25 Man Raid Blood Vs Unholy

[Analith]

Okay So to explain a little bit, Im not new to the raiding scene i used to raid as a warlock cleared everything before anything became easy, So i decided it was time for a change so when the expansion came out i went Death knight, And well as far as raiding goes Ive done both blood specs

51-13-7
51-0-20

I've found if 51-0-20 if played right it does alot more dmg than 51-13-7, but with 51-0-20 I can easily get top 3 on the meters. But i've heard rumors going around that unholy is somewhat better for dps/dmg in 25 man raids...Ive looked at posts and most are just rants or people bashing on each other so i figured i would make a post asking people to post there specs and maybe wws showing the difference between a couple different raid specs hopefully finding out the best possible raid spec with rotation and to hopefully end this battle to which blood or unholy is better. Thanks! And good posting

Also a quick post

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ream&n=Analith

Is my armory I am currently a messed up pvp spec but otherwise all the gear is there that i use for raiding most of it top of the line 25 man naxx, ect

[Porphy]

There are a ton of people here that will write down baseless information pointed solely at personal prefference and tell you it's fact. I'd suggest trying it out on your own based off of some research and coming to your own conclusions. If that isn't enough head to ElitistJerks (EJ) and do some research there, they are unbiased and a great information source.

The typical Unholy DPS build is:

17/0/54 - tweaks and details vary too much to post a solid link to a cookie cutter spec so here is one just for the BLOOD side of the spec the rest is personal preference and situational. For instance I don't take Unholy Aura because I usually have another Unholy DK that has it. EDIT: I should clarify - that spec has the talents you want in it minus Unholy Aura (if you're solo raidng as unholy) it's the point dispersion among the talents that is situational. For instance, if you are well over the hit cap then virulence (since hit applies to spells too) isn't AS needed. It helps a ton but it won't be as high a priority. Also be aware of future changes to the class, they will effect your build as well.

The EJ DPS Compendium outlines some issues very well.

All the information can be found HERE as well as a nifty thread on unholy DPS.

[mars]

once again, blood is going to and as far as i can tell continue to rain supreme on single target bosses. do you want to do more damage on a single boss? or do you want to see pretty little numbers fly everywhere on the mobs? A blood DK being out dps'd by a unholy DK on a single target of equal gear = a terribad blood DK.

try both, you'll see.

[mysteltainn]

I want to know the foundation of your statement that 51/0/20 does "a lot more damage".

5%str and BCB's?

Also, DRW without annihilation seems less potent, i like to pop empowered rune weapon and bust out like 3-4 oblits with diseases up. Be better off with gargoyle?

[Zugzugpeon]

as a blood dk with pretty decent gear - i can hit 4.2k on patchwerk with 51/13/7, Unholy dks can add an extra 600 onto that figure - and after playing both specs i'd have to say i enjoy blood more - but right now unholy 17/0/54 does more damage even to single targets - including your ghoul/garg.

[gerimias]

i was using 51/0/20 spec and i was able to do better dps than a 51/13/7 with better gear than me. I know that skills > gear but i dont think is that cos i know he is a good player.

I havent tried the anihilation spec but it doesnt seem attractive to me cos u waste 10 points in order to get anihilation.

Unholy spec also seems attractive and tbh it is the best spec i have tried on single target and aoe dmg.

[Nilaihah]

Unholy has the potential to pump out a lot more damage that Blood, even on single target.

But this hinges on the damn Gargoyle, which is as sturdy as an origami crane.

Blood+Gargoyle is an interesting build that pumps a lot of damage but it has the same limitation.

Overall, DRW does less damage... but it lives a lot longer.

As a partially related note, I subscribe to the idea that topping damage in trash is flashy, but in all fairness its pretty useless. As unholy I normally stay at the top regardless of AoE pack or single target, but I do wish my DPS wasn't depending on that damn gargoyle so much; when it goes down, so does a huge chunk of DPS

[Arisen]

51/13/7 i tried for along time after getting to 80 but in a raid environment (25man, not done much 10man thus far), i found it to be severely dependent on the rotation staying tight.

Where it has great potential i agree, but on mobile fights i found keeping up any sort of rotation to be difficult to say the least. Gluth for example, Sartharion, Grobbulus, 4 horses, sapphiron (only 10man so far). All movement meant my diseases ran out before the big-hitting second death rune rotation was completed.

Now ive specced for gargoyle 50/0/21 with necrosis and BcB and granted, the disease refresing eats up the dps potential of the first spec i posted, i find it a lot more consistent on fights that demand movement and positioning.

Now ive had a chance to test it out on a few raids i may change gargoyle for DRW purely because the gargoyle tends to die easily and gets killed by AoE damage. This may mean a slight loss of dps because of the time limitation of DRW but i'd much rather consistency than chances of epic dps.

