Balance Druid needs some sort of surviving skill

[sonofcronos]

: : : What do you think of this matter? : : :

[Marus]

Right now cyclone and roots sadly are almost useless. You need to cast them which you won't be able too if you are focused. And even if you would get a cast through those classes who don't have an immediate defense to it (cloak of shadows) would just use their insignia and kill you.

You will almost never get to cast a second roots or cyclone. Even if you would 3 second cyclone isn't enough to survive.

Healing is also very tricky. If you get caught in casterform by rogues or any kind of stun (hammer of justice by paladins for example) you are as good as dead.

[Noclue]

They can heal themselves, kickass armor modifier, cyclone, roots... need i say more

Heal themselves yes, but not for very much. A Ret Paladin has better, stronger and quicker heals than a Moonkin does.

Kickass armor? no not anymore. Armor bonus was nerfed and the PvP gear no longer has bonus armor. I have less armor than an elemental shaman does.

Both of those above do little to survive the arena burst going on right now.

cyclone and roots are good but it isn't currently enough since both have a cast time and the 20% reduction from Barkskin is very poor compared to skills like CloS, AMS, Iceblock, bubble, etc...

If burst dmg wasn't so high, Moonkins would be in very good shape. Since burst dmg is so high, Moonkins along with a few other class/specs(Elemental shamans) need a burst surviving move.

[Kuninas]

How about a skill like the mages have where once you are silenced/interrupted you become immune to both for like 10sec or something (this kind not the same as the mage spell of course)?

[Gotjuice]

Yeah boomkins definitely need more surviving skills, its not like they can root/cyclone/travel form AND HEAL!!!! idiots

[Nirual]

Yeah boomkins definitely need more surviving skills, its not like they can root/cyclone/travel form AND HEAL!!!! idiots

Thats like saying Rogues don't need evasion, cloak of shadows, vanish etc because they can stun/sap/sprint and bandage.

Okay, the bandage part was sarcasm. Fact is, our only way to counter enemy lockdowns is barkskin and the pvp trinket. Meanwhile, our enemies can safely trinket out of Cyclone knowing that we need 1.3ish seconds to recast it for an already halved effect, roots are useless againsts anything but melee and travelform is useful, but only in a certain range until your enemies get out of combat and mount up. And running away is probably not the most useful tactic in arenas to begin with (although my arena team once won when the enemy team was hellbent on killing me first).
I actually thought Typhoon would be a great tool for pvp... until I learned its only 5 yards and every other knockback ability introduced in WotLK does more. At least it can be used as an interupt if you get the timing right and the caster isn't immobilized...

[Nilith]

Ill agree to give them some survivability IF
All their spells dmg are reduced to 50% so you can actualy survive a druid while being cheapshotted.

[Nirual]

and use stafall to stun when you need it (even if its only a chance, it happens alot) u should have less problems

You kidding me? If I pop starfall in PvP I just die faster from everyone focusing me to supress the effect. Sure, you can get a few stuns out of it in the unlikely case you don't get stunned immediately, but with that range you'll have to be extremely lucky to have it stun those players that pose the most threat.
And it's getting nerfed even more to boot. From what I read in the patchnotes, enemies can just CC you if no rogue is there to stunlock you. Going travelform to avoid melee while the effect fires? Not for you.

[Nirual]

Ill agree to give them some survivability IF
All their spells dmg are reduced to 50% so you can actualy survive a druid while being cheapshotted.

Ah, I wasn't aware we did 100% more damage than other classes in exchange for being a sitting duck. /sarcasm

[Dooudad]

perhaps changes to owlkin frenzy which was ment to help you survive a little more would be better then continual statments of the short falls of survival in pvp for boomkins. i mean the post here over and over just talk about where you fall short with only 1 so far mention of a change to help (the one about 10 second cyclone).

[mikklas]

Well... You get very good dmg and why not just use your different forms? That is a lot of survival along with entangling roots and cyclone. Use all your spells and you are a very good class.

[gomi]

To answer you topic "Balance Druid needs some sort of surviving skill" no we dont need more survivng skill absoultly not. There is two classes that have the best surviving tools in the game mage and druids. We already got two new skill to survive Typhoon and Starfall and for typhoon go and practise this skill this one is a great access when you learn how to use it.

No, to many post about moonkins survivbilies and again this is completley wrong this is our strong side I say it again this is our stronge side . We have issues but it is not our survivbilites it is our passive damage reduction. I have already wrote about this so I just going to link it, it is the last post in this link

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=31862.30

[zell71]

hahaha after months of god mode balanced druids are getting owned now?
nice, welcome to wow.

