to heal and cleanse when they get kited because they cant melee, but with being oom they cant do either. that makes it a dead class for arena period. plus the fact that so many of the skills like consecrate cost so much mana you will never see them used even in a pve rotation.

quit talking about base mana. fact is ret doesnt get int gear. ret shouldnt be gemming int. ret shouldnt be auto attacking because they are starved for mana, or even worse they cant auto attack cause theyre kited. whats the fun in auto attack in pve? its death in pvp. rogue and warrior can spam their skills and they have better pvp abilities as well as much better pve dps even before this pally nerf, and warriors are hybrid and they get dps buffed... blizz needs to give jotw another pass.

A mana bar is a mana bar, that will never change.

[Nightik]

MMage got my point clear.

the problem in PvP is:
1) we can be kited
2) divine plea gives a good chunk of mana back, but 15 sec and being dispellable means it will rarely stay full duration, (unless you are fighting retarded teams)
3) we can be mana burned while being kited.
4) once we are oom, dirt dry, we will stay at the bottom because we can't judge. because judgement can't compensate the basic dps rotation, we can't effectively burst our target.
5) our class evolves around burst. no burst = no kill. no kill = you die. you die = you lose.
6) our mana will be horribly low compare to other mana using classes. So, we have less buffer room to deal with mana drain. It doesn't take a lot of cast to dry us up.

1) BoF
2) other classes have the same problems
3) like other classes
4) like other mana based classes
5) adapt, elemental shaman is about burst as well
6) you cant really say that until lvl 80 and after some fights

[yiptastic]

You are missing some points, if you are in raid. Raids in WotlK are now filled with raid-wide buffs that regain your mana (totems, SP buff etc) so you will get more mana through the fight. In 5man normal instances fight wont take 10 minutes, it will be as usual few minutes and again, you can have in your group some class that regain your mana or simply you will use mana pot.

As somebody stated here, you are not the only one class that consumes mana and you are not so special atm that every forum has to be filled with crap about paladin all day long. Have you ever played elemental shaman? If not then do so and you will see how your mana is getting empty. Not to mention other classes. It is not all about "look i cant hold 20 minuts fight because i will go oom!".

In arena or battleground there is situation different. All classes again that uses mana can be mana drained so thats not just your problem. Again imagine for example elemental shaman, how he will be doing ANY damage if he gets mana burned? How he will get mana back? At least in your case you still can autohit your target.

Few days ago i was dueling some ret paladin in wellfare epic aka some blue gear, some for honor and ofc what he could get s4 gloves and some s3 stuff. I have resto shaman in t6 and yes, i know i have in this case no resilience but it is not the point of this story. We had duel for about 3 minutes and i was just healing myself. Not to mention he was doing HUGE damage that i was constantly around 70% even i was doing everything i could (grounding totem, healing stream totem, Riptide up, spamming LHW) and guess what. After this 3 minutes fight i had around 25% of my mana and that glorious paladin had 85-90% of mana. So i had to use 75% of my mana against his +- 15% mana to actually heal his damage done to me. Now tell me - is there everything right now?

You need to adapt and not just cry around huging everyone and making threads about how sucky you are and BC era is back. And if you cant understand this, then probably you should take a break, open a window and just look around and think about how to adapt and change your play style instead of "zomg nooo, look tests i cant 3 shot ppl now! i will go oom in 2 min as other classes do!!! noooo".

read the title. I'm talking about PvP. my math already proved that we can manage the most basic dps rotation with an underestimated math gain (excluding all buffs). So PvE is fine.

PvP is the problem.

once you are stunlocked, a viper sting and mana burn will put you out of game for a long time. arcane shot deals magical dmg + removes your bloody buffs, and priests can dispel you. So divine plea is useless. (better than nothing but still pretty damn useless in PvP)

[Karpalo]

Arcane shot won`t dispell now tho hunters got dispell on tranq shot which is on longer cd tho. About the dispell would you say evocation is useless cause it needs to be chanelled and can be interrupted? For every skill for every class there is pretty much a counter on some other class yet that doesn`t make those useless.

[Itsagameguys]

I'm sorry, but good Retribution paladins are possibly the hardest melee class in the game to kite.

Ranged Stuns/Incapacitates. Ranged Judgements. Hand of Freedom. Magic dispel AND poison dispel which covers every snare except physical snares and CoEx and covers every single root outside of certain procs. Divine shield is 12 seconds of snare, root, CC immunity. And 15% run speed increase.

Yeah you don't have a snare yourself, but that's why this is an MMORPG and not a single player game. Find a teammate who compliments your shortcomings and then you have no weakness.

Warriors and Enhancement Shaman are in a FAR, FAR worse shape that Ret. Ret is even superior to Mutilate rogues when it comes to mobility and root/snare breaks.

[ShinKosh]

6) you cant really say that until lvl 80 and after some fights

Honestly, what is there to know about lvl80 that we dont already know?