Unholy dps does seem to be higher overall but i never managed to fall in love with the pet aspect of it. Not had an unholy dpser to compare against in a raid setting yet mind.

[Analith]

Okay sorry took me a while to read everyones post and get back, Well...From what i have heard that unholy DOES do more dps/dmg on single target ( not thinking about trash aoe ) on single target bosses. Ive been playing 51-0-20 and Personally I love it its a little harder to play than 51-13-7 because you actually have to know when to use obli as it eats your diseases. 51-13-7 is just a basic cookie cutter spec pop diseases spam buttons do okay. 51-0-20 also doesn't rely so much on a rotation as 51-13-7.

What I am trying to find is Okay unholy does more but only cause of gargoyle? I mean our DK tank is unholy so i know he adds to my dps but I just can't seem to get my hands on this...

I think the part thats going to bug ME the most is the pet aspect of unholy, as to where i used to play my lock i HATED having a pet and when blizzard made it to where omg imps are good? just lost my interest in that class maybe its cause deep down i wanted to be a mage that blew shit up but i was able to do bigger numbers than a mage idk...

Only class that beats me right now in dps is huntard but meh there getting nerfed and so is there overpowered pets.

I want to see a warrior nerf with deep wounds I mean blizzard said they know deep wounds is doing to much dmg but there not ready to nerf it. I hope with the HS buff to dk's and some other minors changes that it will make blood a much more how do i put this viable spec? I mean With blood i do good on the meters but only take over when i pop cooldowns and then i normally stay on top...

I guess im ranting alot of stuff going through my mind christmas and RL...So many of you will have to read this say screw you ur stupid before i reread and rewrite =)....

On a side note, Dk pvp...Any noticed sorta how frustrating it can be? I have tried unholy and blood pvp specs and well its like okay i can burst yay they can heal...or yay imagine reslience in 3 months have fun trying to burst...

Thanks!

[Porphy]

As far as the Unholy pet goes, it's at the bottom of the tree on importance. It IS nice but if you spend too much time monitoring it..or heaven forbid runic healing it in combat you're gimping DPS. Just let it do it's thing and if it dies resummon it when you can.

Blood will outstrip Unholy in DPS once you get some top notch gear. We're talking naxx 25 in most slots. DRW for now isn't as powerful as Garg until you get that strong gear and reach the hit cap since it's damage is based off your damage where as the gargoyle is pretty much just a spam nuker every 3 mins. I haven't seen repeated performances of Blood beating Unholy yet (I'm sure one or two DK's are out there doing it) but expect this discussion, and even my POV, to change once most long term DK's get setup in phat gear.

Like I said originally just test it out yourself and research at site dedicated to doing good research (like EJ). You'll do fine.

[mysteltainn]

51/13/7 i tried for along time after getting to 80 but in a raid environment (25man, not done much 10man thus far), i found it to be severely dependent on the rotation staying tight.

Where it has great potential i agree, but on mobile fights i found keeping up any sort of rotation to be difficult to say the least. Gluth for example, Sartharion, Grobbulus, 4 horses, sapphiron (only 10man so far). All movement meant my diseases ran out before the big-hitting second death rune rotation was completed.

Now ive specced for gargoyle 50/0/21 with necrosis and BcB and granted, the disease refresing eats up the dps potential of the first spec i posted, i find it a lot more consistent on fights that demand movement and positioning.

Now ive had a chance to test it out on a few raids i may change gargoyle for DRW purely because the gargoyle tends to die easily and gets killed by AoE damage. This may mean a slight loss of dps because of the time limitation of DRW but i'd much rather consistency than chances of epic dps.

Unholy dps does seem to be higher overall but i never managed to fall in love with the pet aspect of it. Not had an unholy dpser to compare against in a raid setting yet mind.

Confused by how having a move not eat diseases makes the rotation using the EXACT same abilities more simple.

I ran some heroics today as 51/0/20 and if I slipped up it was a huge dmg loss. Granted, the fights I did it right on I was over 3.6k with BoK as the only non self buff.

Is 51/0/20 superior to 51/13/7 simply because of scaling? *i also like the fact that it uses RP more*

I can see how with Sigil of Awareness and t7 4 piece bonus for RP generation 17/0/54 would be a good spec, but my heart strikes hit as hard as most scourge strikes i've seen, and I get to use 6 of them to your 4 per rotation, plus 2 oblits. Where is unholy making up the dmg from the large gaps in time you can't always fill with Death Coils?

[Porphy]

"Where is unholy making up the dmg from the large gaps in time you can't always fill with Death Coils?"

