Viva La Retribution!

[Ufalah]

wow, for once someone remained calm and dignified. No qq`ing at the slightest sign of a `nerf`? this is one small step for paladins, and one giant leap for a constructive forum.

If you aren't outraged, as a paladin, at TWO across-the-board nerfs to your class in less than two weeks than you are a very special person. Blizzard has handled the paladin situation with regards to WotLK horribly and also with regards to its entire existence.

Why release a patch that you KNOW is unbalanced only to have to come and cut the legs out of every Paladin player not once, but twice?

I completely agree the 3.0.2 ret paladins were OP. Nerfs were needed. But a hotfix followed by a full-blown patch aimed directly at paladins while other classes/specs are also OP is too much a blow to take sitting down.

Did you see their solution for the god-awfully powerful arcane mage? They want to BUFF their other damage spells so mages don't just spam their retardedly OP 51pt arcane talent. Man, why didn't they just buff CS so we didn't use DS as often?!?! (/sarcasm)

Not to mention every single spec of droods is pretty much invincible. (exaggeration, but srsly, so god-damn annoyingly unkillable).

Perhaps Paladins haven't been reduced to "lolret" again, but they certainly will not be performing at levels similar to other classes @ level 80. GG Blizz.

Luckily Ghostcrawler PROMISED us that if we are underperforming that we will be buffed... oh wait, he also PROMISED us that ret PvE DPS was fine and that he/they (the devs) were merely concerned with the "bursty" nature of a burst class... :

[Trotil]

PvE ... atm with my pally MH BT geared i do around 1800 dps (i talk here about BT raid ) dps and we are a hibrid class . A bomkin druid from my guild with equivalent gear dose around 1900 dps and they are a hibrid class too and just pally are nerfed in dps GJ blizz ... And for all who didn`t raid to see that u must know : atm best dps class in PvE is an arms warrior (fury spec is way lower in dps) GJ again blizz ...
So my point here is cose we are atm viable in PvE and i admit JOTW was OP and need to be fixed and our dmg a bit to high ... but this nerf sounds like i will go from 1800 dps to 1400 that is way to lower acording to rest of clases at same gear ...

Let talk about PvP a bit ... Cose paladins don`t have an reduce haling ability our only chance to kill somebody in arena is our burst DMG ( pls don`t talk about BG where is full of nubs ... and they just spam BG chat with : omg u see 4 pally are in top OMG , they are so OP .... ) ... and pls talk aboy fight at same gear like S4 vs S4 not a green geared player vs a S2 + geared pala .... I have S3 S4 combo gear on my retri pala and i tell u i can`t 1 shoot a warrior like i saw in many topics talking ... I admit our burst is atm a bit to high but lowering so much will go back with retri in lolret Era ... we was OP but this nerf is way to big for us ...

And talking about QQ in final ... who was QQ till now after realese of new PACH ? Paladins ? oh no , ofc not they was other classes and u all come back now to us and tell us about QQ ? at least be fair play and try to make this game more enjoybel ...

And tbh not only paladins need to be fixed atm ... Mages burst in PvP is way to high , I play 2 v 2 now with a disc priest and we meet a 2 mages combo ... So pls tell me now how is possibel to die at 400+ resi and 12.5 K hp in 2 sec ? If u don`t belive that i will post movie with that arena mach here to see how to mages put end to that game in less than 10 sec from start of fight ... ( and i talk here about fight at 2000+ rating )

First of all Blizz need to take a look at all clases to see how works not only to paladins just cose of mass overcry about we are OP ... and like many players said talents are tuned for lvl 80 so now at 70 is almost irelevant to talk about a class is OP or not ... but if u like i gived to u few examples to see we are not only OP class atm

[Trotil]

sorry i fogot to tell a thing ... an elemental shammy is down with dps now , a top 3 dps in MH BT raids player now is down to 10 -12 GJ again blizz pls rewiev elemental shammy talent tree and bring them back where they was i meen in top 5 at least

[R0my312]