No DPS Plate has Int on it, Ret Paladin mana pool will be baseline unless you start stealing mail gear.

Ench Shammies are the most similar class to Ret, buff heavy and a walking RNG. They look for crits and they look for random hits they cant control. Their lvl80 gear also has Int meaning when they are mana burned it hurts but isnt crippling. A Priest hits at lvl80 for 1478 to 1562 mana from the tool tip, a Rets mana bar will be sitting around the 4k mark.

Assuming you dont attack at all the priest will take 9 seconds to destroy a Rets mana pool. If you want to though in attacks it will happen faster cause after one full rotation you are already down a chunk.

The JotW nerf wont hit up hard in PvP, it will cripple us.

[Ghrim]

ur a complete and utter idiot.

unlike the rest of those classes, paladins have no int on thier gear whatsoever.
mages got tons of int on all thier gear, mana gems and a way to go invisible and drink/eat.
warlocks can(and do) mana drain or life drain and lifetap and they also have tons of mana on thier gear.
shamans got water shield and active mana regening abilities, and both thier DPS specs have alot of int on thier gear.

paladins using PALADIN gear have 0 int and relay completely on JotW for mana(divine plea is a joke wiht our mana pool and is disspellable), this was all fine when we could regen a decent amount of mana which inturn allowed us to use our abilities even when not dpsing(offhealing is always nice and in arena u spam cleanse so much its not even funny).

as it stands now paladins are 100% useless in arena, u go oom fast, u do mediocre burst(much less than moonkin, rogue or mage), u do mediocre sustained DPS(less than pretty much any other class due to the retarded design of the ret paladin(melee class with 0 snares and no way to get back to an opponent), u have no decent interrupts and u r completely kiteable(BoF is dispellable, has a long cooldown and more often than not u wont even get to use it on urself).

I could just qoute your first sentence to perfectly describe you.

Why the hell are all rets whining like theres no tomorrow? Someone brought this up before: Ever played a Feral in PvP? Sure, they don't need mana for their damage directly, but they go oom WAY faster when they start to heal than a ret, and shapeshifting even when talented costs a lot mana. Sure you can say they don't need to shapeshift but then again, a paladin don't need to use a bubble or BoF or heal, right? The mana gain from Lotp is the ONLY thing that helps ferals not go oom after 5 mins of fight.

Actually having played a pala in beta all the QQ is WAY over the top. Sure it is a bigger nerf than some expected (won't talk about those always saying ret is fine.....lol.....), but after all it is COMPLETELY justified. Not only the burst damage was one of the things where rets were op. They actually had infinite mana, no matter if in pve or pvp. Now they consume mana..... wow....... Sure, a shaman has water shield..... which can not be dispelled, right? Same with shamanistic rage. It might sound hard and i at least try to not use the phrase too often, but there are just to many people running around with floods of tears coming out their eyes just because their class is no longer op and more in line with the other 9 (don't talking about perfect balance as such thing only exists if there is just one class)....Learn to play.... as hard as it sounds..... get used to the situation or start playing another class which you think is op and easy enough for you.

Everyone said ferals are a no go in pvp, still i managed to get to 2.1k, so what? After the nerf it won't be any longer ret+x dominating 2s but there will be some rets which actually know how to play their class and those will still own.

[Atenas]

I think is too much QQ. Yeah, Divine Plea can be purged/dispelled/stolen, but also can other skills like Innervate. Evocation can be interrupted. The shadow fiend can be killed and cc'd. Life tap cannot be interrupted, but well, if the lock is losing health, better for everybody, take your chance to kill it. We still have other tools to get mana back (the judgement, the BoW - I use it when I get oom/burned and I get enough mana to judge and get more mana back- the seal, being healed also gives you mana). The thing is, all the big mana return skills can be countered one way or another, you just have to be smart and KNOW when to use it. Skilled arena players know this.

You're overreacting about this. Yes, we will get mana burned and then unable to do any kind of dps, but that's how the cookie crumbles. Mana is our weakness in that case like any other mana user. We just have smaller mana pools, but we did before anyways. Just know when to use your cooldowns and the tools you have to get mana back. Be smart. I guess that's too much to ask for a game like this.

[yiptastic]

1) BoF
2) other classes have the same problems
3) like other classes
4) like other mana based classes
5) adapt, elemental shaman is about burst as well
6) you cant really say that until lvl 80 and after some fights

1) arcane shot, dispel, spell steal, purge
2) you are right for the most part except, shamanistic rage is physical. get the point? I'm comparing with enh shammy because they are functionally closest to us.
3) read my 3rd point clearly plz. it's while being kited. It's not easy to kite a shaman. shamans can deal range spell interrupt to prevent manaburn or mana drain every 6 sec. They aren't completely helpless to mana draining.
4) mage can use mana gems, shammy uses shamanistic rage, locks... drain, hunters, aspect of the viper as always, priests, mana beasts... (btw, those I've listed can't be dispelled for only one except, mage's evocation.) 4th isn't the biggest problem however, it's really the combination of disapellable divine plea and high vulnerability to mana burn/drain that stops us.
5) this I agree with you.
6) yes I can for one simple fact: the word "high" or "low" are comparative words. Basically say, I was already comparing with other mana users.