[Degiance]

Dunno got a admit its been fun seein a balance actualy breakin a sweat in the arena.
Those diseases really are the end of a balance when they cant be removed like rogues poisons with Abolish poison.
Then the armor reduction balance/resto cant jump to bear and feral charge which was a ace sometimes.
Then shapeshifting back and forth even with the Natural shapeshifter can drain your mana pretty fast. (If some people noticed the mana costs can hurt on shifting)
Armor reduction i remember when balance/resto druids (at lvl70) kept sayin that they had like 20k armor totaly abusin the feral talent tree.
Now they barely get it to 15k or over, heard rumors about arcane mage having more armor than a oomkin which was kinda funny.
(arcane mage with balance druid might work)
Got to admit i enjoy how balance got finally normalized and sorta lost its versitility like it should have been from the start.
If they get a survival talent now its gona ruin the actual "balance" again /harsh joke

[Freyjah]

Simple Solution: Find a spec where you can survive in arena and respec...

[gomi]

Sorry but we do need something, can you tell me what are your tools to survive? as a BALANCE druid not resto we're talking about balance, mages got iceblock druids? barkskin? we got no escape button like them. how about cyclone... you can counterspell 8 sec silence for nature spells, spell lock, kick... and what can you do when your silenced?
/shapeshift stance 5
/dance

Did you read my post and did you read my link?

Seems like you didnt do either of them or didnt understand it at all. Anyway your respond of the my post clearly show you are a average joe mookin. You asking what surviving tools we have,,, warning warning a noob ;D. Okej I am litte bit harsh one you.

So lets make it clear for you what tools we have to survive. To begin with we cant be snared lot of other classes are base on that skill to setup ohter things this is much harder on druids ex frost nova for mage so they can shatter combo more ex we are immune to polymorph, priest mana burn even if they cant pull it of you always have to play like they can and we have great tool for that mr teddy bear or cat if you want. So shapeshifting and our form it self give us lot of surviving tools.

Healing our second trade mark hots (healing over time). Our healing or most of them that we use are instant and can be cast while we move, while we move. That means you can do other things while the hots is ticking either it is kiting nuking or cc. Also means you can use the concept pre healing. That you heal your self before the in coming damage. This is our shiled if you want to compare to other classes absorbing spells ( mage and priest ) not barksin. This is no news for a good moonkin player, it is basic basic skill that all moonkins should know dosnt matter if it is average joe or not.

Now the last one is our cc root and cyclone. Well after wotlk we got Nature Grasp for free and we still have the best cc spell in the game cyclone if you ask me.

So do we lack any surviving skills? No I dont thinks so it is more contrary. The issue is the lack of skill to use them that makes the problem for the people who ask for more survivning skills.

But we have some issue and that is the passive damage reduction that dont scale with todays damage not our survivel tools or skill. Let me explaine in tbc we had 400% armor barksin 20% damage reduction. In wotlk 370% armor and still the same with our barksin. As we all know they buff up the melee damage. So after the barkskin fade out we taking more and faster damage then in tbc. My suggetion for that was to scale up the barkskin to 30% damage reduction.

/target average joe boomkin
/cast steamroll
/dance

[Brakaa]

I can agree on the armor, but comparing barkskin and iceblock is a little unfair.
1 minute CD that allows casting and negates pushback vs
5 min CD that completely stops action and movement for 10s/until cancelled

We can still get BoPed (or HAND of P'ed).
You still need good teammates that can help peel a determined melee.
If you get out of range (you have this easier than anyone else in the game) you can pop a full HT/hot stack and run back to the fight.
Nature's Grasp. Learn to love it/use it.

Warstomp is good. Shadowmeld is good.

Use typhoon on the run to push melee out of range.

DKs are a direct counter class to druids in general. You will get facerolled by mediocre DKs.
Warriors have been living with the inability to solo frost mages for a while. It's something we have to get over.

There is room for skilled players of any druid spec to make it on a good arena team. Not every class can say that, so find what you're best at and work on it.

[icecold]

My druid by far has more survivablity than my mage. Let see first I can wear leather on my druid which is like at least double the armor of my mage to begin with. Then add in the 370% armor buff from boomkin form plus then barskin which is castable ever minute with no debuff. And the large amounts of cc for druids compared to mages. 24 second cd on nova which is trinket removeable etc. compared to what i think its a 1 and half second cd on cyclone? poly which can not be used on a shape shifted druid. plus gets less and less effective as you cast it plus the nerf of poly morph down to 10 seconds. Honestly Druids have the best survivablity imo. Castable hots and debuffs of poisons plus your ability to switch forms and remove any stuns or slowing effects. I am sorry if you are QQing for more survivability you fail as a druid. My druid is an unstoppable force in balance as well as feral. I think the only spec I have found difficulty killing people is resto. But I was still able to do it. Just when my mana pool was lower it was bit more difficult but still possible. The lack of cc found for druids is made up by thier armor buffs.

