Prot paladins and Kings.

[Offhand]

I wonder too. I don't mean to be the voice of reason, but some things are so simple.

That is, speaking as a good Ret who actually has Kings.

I said holy gets kings and prot applies sanc to himself on page one...

I blame the internet.

[belfpala]

I said holy gets kings and prot applies sanc to himself on page one...

I blame the internet.

I made you a Kings. But I eated it.

[Svenskpally]

Ok now we have solved the problem. What was the topic about.

Progressing through 10 man naxx atm and we have two pallys, a holy pally and me. Neither of us have kings, and I'm wondering if I should drop conviction to get Kings? It will be a good raid wide damage boost. What are your thoughts on this?

Oh
So should he drop Conviction for kings. I think its yes e should cus no one will be mad at u, and kings is a damn good buff to bring even in 10 man raids and u are the only paladin. And u will still have a high amout of TPS even whitout 5% extra crit.
Think that is the best thing to do.

[Offhand]

So should he drop Conviction for kings. I think its yes e should cus no one will be mad at u, and kings is a damn good buff to bring even in 10 man raids and u are the only paladin. And u will still have a high amout of TPS even whitout 5% extra crit.

While this may be true that the OP could spec for kings and give it to the whole raid minus tanks. I think the best course of action would be to have the OP talk to the holydin about buffing the overall raid and what's most effective.

[Svenskpally]

While this may be true that the OP could spec for kings and give it to the whole raid minus tanks. I think the best course of action would be to have the OP talk to the holydin about buffing the overall raid and what's most effective.

yes

[Dokoran]

To get the -BEST- out of your spec's, for any paladin, the -ONLY- paladin that should be getting kings is Retribution as a PVE specc'ed ret paladin has the 5 points to put in kings.

A prot paladin putting 5 points into kings is RETARDED. Dumbest idea EVER. Especially since the only person that -REALLY- should have kings is the tank. More often than not, I put buffs OTHER than kings on people, even though I have it. The only class that "needs" kings is a tank.

A holy paladin taking kings is equally as retarded. As you're gimping your healing potential so people can get a bit more mana/health/dmg? Dumb.

I suggest neither one of you drop points into kings as both of you lose effectiveness in your talent tree's just for a buff.

You don't need kings for 10 man Naxx nor heroics it's nice to have but far from required.

Though 5 points into conviction as a prot paladin = "WTF" but whatever floats your boat.

[Mishella]

A prot paladin putting 5 points into kings is RETARDED. Dumbest idea EVER. Especially since the only person that -REALLY- should have kings is the tank. More often than not, I put buffs OTHER than kings on people, even though I have it. The only class that "needs" kings is a tank.

So I'm retarded for buffing 5 DPS with Kings (they have battle shout so might is useless) at the cost of some talents that boost my DPS/TPS, which obviously means that the raid is doing far more overall DPS?
Maybe I should really spec out of it, and save reagents because I don't need to bless certain classes anymore!

doh.

You should really think twice before making such offensive statements if you aren't 100% sure to be able to back it up m8.

[Aloysius]

Offhand

I don't think it's quite as simple as you're making it out to be. Inane - Yes. Simple? No.

In the lengthy post I made a couple pages ago (I too thought the conversation would end) I explained why the entire raid benefits more from prot getting kings than holy. Additionally, from a pure who loses more standpoint for taking kings, it is clearly the holy paladin that gets gimped more. I've not heard a single good prot tank complain to me that they needed more crit for threat, many of whom did not take conviction and did pick up kings just to add raid utility.

[Offhand]

Prot doesn't get gimped at all by spending five points on kings, he just can't kings himself. That's the crux of the argument.

[gennym]

I'm a ret paladin in my guild and I've forced our Prot paladin and the two holy paladins to completely remove it from their specs. I will always be there to give kings, and they can choose things that are more beneficial to the raid and their spec. In 10 mans I'd say having kings as prot is definitely not crucial , you can raid a 10-man just fine without it. So far though, out of all the 25-mans that we've done (Maly, Sarth w/2, Naxx), I'm the only one who has been there 100% of the time so my raid has always had kings.

IMO the following is true, if you're a holy or prot paladin and your guild forces you to pick up kings.. educate them or find a new guild. If the ret paladins in your guild are not picking up 5/5 kings, educate them on why, if they disagree, tell them to find a new guild. There's absolutely NO reason at all that a retadin cannot pick up full kings.

I also offspec holy (I was holy in BC and ret is new for me technically) and in my holy build I can pick up the magical imp might and imp wisdom without losing anything overly beneficial. So proper builds maxed for personal performance as well as optimal raid buffs are the goal. If people aren't speccing properly it's time to have a chat and work with each other to ensure that the proper buffs are out there.

But in the end.. No to kings in holy or prot builds. Again, your points are better spent elsewhere, trust me, ret has free points floating about.

[Justîcar]

Offhand

I don't think it's quite as simple as you're making it out to be. Inane - Yes. Simple? No.

In the lengthy post I made a couple pages ago (I too thought the conversation would end) I explained why the entire raid benefits more from prot getting kings than holy. Additionally, from a pure who loses more standpoint for taking kings, it is clearly the holy paladin that gets gimped more. I've not heard a single good prot tank complain to me that they needed more crit for threat, many of whom did not take conviction and did pick up kings just to add raid utility.

In a situation of 1 holy and 1 prot the holy should be getting kings, for VERY obvious reasons stated several times in this thread already..