Well, yes, this is a large nerf for the paladin, but it's not a class-breaker. The nerf was needed, and even though it was handled poorly by blizzard, it was handled never-the-less. 1.8k dps in BT will NOT be decreased to 1.4k dps with this patch, and that is due to the major gear difference between me, and the poster. Ret paladins on the PTR as well as Beta have shown that with this patch, their dps scales nicely with the quality of gear. Also, dont rule the the chance that the other classes will get nerfed..i recently read a poll about which class will most likely be nerfed next, and mages/boomkins are at the top of the list. Ret is heading where it needs to go, and even though the road is bumpy, we can see over the horizon, and it's looking good.

Sum of Points:
-Well geared paladins will NOT experiance such a dramatic dps loss as i did (and i still do good dps)
-Dont look at paladins place in WoW right now and assume it will stay like that, our changes were just the first of many that will be done to the other classes in the game as well, so we'll just have to wait and see how that turns out, but for the most part, we're where we need to be.

[Strykewrath]

Nice not to see another pally QQ thread.

I will still be playing Ret in the future, as I was before and after the patch, as it is, in my opinion, a fun spec, and will still be viable in the future.

[octoberfox]

THANK YOU OP

I think its ridiculous the outrage paladins are crying out about for changes a large majority of them won't even test, they'll only ride the zerg wave of outrage from other ill informed paladins. The spec is fine and is now merely balanced. Paladin's need to chill out and not throw a hissy fit because they can't two shot in pvp anymore. OP is one of the paladins willing to test the changes rather than accepting third hand accounts for absolute truth with no possibility of refutation or open mindedness. Holy still needs a bit of work, but ret is fine

[Lilth]

Simply reading the recent nerf upset me beyond all beliefs originally, as i'm sure it pissed off every other pally player.
I have been playing a ret paladin since WoW came out, and it is by far my favorite class spec, which is why once i saw these nerfs i HAD to make sure my class would survive, and so i jumped onto the trusty PTR too check out the changes.

Ret Pve Dmg: Is fine. I am currently in t4/t5 gear, and even though my dps WAS nerfed from 1.4k down to 1.1k...well..i'm STILL doing 1.1k dps. I understand Paladins are NOT a PURE dps class, we are hybrids, and i strongly believe that hybrids should NOT be top of the damage trees, and so 1.1k dps is actually (in my opinion) just about where we ought to be.

Ret PvP Dmg: So i can't just dish out 3k crits like it's nobodies bussiness anymore...but i can still dish out 2.5k's xD .

Ret Mana Regen. (JotW) : Even though this seemed like the most substantial nerf to ret, in reality it is not broken at all, and our mana regen is fine. There is a catch however, we have to remove concecration from our dmg rotation entirely. Yes, yes, i know it sounds harsh, and "omg bro, that like, kills our deeps yo!"...well not really, without it i'm still doing over 1.1k (which is fine, again).
The new talent that puts up a DoT on the enemy whenever we crit with DStorm and Judgments also makes up for Concecration ENTIRELY! Concecration ticks for about 220, with 700-ish spell power (in my current gear), but this new DoT can tick for over 300!
Even though our dps WAS nerfed through seal dmg reduction, concecration is STILL there..just in another form (a talented form.)
..But i digress, and now back to mana regen.
Even though we cant stop dpsing, heal the entire raid for full, then continue like w/e, we can still maintain our damage rotation without going oom! Yes, i tried this, yes, it worked, in fact i did it for about 10 whole minutes without going oom. The only times i came near to going oom was when i would stop dpsing to heal, which i think is fair, and...normal really.

AND SO! Even though we got nerfed TO THE GROUND BABY! we are still very viable and raid-spot worthy, and not broken what-so-ever.

*I DID DO ALL OF THESE TESTS MYSELF ON THE PTR. THESE FACTS ARE ALL BASED OFF OF MY CHARACTER WITH HIS CURRENT GEAR (which isnt too great, so it's should be fairly universal for all ret pallies).


VIVA LA RETRIBUTION!

