Moonglow Vs. Intensity Vs. Dreamstate (balance)

[Gothmog]

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...scale&n=Daylis

http://wowwebstats.com/gl1ocyvecndoi...144&a=x1ee7683

Go to EJ.

[Mistrblnk]

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...scale&n=Daylis

http://wowwebstats.com/gl1ocyvecndoi...144&a=x1ee7683

Go to EJ.

I'm confused by what you're trying to show with these links.

Just another bad druid who can't do simple math?

800 int 315 spirit
340>315
Dreamstate: ~80mp5
Intensity: ~75mp5

So not only do your own links point to a druid who's specing for LESS mp5, but you also showed that the difference is also almost meaningless. 5mp5, holy fuck, big deal when there's raid member specs out there that give almost 500mp5 in raid utility. Just look at that WWS for yourself. Moonkin form alone gave him more mp5 than (intensity+dreamstate+moonglow+OOC) all together would have.

[Gothmog]

You are completely missing the point arent you?

Ofc we're getting more mana from moonkin form crits, that's not even something we mention because it's selfunderstood you're not going to dps in caster form are you. Same goes for replenishment, blizz assumes we're taking at least 1 replenisher in 10mans and 2-4 in 25mans. It is also assumed we get it's benefit while speccing balance. Obviously, for a grand majority of boomkins, both sources are not enough, hence the ooc/intensity/dreamstate/moonglow points.

You're wasting air talking about either of these mana sources and we're wasting time responding to you.

btw, dunno where you're getting 75mp5 intensity value, you dont offer 1 substantiated basis for that claim. It's also wrong...

[Mistrblnk]

You are completely missing the point arent you?

I think you are. You said some stupid shit and I called you out on it and you're all butthurt now...

Dreamstate > intensity, or at least dreamstate = intensity, and you're flat out wrong about intensity somehow being better by large margins. The only 'normal' balance druids this isn't true for are the ones running around in purely resto gear.

btw, dunno where you're getting 75mp5 intensity value, you dont offer 1 substantiated basis for that claim. It's also wrong...

So that shitty druid you linked, how much mp5 is intensity giving him?

Yeah because Moonkin form often gets left out of balance specs doesn't it... o.O

The point is that it doesn't matter, they're awful talents compared to almost everything out there. People need to first understand where their mana regen is even coming from in a raid situations, in terms of external and internal sources. Dreamstate, moonglow, intensity, which ever you spec into (even if you take them all), they form a small part of the overall mp5 you're looking at getting. This whole topic is trying to decide which talent is better in the margin of +/- MAYBE 5mp5 when you'll have over 1k mp5 in a raid situation.

[Gothmog]

Waste of time.

GL with whatever you're going to do in wow or wherever, seems to me you'll need luck with your upstairs as empty as it is.

[Buxtin]

Man..i sure am confused now.

Anywho, I put 3 in dreamstate and one in intensity for time being..and have had 0 problems with mana regen, and If i did..i COULD use my innervate..but I really havent in 10 or 25 mans

[Deleted]

At the int/spi levels provided in the example, yes Intensity is inferior to Moonglow (and Dreamstate too).
However it's uite obvious that Intensity will scale better than Moonglow with the gear you get and become better rather rapidly, so the question is rather about when that happens. The choice of talents you have to do will depend on the inflexion point and at which point you'll be reaching for it (ie if it's in one week spec for long term, if it'll take you a month spec for short term).
Though actually there's a high chance that you'd need both talents anyway when starting to raid (ie having stats where Moonglow is better) and that when you'll be able to spec out of some mana regen talents your stats will have increased to the point where Moonglow isn't the better one already.

With 5 wotlk epics (from heroics and Nax10), and the rest being level 70 items (and with raid buffs since i don't see the point about talking solo), i have 900 int and 490 spi, which makes Intensity worth 120 mp5 already.
3 more Nax10/heroics items put me at 1080 int / 620 spi, Intensity being ~160 mp5 (that was after my second raid, ~10 days after i started levelling).
So in my case, Intensity equaled Moonglow after 1 Nax and shot past Moonglow after the 2nd (with some heroics in the middle). I don't know why you're saying there's no spirit on the wotlk caster gear, it's not everywhere but i find largely enough (without looking for it to make Intensity very worthwhile).

