DW: 0/32/39 vs 0/44/27

[CaffeinateMe]

Dual-wielding specs:

0/32/39
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=101221040501

VS

0/44/27
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=101221040501

Has anyone had a chance to test these two specs out and can provide some input towards the benefits/downfalls of either? Also what would be the differences in rotations between these two, besides the RP dump (DC vs FS) if any. (Curious about waiting for Rime to proc before HB with 0/44/27 (like 0/32/39) or just including it in every rotation with extra PS/ITs if Rime did happen to proc).

I'm pretty sure these will be the dominating DW specs after HB has it's cooldown removed (if they aren't already)... As of now I'm leaning towards 0/44/27 mostly because BotN will make my pestilence proc Death Runes while the BB from Reaping will pretty much never be used, altering my rotations for AoE while 0/32/39.

Apologies if this has all been discussed before and any input will be appreciated. Thanks!

[dethakus]

0/44/27 imo. 32/39 is dumb. DW spec is based one getting KB to proc and get non stop HB crits. why would you sacriface 45% HB crit damage (when it will always crit with good gear) and get 5% more damage with desecration and 2% more damage with boneshield. also blood of the north does the exact same thing as reaping so your not missing out on death runes. also i feel if your gonna dualwield you shouldnt get frost strike.

[CaffeinateMe]

Also blood of the north does the exact same thing as reaping so your not missing out on death runes.

Well I was referring to losing death runes when you'd cast pest instead of BS. Which won't turn into a Death Rune with reaping, just BotN. Pretty tough choice still IMO, +7% overall damage (including the IT that gets spammed OH SO MUCH with these specs) or the +45% to HB.

[dethakus]

well HB makes up for over 30% of my damage, and also i use hatestrike and grasscutter. once i get the crit trinket from badges and get hopefully close to 30% crit, im sure KB will always be up. i guess i would have to try it out 32/39 myself before i really know, but im gonna wait till i get better gear. and with HB CD being removed im sure 44/27 will be better to have as well.

[Zhalseran]

I can't comment on 0/44/27, I have not tried it, and as far as the theory goes I don't think either has proven to be conclusively superior.

As far as 0/32/39 is concerned however, I love it. In mostly heroic epics/emblem gear I can pull 4k dps pretty consistently fully raid buffed. This is using 2 fast weapons with fallen crusader/razorice runes.

44/27 may prove to be slightly better with HW's cooldown removed, but I don't think by any significant amount. It all comes down to the same question: is the crit bonus from Guile of Gorefiend better than the 7% across the board DPS boost from Bone Shield + Desecration? One thing I will say is I like reaping + deathcoil a lot for fights with lots of movement, Heigan the Unclean comes to mind. I can use IT + HB and deathcoil from a distance, and then blood boil to get some death runes to use more ITs.

As far as FS is concerned I think it is stronger than DC at lower gear levels, but DC scales better. Don't quote me on that though. I saw some discussion about it on the EJ forum recently and I think the number I saw was at 4200 ap DC > FS (assuming a slow MH of course). Fully raid buffed 4200 ap is not very hard to get.

The other thing to consider is an alteration on the 0/32/39. Corpse Explosion is bad and the points in dirge aren't really neccessary (imo). Slap a point in Crypt fever and you have another disease multiplier for BS and BCB. Put the last 2 points in Night of the Dead come next patch and your pet will stay alive much more reliably, which is a pretty big DPS boost on some fights that you can't get in a 0/44/27 spec.

[breathweapon]

That 32/39 spec is dubious, you should never, ever be using Plague Strike or Death Strike enough to justify Dirge over Epidemic and the latter is obligatory for 3xHowling Blast rotations. I doubt Desecration is the DPS increase you think it is, because after the first Plague Strike you'll Pestilence to spread and re-apply diseases so you can 2xHowling Blast instead of 1xHowling Blast, 1xIcy Touch and 1x Plague Strike.

Whoever said Corpse Explosion is bad isn't PTRing, it's 2xDamge and 40 runic power, which makes it the default AOE runic power dump and you can do stupid DPS with Corpse Explosion->Ghoul->Night of the Living Dead.

I'm not sure Merciless Combat > Deathchill on anything but trash.

[Corvax80]

On the rotation of 0/44/27 ( I will be trying this out on our next raid )

Would this be the proper rotation
IT-PS-HB-HB-BS-FS ( till runic power is gone )
IT-PS-HB-IT-IT-FS ( till runic power is gone )

Repeat

I was doing the 0/32/39 build for a bit in 10 mans and 5 man heroic and was doing decent damage

[Nyanmaru]

On the rotation of 0/44/27 ( I will be trying this out on our next raid )

Would this be the proper rotation
IT-PS-HB-HB-BS-FS ( till runic power is gone )
IT-PS-HB-IT-IT-FS ( till runic power is gone )

Repeat

I was doing the 0/32/39 build for a bit in 10 mans and 5 man heroic and was doing decent damage