What you neglected to mention was in pvp we are no longer as viable as we were. Just in arenas alone... We can officially be treated as we were b4. Ooming us will be just as easy. That wouldnt be so bad if the mana we had counted in massive burst. However that was cut so as to compensate for the lack of target time burst they should have atleast gave us sustainability in mana. If we arent going to kill anything hella fast we need to be able to go on for a long time. They need to make up thier minds and make us a burst or a survival class. At the moment we have none with the nerfs. See i dont mind doing lower dmg if im going to be doing it for a longer period of time. Howevre mana drains will shaft us in arena and we will go back to lol ret.

I realize alot of you want to have high dps on boss fights but when it comes down to it it really doesnt matter if you are number 1 so long as you are doing the best for the specific class you play. The logic is pple who provide the raid with no utility only have dps to offer so they should be higher on the meter. So if you offer things that help an antire raid that already gives the raid a reason to bring you. Lets say a pally who offers raid utility out dps's a rogue who really doesnt do much other than stab stuff. Well, why bring the rogue when you can bring another pally?

Dont get me wrong i love my pally and i plan to remain loyal to it. But i understand the reason why others qq about us. I just wish others were as objective about us. What they dont realize is we need one or the other burst or longevity. We dont have any healing debuffs and we just had our dmg and mana nerfed. This brings us back to the "healers can tank us" state. This is not a good place to be and i wish more pple would realize the harm they are doing us by not thinking about the qq they spam.

Imagine you and a friend loved playing together but you found that the combo didnt work b.c of class mechanics. This would hurt ur friend b.c if you were the only one that would play with him he would feel like he was being carried and you may not get a good rating due to limitations. Also others dont want a loladin then that person is going to have a hard time in arena. Now if that person was viable lets say for example like a warlock or druid as we have seen in past seasons. Well then everyone would want to play with him. Good thing he is ur friend b.c now you can do well. Im pretty sure if you guys thought of pallies as people and not just enemies you would be more considerate of not nerfing us too badly.

I always say if you have a problem with the way somethign is try and find the root of it, then adress that issue. Was it really that we had too much mana or was it we were blowing you up too fast. I feel the problem was we were blowing you up to fast. Thus in order to correct that nerf our dmg. But seeing as if that was corrected that would leave our only tactic to be the tactic all pallies have been playing... the game of dps while surviving... Be it shockadin holy and even ret tbh. Lolprotpvp :P

You people just need to have a heart at times. You cant all be so selfish b.c you dont know how to handle a play style. Rememebr not every class had issues against us just a hand full. I have seen many good pallies be handled just fine on the beta as on live servers. Player skill cant always be compensated by nerfs, that just makes the game to easy for everyone. Example being a holy pally in arena and you see a warlock with COT/FEAR/SPELL LOCK/DEATHCOIL... You can pretty much just accept the fact that that class has everything they need to beat you and say gg....

[Hawkmight]

correct me if im wrong but wasn't the PRT taken down a few weeks ago?

[Hawkmight]

For those of you unsatisfied with 1.1k dps, allow me to add that my gear is not the best, and this was done WITHOUT wings ;D
Yes, not so ambitious, but this is only because i long ago came to accept that we are a hybrid class, and if we're top of the damage charts, that simply isnt fair to those who rolled pure dps classes.

I assume that in using wings, and being raid buffed, a paladin in my gear could easily hit 1.3k, which again, is fine.
Even though you may wish for more dps, just look at it like this: We out dps the other hybrids, AND provide more utility.
Not too shabby for the previously worst spec in-game IMO.
So cheer up everyone, things are looking up, and if our dps really does need to be higher, i'm sure it will be patched up eventually...we've taken more nerfs in two weeks than any other class, soo it can only really go up from here lol.

VIVA LA RETRIBUTION!

what wings? what utility? 1.3k dps is low for a lvl 80. GC just said are rotation is CS/DS/seal/judge. anything else will make us go oom. when are people going to start looking at these changes affecting us a 80. if you still care about 70's numbers than you are wasting an xpac.