Regarding Dreamstate, it'll take a bit of gear to make it better than Moonglow, but it's the mecanic difference that drives the comparison : Dreamstate works while you aren't casting whereas Moonglow only provides benefits when you are. Any fight where you have to move at times or are waiting on an even (phase transition and whatever) will favor Dreamstate even if it is slightly below Moonglow whereas for a statical fight they have equal "uptime", so that you'll have to do the comparison on stats.
Currently, Dreamstate is a 120 mp5 talent for me (and i'm still missing rings, bracers, and have a few sub-optimal items i took since they were still enhancements from level 70). Seeing it overcome Moonglow required full wotlk epic gear i guess but will still be attainable without too much trouble if you're serious about PvE.

[Mistrblnk]

Waste of time.

GL with whatever you're going to do in wow or wherever, seems to me you'll need luck with your upstairs as empty as it is.

Aw, gonna run away kiddo? Sure is fun owning dumbfucks like you though when they pop up. ;D

With 5 wotlk epics (from heroics and Nax10), and the rest being level 70 items (and with raid buffs since i don't see the point about talking solo), i have 900 int and 490 spi, which makes Intensity worth 120 mp5 already.
3 more Nax10/heroics items put me at 1080 int / 620 spi

What gear are looking at that's giving you this much spirit though? Sounds like you're throwing in resto stuff honestly

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...scale&n=Daylis

Is pretty much a good rounded out moonkin set endgame, and it doesn't have anything close to that much spirit. 800 int 325 spirit

[Gothmog]

You do realise Daylis is me?

[Deleted]

Yep, i got a number of resto items as nobody wanted them and they were clear upgrades for me. The fact that some of them are actually in the top 5 of best dps items is nothing to sniff at either.

Still, raid buffs are 186 spirit, and i'd rather get the spirit leg enchant than the stam one (+20 spi more). Which leaves us at around 100 spirit to haggle about on the gear which i would say is in the realm of gear choices (or drop luck) to get to the 600 i was talking about. In the meantime he'll probably have higher int as well which will still help Intensity (and Dreamstate).
Actually, rapidly playing with rawr for a "best moonkin set" ends me up with 643 spirit/1260 int (valuing Intensity at 189 mp5).

@medium9 : while it does scale, the numbers you give would surprise me a lot since Moonglow's scaling is a direct function of the number of additional spells cast in the same amount of time. 1.6 would mean basically an average of 60% more spells cast over the fight, which doesn't seem reachable. 40% might be possible on short fights but is already very high and i'd like to see with what stats you would reach that.

Also moonglow is affected negatively by the following effects:
- IS isn't affected -> at the very least -5% to moonglow with 1GCD every 30s, rotations refreshing it more often (which should actually be the case) will see an even worse impact (up to 10% for 1 GCD every 15s).
(haste compensates a buiit, adjust percents as needed, yadayada)
- each time you have to move Moonglow's effect is 0 (unless you happen to have a moonfire that needs to be refreshed at that same moment). Let's say you move around for 10s in a 5 minutes fight, that's already 3% less for Moonglow
- latency/reaction time also factors in negatively (whereas it doesn't affect the other means of regeneration). 0.1s latency which seems reasonnable (maybe even optimistic) results in 3% for SF and 6% for wrath/MF.
Dreamstate is only affected by "lost" mana when you're at full mana (which nobody cares about).
Intensity would be affected by situations where you end up being outside the 5second rule. In such situations moonglow brings 0 while Intensity brings 5s mana regen so even those end up a clear advantage to intensity.

All serious modelisations (ie spreadsheets made available, tested out by many moonkins and whose results seem to mostly agree with reality) i've seen and most of what i can see myself point me to Moonglow being better at low levels of gear and getting outscaled rapidly by Intensity and later by Dreamstate. I'd like to see some full numbers for Moonglow from your side.

[Deleted]

Leave the movement on the side at first i'd say, latency and IS might be already noticeable on the numbers (and it's just a straight % decrease to take it in account afterwards).

[Spawnofmoose]

I top DPS with my current spec, 3/5 10-man t7, some other stray heroic epics and blues with green trinkets...
Its a very competitive fight with the mage in my guild too.

I use this spec and have zero mana issues.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=0xGbuiIscdhVzRuZbxcub


Like someone said earlier, fights that involve heavy AoE or long drawn out fights cause me to go under and need a pot and sometimes innervate however i also have the glyph of innervate so that helps tons too even if i dont use the innervate on myself.

[Wilshire153]

I usually have all of them as balance, don't really see the point

[Deleted]

The point is to get some dps talents when you don't have mana problems anymore, and to know where to take them out first. Doing more dps is good.