[Nightik]

read the title. I'm talking about PvP. my math already proved that we can manage the most basic dps rotation with an underestimated math gain (excluding all buffs). So PvE is fine.

PvP is the problem.

once you are stunlocked, a viper sting and mana burn will put you out of game for a long time. arcane shot deals magical dmg + removes your bloody buffs, and priests can dispel you. So divine plea is useless. (better than nothing but still pretty damn useless in PvP)

Yes i fully understand your point. But it is not just paladins problem. Every class that requires mana can get mana burned. You need to adapt your play style, play with some fine setups that can cover your weekness, in pvp, especialy arena you cant count just on yourself and think you can hold everything just on your own and this and that if happenes you are fucked up and then state the game is not fair and unbalanced for you.

All classes are feared about being mana burned or simply you wont be able to kill someone. As elemental shaman you are in arena after while absolutly oom and cant do anything at all and do you see any shamans here whining about it? Mages, boomkins, everybody!

Kill a priest first, go out of los, anything that can help you and as other classes do. You really need to give up on this "paladin problem" and face it as other classes do.

[yiptastic]

Yes i fully understand your point. But it is not just paladins problem. Every class that requires mana can get mana burned. You need to adapt your play style, play with some fine setups that can cover your weekness, in pvp, especialy arena you cant count just on yourself and think you can hold everything just on your own and this and that if happenes you are fucked up and then state the game is not fair and unbalanced for you.

All classes are feared about being mana burned or simply you wont be able to kill someone. As elemental shaman you are in arena after while absolutly oom and cant do anything at all and do you see any shamans here whining about it? Mages, boomkins, everybody!


Kill a priest first, go out of los, anything that can help you and as other classes do. You really need to give up on this "paladin problem" and face it as other classes do.

more pewpew, less QQ. Right?

yeah I get the point. I should just start bitching on mana burn/drain because paladins might still get the better straw compare to others. like we get mana back through heals? No one actually mentioned it...

yes, you are right. it's about play style now. actually no, it's about playing skills.

[Paladonious!!]

So what you are basically saying, that....... you CONSUME mana during a fight, but only when you do more than just dps?

Let's see, I see mages consuming mana during dpsing, same for warlocks, same for moonkins, same for ele and enh. shams, actually the same for all other dps-mana classes. Also true for heal classes and even the tank classes, which use mana, rage or runes and runic power during a fight.

Hmmmm, maybe ......... just MAYBE it was the ret-palas going out of every fight with a full mana bar the ones were something was wrong?

Hmm all those classes have intellect on their gear, more than doubling our mana.

[Karpalo]

Let`s say you would play 2`s as a paladin/rogue. There is 0 chance that you will get manaburned if you focus your dps no matter to* who. Double dps comps never ever get manaburned cause your enemy don`t have the luxury we call time. Paladin went from super defensive to super offensive and odds are you won`t get burned if you are bringing the pain.

[Nightik]

1) arcane shot, dispel, spell steal, purge
2) you are right for the most part except, shamanistic rage is physical. get the point? I'm comparing with enh shammy because they are functionally closest to us.
3) read my 3rd point clearly plz. it's while being kited. It's not easy to kite a shaman. shamans can deal range spell interrupt to prevent manaburn or mana drain every 6 sec. They aren't completely helpless to mana draining.
4) mage can use mana gems, shammy uses shamanistic rage, locks... drain, hunters, aspect of the viper as always, priests, mana beasts... (btw, those I've listed can't be dispelled for only one except, mage's evocation.) 4th isn't the biggest problem however, it's really the combination of disapellable divine plea and high vulnerability to mana burn/drain that stops us.
5) this I agree with you.
6) yes I can for one simple fact: the word "high" or "low" are comparative words. Basically say, I was already comparing with other mana users.

Shamans, especialy enhancement ones, are really still vulnerable to being kited. Once someone start you kiting you are helpless, only thing that can help you from not being kited are your wolves (3min cd) and trinket (2min cd) and thats all. If you use all of those thing you are sitting duck, trust me. Not to mention to get any mana from shamanistic rage, you need to be in melee range and do nice about of hitts to actually get any mana that worth of mentioning + you have just 15 secound for it. And since mostly you are forced to use this while you are kited, or frost bited, etc to reduce incoming damage so then most of the times you are unable to get mana at al from this ability.

And being mana burned as enhancement shaman is easy. Since you have to use shocks in your dps rotation and if priest is not your target you cant ES him and interrupt. Yes grouding totem once a while, but helpless against caster teams since it can absorb any spell and easily mana burn can be missed.