[R0my312]

Again, you're missing the entire point. What you guys..and when i say "you guys", i mean the Ret paladins out there who look at solid numbers, and a whole mess-load of theory crafting, and simply assume THAT IT! Again, like i've been saying this whole time, NO the PTR is NOT down, it's currently up and with the new patch, YES, beta ALSO has the new patch implemented, and quite frankly, you DO NOT go oom if you throw in wings or another move into your rotation. There is a way of properly doing this however, and it is what will seperate the good ret paladins from the bad ones. Those who are able to change rotations, heal, adapt to situations, and be able to maintain mana efficiency will be excellent in raids, and those who cant adapt..well i guess they will simply have to learn how. Ret is an excellent spec, even after two weeks of nerf bombardments some people actually still consider us OP!

I also saw a post earlier on in my thread that ret dps at lvl 80 is 1.3k. That is totally incorrect. I am sorry if i was not clear enough, then that is my fault. Right now at lvl 70, i am hitting 1.1k dps on the ptr, and at lvl 80, the dps is much higher for Ret Paladins. Currently on the Beta, averagely geared ret paladin dps is roughly 1.7k. /Fist Pump.

Hybrid dps ftw! Not the highest, but once those squishy pure Dps classes run dry, we're there to bring 'em back up...you're all welcome in advance ;D

Ret has been great, and currently still is great! You simply have to adapt now, and cant just bind judgment to every key on your keyboard and faceroll anymore. THOSE WHO LEARN HOW TO BE SELF EFFICIENT WILL BE EXCELLENT, AND HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER RAIDERS!

VIVA LA RETRIBUTION!

[Hawkmight]

Again, you're missing the entire point. What you guys..and when i say "you guys", i mean the Ret paladins out there who look at solid numbers, and a whole mess-load of theory crafting, and simply assume THAT IT! Again, like i've been saying this whole time, NO the PTR is NOT down, it's currently up and with the new patch, YES, beta ALSO has the new patch implemented, and quite frankly, you DO NOT go oom if you throw in wings or another move into your rotation. There is a way of properly doing this however, and it is what will seperate the good ret paladins from the bad ones. Those who are able to change rotations, heal, adapt to situations, and be able to maintain mana efficiency will be excellent in raids, and those who cant adapt..well i guess they will simply have to learn how. Ret is an excellent spec, even after two weeks of nerf bombardments some people actually still consider us OP!

I also saw a post earlier on in my thread that ret dps at lvl 80 is 1.3k. That is totally incorrect. I am sorry if i was not clear enough, then that is my fault. Right now at lvl 70, i am hitting 1.1k dps on the ptr, and at lvl 80, the dps is much higher for Ret Paladins. Currently on the Beta, averagely geared ret paladin dps is roughly 1.7k. /Fist Pump.

Hybrid dps ftw! Not the highest, but once those squishy pure Dps classes run dry, we're there to bring 'em back up...you're all welcome in advance ;D

Ret has been great, and currently still is great! You simply have to adapt now, and cant just bind judgment to every key on your keyboard and faceroll anymore. THOSE WHO LEARN HOW TO BE SELF EFFICIENT WILL BE EXCELLENT, AND HIGHLY SOUGHT AFTER RAIDERS!

VIVA LA RETRIBUTION!

did you swap to warrior gear with no intel when you did these test? or at most 1-2 pieces to simulate our mana pool? i was only being sarcasic about wings and GC comment and and DPS at 70 is a joke. i have seen boomkins and hunter pop 8-9k on trash in hyjal. but the mana thing is a real concern. having to drink ever 2-3 pull while lvling past 40 was not fun (not when everyone i knew didn't) (that was 1 mob pulls not aoe) having too much mana is not a challenge but the nerf to already the lowest dps mana pool in the game on top of the nerf to our damage is not a fun place to be. it is also one i wont pay to play anymore. sorry this is not about make me op or i quite this is about a game, you play because its fun. if its not fun you move on. i for one do not want to lvl another class. i didn't enjoy the lvling part of this game the first time. i just hope that in the next 2 weeks blizz can fix it so it a chalenge and fun.