More magic and disease damage overall. Plus for now, Gargoyle is superior to DRW, in that you'd need to do more damage with DRW + DC in 20 seconds than gargoyle can do in a minute. DRW also has a nasty habit of being mitigated more and hitting from the front. Another big myth is that Unholy is locked out of DC's while Gargoyle is out. This isn't the case, it is tough but you can squeeze out 1-2 DC's while it's up and still maintain it for max duration.

Aside from the DPS argument there is also the fact that Blood's raid utility isn't as useful as Unholy's. It's a situational argument of course but ebon plague is the easiest form of gained spell damage for a raid so far, it's hard for hysteria to compete.

[Morthengel]

With the current level of raiding gear available, I do not think there is a considerable difference between blood and unholy dps based on wws reports and players' experiences. But it seems like blood will scale much better at T8-9 content because the physical damage component is bigger. Blood will benefit more from things like ArP and haste, and unholy will start lacking.

[Porphy]

Hrm, I doubt it'll start lacking. I think they'll just be more niche then they are now. At that gear level Blood will be the single target choice spec and Unholy will be the AoE choice. I think I'll stay Unholy because of quick trash killing and the ebon plague utility. Many folks will say "trash doesn't matter as long as it dies in the end trash DPS isn't a big deal." I beg to differ. Getting through trash quick can mean the difference between 4 or 5 bosses on a raid night or 4 to 5 attempts on a progression boss. Getting the extra attempt or kill each raid night adds up.

[Molo]

I want to know the foundation of your statement that 51/0/20 does "a lot more damage".

5%str and BCB's?

Also, DRW without annihilation seems less potent, i like to pop empowered rune weapon and bust out like 3-4 oblits with diseases up. Be better off with gargoyle?

You do realize that DRW doesn't take advantage of the Annihilation talent thus removing It's own diseases when you use Obliterate.

[Porphy]

You do realize that DRW doesn't take advantage of the Annihilation talent thus removing It's own diseases when you use Obliterate.

Hell, I didn't even know that and I'm pretty well versed in the DK knowledge base. Blood is not my shtick granted, but this is very interesting. I'll have to make sure my raiding "blood brothers" know about this.

[Kenark]

Did I not read somewhere on the news page that they will buff the ghoul. maybe unholy will catch up a bit on blood with the change?

[Porphy]

Que? Unholy right now surpasses Blood. Theoretically Blood could perform better than Unholy with great gear but we have yet to see that with the current gear.

Yes, the ghoul is getting fixed. There will be a talent (Night of the Dead) that will add additional AoE avoidance to our pets. Also, they are giving us an additional spell to raise fallen members as ghouls so we have 2 now one for personal pets and one for allies so the former doesn't get consumed by the later or vise versa. Blizz also announced awhile ago that they wanted the pets to spawn faster as being summoned or dismounting, instead of the long animation they have now, but I have yet to hear anything more about that.

[Offhand]

Que? Unholy right now surpasses Blood. Theoretically Blood could perform better than Unholy with great gear but we have yet to see that with the current gear.

I suppose if you're hitting target dummies instead of a raid debuffed boss that could be the case. Blood simply scales much better on the appropriate debuffs (sunders, ebon plague, etc) whereas unholy is already bringing the best buff you can give it.

In conclusion, if blood is losing to unholy then you either have a bad blood DK or a bad raid.

[Porphy]

I suppose if you're hitting target dummies instead of a raid debuffed boss that could be the case. Blood simply scales much better on the appropriate debuffs (sunders, ebon plague, etc) whereas unholy is already bringing the best buff you can give it.

In conclusion, if blood is losing to unholy then you either have a bad blood DK or a bad raid.

Please please show some proof. An EJ link might make me re-think my stance but all I've seen thus far is unholy outstripping blood. Here's some unholy recount pics. Fault is Unholy, Absence Unholy (new to the build), and Umbrae as Blood (last pic).

Patchwerk - great single target DPS check.


Grobbulus - Notice how even with a movement fight DPS stays high.


Gluth -


Now these guys are just getting into naxx gear and all about the same iLvL. I know this isn't proof positive but I see this time and time again in raids, groups, all over. Spread sheets say the same thing. Most of the discussion on EJ, same deal. So here's just some small in game proof that Unholy is out DPSing blood.

I'll say it again. Theoretically Blood will outstrip Unholy given really nice gear. I have yet to see it. Until then, I'll stick with Unholy and state it is the best. Given a new patch and some big badder raid content opening up, sure we'll start to see Blood Dk's outstripping Unholies on the meters. Let's also account that overall damage (including trash) unholies rock the socks. That extra timed saved on trash can prolong a raid (or speed it up enough) to kill an extra boss or get an extra attempt in on a progression mob.


EDIT: Just noticed Minotorn on there. On this raid he was Tri-spec (IIRC) an since has jumped to a secure spot in 3-5th place as Unholy (his gear/enchants need some work, mainly a weapon.)