[gomi]

I have to a apologze to I1aden I see now that I wrote the wrong link so I going to post it here. I open a topic before wotlk relase about boomkin issue


Quote
FSU: The positives are that we finally got some bloat reduction in our talent tree. I still think we need more, but I doubt Blizzard will give any. We also gained 2 new spells, both of which we can use while being attacked. This is very helpful to PvP where before when you're focused if you don't fake an interrupt you end up only being able to spam DoTs. I like starfall as a gimmicky sort of out, where I can use it to stun melee chasing me as well as doing damage. Typhoon is pretty bad overall, I only like it for it's damage; the mana cost and knockback are laughable at best. I also like the new eclipse for PvP. Ironically Blizzard made it for PvE but 30% crit to starfire after a wrath crit is no laughing matter; my plan currently is to spam wrath until I have wrath of elune and eclipse up, then throw out a 1-1.5 second starfire that crits for a ton.

I'd love to see us given a 4-5 second silence instead of typhoon. This would be infinitely more helpful and allow us to finally be able to interrupt casters more consistently. I also still must advocate for a PvP survivability talent. The amount of damage classes can do is very strong, and our inability to do anything while stunned or feared after our first trinket and barkskin is very disheartening. A simple 2 point talent that gives us 30% reduction on fear duration and 30% damage reduction while stunned (primal tenacity for Moonkin basically) would help so much. It boggles my mind that we haven't been given any survivability talent yet.


This is a quaote form the Site Gray Matters I hope FSU you dont mind that I copy it and continue the matter here instead.


There is somethings I totaly agree with you and some I dont. Over all the change we got I am happy with it dosent mean we dont need fix or tweak some spells or talent tree. The first weakness atm imo the biggest weakness we have is that we dont scale so good with our passive reduction spells against todays amount of damage ppl can put out. As you said:

Quote
The amount of damage classes can do is very strong, and our inability to do anything while stunned or feared after our first trinket and barkskin is very disheartening. A simple 2 point talent that gives us 30% reduction on fear duration and 30% damage reduction while stunned (primal tenacity for Moonkin basically) would help so much. It boggles my mind that we haven't been given any survivability talent yet


Ok they reduce our armor from 400% to 370% not much but over all it feels litte bit. Now we enter the Wotlk from tbc we also need to upgrade our Barkskin that dont scale any more with the todays damage, the 20% was fine in tbc but not after the patch or wotlk. So armor reduce and barkskin that dont scale with the other damage out put, our passive reduction is little bit behind.

Personal I dont like the idea that you add some new ability or spell to balance the class or spec. I think it is better to tweak the things we already have. My suggestion to balance the matter of our damage reduction is to tweak our barkskin. Leave the 370% as it is and increase barkskin to 30% instead of the old 20%. Barkskin cd need to be reduce alot from 1m to 40s then we have 30s cd (28 exact). I rater go with 10s duration and 40s cd then 12s duration with 1 min cd.

Should we add 30% redúction of fear also? Well let see what we have atm, barkskin reduce all damage taken by 30% under 10s with 40s cd. I dont see any reason not to add 30% reduction of fear but I have another suggetion that barkskin could do. Lot of classes can remove our heals to easy, lock, mage, prot warrior, shaman, and priest. I had in my mind that barkskin could give us immunity from any dispell under thouse 10s.

Healing is a big part of moonkin so we need some protection more then running around and los. Ofcurse we cant both have fear redution and immunity. I think we benifits much more with the immunity. So here is my new barkskin: reduce all damage by 30% under 10s with 40s cd, under thouse 10s you also immune to any dispell and pushback. I dont know if this will be needed for the other spec but if not put this as one point imp barkskin deep in the balance tree.

Second version I had in mind of barkskin is to keep the 1min CD but have 15sec duration that means we have 45sec CD could also add +10% reduce chance to dispell with the talent Subtlety you will have 40% under thouse 15 second.

[gomi]

Purgie purge purge purgey dispell, alternatively: DK stares at you intensly -> All of that great survivability is gone while we and them move. Considering how many DKs you encounter in arenas these days, that tool is pretty much canceled out, and by far not strong enough to keep you up against even one nuking DD, not to say melee which would be more than happy if you dare to go casterstyle. But it's mostly DKs that prevent me from even attempting to hot myself, or realmpool seems flooded with them.

The CC stuff we have is cool, though not enough if you are the only CCing char (because for some setups rooting does close to nothing). Brakskin is cute, no big daysaver but okayish, but losing large chunks of armor due to the multiplicator nerf and removal of green armor leaves us well below some other cloth casters with their buffs. A large part of survival came from there, and it just went away without anything in exchange - that is my biggest point when it comes to moonkin pvp,

Purge purge purge you say well LB LB LB and the spam shaman have give you full life thank you very much.

The first thing I did when I bought wotlk was to level up a DK to 80 lot of fun ;D. No I dont see DK as anti druid at all on paper yes but not on live at least not for boomkins but that is a whole new post to deal with DKs ;D.