[Evereghalo]

In a situation of 1 holy and 1 prot the holy should be getting kings, for VERY obvious reasons stated several times in this thread already..

I agree, but yea we apparently have some stupid holy paladins that do not get they only lose 3% crit and not 8%, which which is funny when most say 5%

[Aloysius]

Those holies are confused with what kings loses vs what prot loses. I've never said they lose more than 3% crit and 2 additional talent points in holy tree (probably aura mastery and a point in imp LoH).

Justicar, glad you were late to the party when the consensus was originally mainly that prot should get kings, not holy. I've also seen much more sufficient evidence to this including links to tanking guides and responses from protadins themselves. Only recently have we seen some more serious dissension. Also, it's obviously not clear, or this debate wouldn't have continued.

Offhand

If you want to make the crux of the argument about protadins not being able to kings themselves (which was not the original point of this thread but I think should definitely be considered), I will rehash the scenario, noting that if prot does not take kings, they MUST take imp might in order for you to have a more valid argument.

If the holy takes kings:

Tanks get Sanc and Kings. Raid gets kings and no other improved raid buff (unless prot takes might).

If prot takes kings:

Tanks get Sanc. Raid gets kings and imp might/wisdom.

The second scenario is better for a 10 man makeup as it provides more value added to more players (in addition to not hurting one of your healers). Also, if your raid kills faster, your tanks take less overall damage. We're talking 10 man anyhow, so your tanks shouldn't be taking a ton of damage anyhow, even in naxx, sartharion, or malygos.

[Evereghalo]

Those holies are confused with what kings loses vs what prot loses. I've never said they lose more than 3% crit and 2 additional talent points in holy tree (probably aura mastery and a point in imp LoH).

Justicar, glad you were late to the party when the consensus was originally mainly that prot should get kings, not holy. I've also seen much more sufficient evidence to this including links to tanking guides and responses from protadins themselves. Only recently have we seen some more serious dissension. Also, it's obviously not clear, or this debate wouldn't have continued.

Offhand

If you want to make the crux of the argument about protadins not being able to kings themselves (which was not the original point of this thread but I think should definitely be considered), I will rehash the scenario, noting that if prot does not take kings, they MUST take imp might in order for you to have a more valid argument.

If the holy takes kings:

Tanks get Sanc and Kings. Raid gets kings and no other improved raid buff (unless prot takes might).

If prot takes kings:

Tanks get Sanc. Raid gets kings and imp might/wisdom.

The second scenario is better for a 10 man makeup as it provides more value added to more players (in addition to not hurting one of your healers). Also, if your raid kills faster, your tanks take less overall damage. We're talking 10 man anyhow, so your tanks shouldn't be taking a ton of damage anyhow, even in naxx, sartharion, or malygos.

are you serious?

your going for 18Mp5 and 100ishAP over the tank getting say 2-4k HP, which is what kings can do fully raid buffed. which if you have a warrior there is the alternative to the imp might.

It is mind blowing that you place so much value on improved wisdom? that is joke, holy paladins dont even NEED Mp5 as a primary stat any more, and if your smart only half of your dps benefits from AP in a raid. thats what 300 more AP collectivly, versus 2-4k on the tank?

come on? if you have that preference then that is your preference, but I will tell you this if I was in a guild with people like minded to you? I would so gquit.

[Aloysius]

No, I don't think my guild wants to lose a top dps'er and someone fairly knowledgeable about his class. Again note that I did not insult you and it only makes you look foolish and undermines your statement.

Also, please read the whole response and don't just comment on one class getting imp BoW, especially when blizz continues to nerf raid mana return (see new JotW changes).

I'm glad you're passionate about your position to the point of anger (so many frustrated little boys on these forums) but since you're missing the point obviously it's not worth discussing one rare situation ad nauseum.

[maevtr]

Progressing through 10 man naxx atm and we have two pallys, a holy pally and me. Neither of us have kings, and I'm wondering if I should drop conviction to get Kings? It will be a good raid wide damage boost. What are your thoughts on this?

believe me - i hated the idea of getting kings and losing out on 5 points, but it really is do-able, check my spec on armory if you want an idea. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...Tor&n=Darionus

[Offhand]

Please Aloysius, it helps to read my actual explanation before basing your assumptions off poor data. If you had read my original full explanation you would in fact see a link to a prot spec with imp might.

So now I understand that you're suggesting the raid buffs are casters - imp wisdom, kings, melee - imp might, kings, tanks - sanc, imp might? That's a terrible idea. The trade off for holy getting this buff is kings on tanks and all of 18mp5 lost from imp wisdom.

You can argue that 10 mans are a joke, that really doesn't change this as the most optimal raid setup. If you are, in fact, a dps then it's safe to assume you don't realize the target you're healing's health is just as important as your own mana pool. The truth is that if there were 2 paladins in a 25 man raid, holy would still need to take kings.

[Aloysius]

I read your specs but prot taking might wasn't clarified in this thread. The ORIGINAL point of this thread was who was gimped more by taking kings, Holy or Prot. The answer is holy.

In a raid setup, if the protadin has might and there are still only 2 paladins - this is such ridiculous semantics - then it's fine for the holy to have kings since you're only affecting one healer for the good of the raid.

[Offhand]

Well holy is obviously "gimped" in the slightest by taking kings, this doesn't mean they shouldn't take it. Personal performance is always less important than the greater good of the raid. Arguing "who gets gimped more" is semantics.