"IT-PS-HB-HB-BS-FS" <--- F U FU FU B - 7 Runes in 1 cycle 2 being death runes and one tapped?
"IT-PS-HB-IT-IT-FS" <--- F U FU F F you start with all Death Runes?

think of:
PS - IT - HB - BS - BS - Runedump - HB IT IT HB - Runedump - Repeat
or with the upcoming patch:
PS - IT - HB - BS - BS - Runedump - HB HB HB - Runedump - Repeat

[Corvax80]

OK thanks for the info on that roation will try that out

[dethakus]

well yesterday i did a instance and HB was 36% of my damage IT being 16% and melee being 15%. which accounts for 67% of my damage( of course this is including AOE damage not just single) so there is another 33%


45% of 36% is 16.2%

7% of 16% is 1.12% 7% of 15% is 1.05% and 7% of 33%(the rest of my damage) is 2.31% which comes up to 4.48% damage increase if i spec 32/39. (not including HB damage from speccing 32/39

if you add 7% damage to HB instead of 45% more crit damage then its not gonna put that 4.48% anywhere near what you can get with HB speccing 44/27. and mind you i only have 20.50% crit unbuffed( i have a lot of shitty gear still) so if you include the fact that HB is getting its cooldown removed, using 2 fast weapons like myself (hatestrike/grasscutter) which = 1.1 speed both hands with unholy presence and icy talons, and better gear for higher crit rating that 36% damage from HB would be even higher.

[klineshrike]

Ive been a devout supporter of 0/32/39 forever, in fact i had planned on this spec before it became popular -_-.

The keys are mostly in the added disease, which is huge for BCB and BCB is a hge part of your dps. The extra disease also makes BS mch better than with BOTN. GOG seems nice in theory, but its really only benefitting one skill (Howling blast) becase GOG is the only reason frost strike even compares to DC. So you get nearly similar dps from DC with no talent as you get from frost strike with a 3 point talent, and even then you rely heavilly on FS critting often from KM, which is taking procs away from HB. And you need those procs on HB most because HB is pretty much going to have an abysmal crit rate on its own.

GOG is highly overrated - while the removal of the HB CD will increase its usefulness in theory, you will still have the same number of KM procs, and most of the time there wont be enough to get all those HB. The actual increase in DPS from GOG is slightly higher than what bone shield and Des add, even assuming a poor des uptime. Then factor in the benefits to BCB and you see where this is going.

As for rotation, I usually go IT PS HB BS BS / IT PS HB IT IT. With the removal of the HB CD I will still prolly use IT on those death runes, as it does fine damage and could proc rime for a FREE HB. If you factor in rimes proc rate to HB and the base crit rate on IT from talents, its actually more dps to use 2 IT when possible - however HB is better se of a FU so unless you have death runes HB > IT PS. Before the removal of the HB cd hoever, I would use leftover runes from rime procs as IT PS - which would give much better desecration uptime. This change will kind of take away some of Desecrations usefulness in that regard, but is a slight dps increase.

I guess the 0/44/27 spec will gain much more benefit from this patch than 0/32/39. But I still think the latter is superior and scales much better.

[klineshrike]

nholy runes are easy to come by. Not to mention have you ever heard of Blood tap?
BCB isnt going to be high on the list, but its still significant. if you could find damage added by GOG on your list, it would be pretty low too you know. Not to mention, of course your BCB is low - you dont have a third disease.

And frost strike is still better in that build - to ignore it is kind of silly. Its going to crit much more often than DC (due to being a melee based skill) and it gains benefits from Razorice (which ALL DWing DKs should have - fallen crusader doesnt double up well) and when it does crit, this is where it passes DC untill much higher gear levels.

If you dont even use frost strike GOG affects one single skill, a skill that does less damage thn 2 IT, and is only used to expel unholy runes when blood plague is already up. And when rime procs. You go 12 points extra in a tree for that one thing, when you can get so much more out of the other.

[klineshrike]

they are very close based on playstyle, the diff is though unholy has room to grow much more, as you are locked in on a fairly high critrate on hb, and thats where you see that big boost.

Although pre patch you should not be gaining 11% dps from just 45% more crit damage on one skill - that means your rotation is a bit off and your white damage is nonexsistant

[Speckz]

Having read the thread, I'm now wondering about this spec for when the patch comes out. Would 2 fast weapons be more efficient than slow mh / fast oh? I'm kind of curious, but I don't really like the idea of two fast weapons to be honest.

[Speckz]

If ur going for HB crits yes fast/ fast is the way to go.

I see. Thanks.

[klineshrike]

Fast/fast works cause of killing machine and BCB is apparently normalized which makes no sense. But this means BCB actually does MORE damage the fast the MH. Faster MH = more procs for normalized damage.

[Zhalseran]

I personally use 2 fast weapons (Widow's Fury/Grasscutter) and found it to be a slightly higher average sustained DPS than slow/fast (Titansteel Bonecrusher/Widow's Fury) with a 0/32/39 build. As far as grinding/trash goes its a bit of a wash though. For pvp it is utter crap T_T