[Elementium]

omg guys.. guess what? I'm a paladin.. and I understand the nerfs :-X


people who think blizz would purposefully destroy a class are morons.

[Thorgramn]

Why the outrage? It's simple. Blizzard has buffed then nerfed Pallys prior to every major patch/expansion. They seem reckless at times. Im prot and still waiting for my 11 point talent. The Judgement nerf "breaks" solo viability for Prot and Holy (something Blizz was fixing). It took weeks of parses and discussion to get another DR buff that they still haven't actually released, but days after one ret nerf they can implement a nerf that effect all 3 specs. How are we supposed to trust them? Blizzard has also said they want to make the game more fun and interactive, then tells ret "stick to 3 buttons and you won't go OOM". I am tired of fighting for evey little thing with this class.

164 days played, not many more to come I suspect. >

[Deca]

When did 1100 DPS become "low"?

since we did 2500 ;D

[Palinchron]

I'd really like to test this "nerf" since I have endgame gear, but I never received a beta key so I have to wait. My thoughts are well yes, there was way too many idiots in greens and blues as ret that were actually competing and destroying other classes even in pve dpswise. Knew the nerf was coming but the Judgements of the Wise nerf I don't know about. One thing I hate as ret is running out of mana so that will really need to be tested.

Thing is there were good ret paladins before the patch and there still will be after. I've receieved most my gear pre-patch so it proves our viability through and through. We just may become a rarity again is all. :P I liked being unique anyways.

[Annaconda]

Lol i yesterday did most damage in kara run :P (6 % more then the number 2 hunter) and my healing done was 3th after the 2 healers. That was a great feeling. Think the reason everbody is outraged is because they are going to lose that feeling of being the best man in the raid :P.
Well there are other great classes to play if you want to be top DPS-er.

BTW i do think some other OP classes also deserve a nerf. :P Is also a great way for bliz to show that paladins aint the only class they bully :P

[Vertue]

Just wondering. I am not sure but are all the nerfs up yet? Cause according to blue will still have more otw. So for all you guys saying all is fine all is fine on PTR and live, they are not yet done, keep that in mind... I am not sure about Betas...

Live (3.0.2 build) -- Judgement of Wise change, Seal and Judgement of Command change.
Beta (3.0.3 build) -- All nerfs already active, but Blood and Martyr un-nerfed.
Next Live patch (to 3.0.3 build) -- Catches Live up to Beta. I can't give you an estimate for 3.0.3 on Live yet, but it will be before Lich King goes live on Nov 13.

So yea you guys in PTR and Live, they are not done yet...

[R0my312]

"We are also hotfixing the beta to return Seal and Judgement of Blood and the Martyr back up to 95% of where the used to be. Live will just never get the nerf to these abilities at all. Hopefully this will compensate PvE Retadins for relying less on more expensive AE abilities that risk putting them out of mana."

SEE! GC doesnt hate us! In fact, he's buffing us being all reasonable thought in PVE xD! Wahoo!

...naturally this was a typo, and Seal of Blood is being buffed to only 35% again,(or maybe to another lower number?..cant really tell atm) but that is still a massive pve dps increase! WHICH MEANS, all of the guys out there who were upset over not being able to do 1.8k dps anymore..well it still seems like that's within the reach of Ret! I personally cannot wait to get back the old dps that the old SoB(lol) aforded us n.n

[Jiai]

It was probably not a typo, "95% of where the used to be" means they do 33% or 34% weapon damage on beta.

[Ikkatsu]

Not to mention every single spec of droods is pretty much invincible. (exaggeration, but srsly, so god-damn annoyingly unkillable).

Are you a retard?

Try playing a Feral Druid now.

Our non-existant mana pool allows us to get barely ONE heal off... and concidering we dont stack ANY spell power, it heals for HALF of a white attack of any melee.

The lack of burst means we cant actually out dps any heals being done, since our output is focused 99% on bleeds (which is useless on anything in an arena situation).