Judgement Question!

[treachery]

I am seeking some info on Judgements, my guild runs consist of 4 paladins 2 holy and 2 ret. My question is what judgement should we all be using and why? TY for the help

[monalin]

I would probably say that both holys should judge justice, and that the ret with highest AP should do light, and the other wisdom.

Bottom line is you want both Light and Wisdom 100% on the target. Your holy pally wont be judging all the time which is why i suggest using justice for them.

Light scales best with ret pallys because they will always have more AP and SP combined than any other spec, especially raid buffed.

The problem with light is that it overrides another light even if the one currently on the target is going to heal you for more, so make sure the one with the highest AP casts light. Either way, the difference isn't going to make or break the fight. As long as you have Wis and Light on the boss you'll be fine.

You should also know, the difference between a holy pally and a ret pally casting light is going to be around 400 or so.

[Aloysius]

The responses above are a bit confusing to me...only judgement of wisdom is affected by both SP and AP. Judgement of light is purely based on SP. The underlying damage is only affected by the underlying seal. The highest AP ret should be judging wisdom and your highest SP holy should be judging light.

[monalin]

The responses above are a bit confusing to me...only judgement of wisdom is affected by both SP and AP. Judgement of light is purely based on SP. The underlying damage is only affected by the underlying seal. The highest AP ret should be judging wisdom and your highest SP holy should be judging light.

They're confusing because you are wrong.

Light is affected by AP and SP
Wisdom is affected by base mana ( is going to be changed to a flat % of total mana in a future patch )

[Aloysius]

They're confusing because you are wrong.

Light is affected by AP and SP
Wisdom is affected by base mana ( is going to be changed to a flat % of total mana in a future patch )

http://www.wowwiki.com/Judgement_of_Wisdom

Unleashes the energy of a Seal spell to judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting melee attacks made against the judged enemy a chance of restoring [0.18 * SPH + 0.18 * AP] mana. Refer to individual Seals for additional Judgement effect. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Judgement_of_Light

Unleashes the energy of a Seal spell to judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting melee attacks made against the judged enemy a chance of healing the attacker for X. Refer to individual Seals for additional Judgement effect. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.

Judgement of Light is a new Paladin ability in Patch 3.0.2. It replaced the Judgement effect of Seal of Light. The amount healed is affected by your Spell power.

[monalin]

Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia. Remember, anyone can edit that shit its not the bible. According to that math Wisdom would result in the following.

Raid buffed i have 900 SP and 3200-3400 AP

900 * .18 + 3200 * .18 = 162 + 576 = 738

Ret pallys around 5000 ap buffed which means they have 1500 SP

1500 * .18 + 5000 *.18 = 270 + 900 = 1170

Personally i've never gotten anywhere close to 1170 mana back from a Judgment of wisdom. I think that formula is wrong.

[Aloysius]

I always take what I read with a grain of salt, but I can't find any contrary evidence to indicate that wowwiki is wrong and you're right.

Raid buffed I can get over 5K attack power so I'll test the return tonight, but 1170 doesn't seem far off.

[GT4]

JoW debuff scales with the attacker's total mana, it restores 1% - this is changed to 2% of base mana in 3.08 to make it more appealing to Rets who have no Int on their gear
JoL debuff scales with the judging Paladin's AP and spell power and currently gives the judging Paladin the heal threat - this is changed in 3.08 to no longer give the Paladin the heal threat

What does this mean?
The Paladin with the highest sum of AP and SP should judge Wisdom, usually this is Ret>Prot>Holy for obvious reasons. The other Paladins may just use JoW, you don't need JoJ for anything currently.

In case you don't believe it, ingame JoW reads like this:

Unleashes the energy of a Seal spell to judge an enemy, giving each attack a chance to restore 1% of the attacker's maximum mana.

[Aloysius]

JoW debuff scales with the attacker's total mana, it restores 1% - this is changed to 2% of base mana in 3.08 to make it more appealing to Rets who have no Int on their gear
JoL debuff scales with the judging Paladin's AP and spell power and currently gives the judging Paladin the heal threat - this is changed in 3.08 to no longer give the Paladin the heal threat

What does this mean?
The Paladin with the highest sum of AP and SP should judge Wisdom, usually this is Ret>Prot>Holy for obvious reasons. The other Paladins may just use JoW, you don't need JoJ for anything currently.

Then you mean ret should judge light. The mana return of 2% base is not much of a buff. The math has already been done by myself and others in this forum. Is there an updated tooltip or blizz post showing that light is affected by AP and not SP?

[monalin]

Then you mean ret should judge light. The mana return of 2% base is not much of a buff. The math has already been done by myself and others in this forum. Is there an updated tooltip or blizz post showing that light is affected by AP and not SP?

We've been saying that all the time.

Ret does light
Prot does wis (because it will be 100% of the time)
Holy does wis or justice (anything but light)

Like is said, as it is now Wis scales off your base mana. The reason its changing in 3.0.8 is because they want it to be a % of you're total mana. Just like mana drains will be changed to a % of total mana instead of a flat value. It was unfair for ret who only has 5-6k mana to get completely drained from viper sting in 3 ticks. Now that its changing to a % it will take just as long as draining a priest or pally or whatever.

[GT4]

We've been saying that all the time.

Ret does light
Prot does wis (because it will be 100% of the time)
Holy does wis or justice (anything but light)

Like is said, as it is now Wis scales off your base mana. The reason its changing in 3.0.8 is because they want it to be a % of you're total mana. Just like mana drains will be changed to a % of total mana instead of a flat value. It was unfair for ret who only has 5-6k mana to get completely drained from viper sting in 3 ticks. Now that its changing to a % it will take just as long as draining a priest or pally or whatever.

You've got it wrong, it's 1% of total mana currently and being changed to 2% of base mana.

[Aloysius]

Ok, so even though JoL does scale with AP, here's the thread where both sides of the argument have been hashed out (chronalis already posted here so I'l save him the trouble of repeating himself).

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=30929.0

And see GT4's response above. It's 2% base which is 4950 or so for ret.

[eodem]

Due to mechanics being bugged, JoL will not generate aggro as of 3.0.8. This due to Offtanks pulling targets of the MT, probably due to healing every DPSer (especially in 25man).

To this end when facing 3 or more paladins within 1 single raid, I always have the Protection Pala going JoW, the Retribution Pala going Light and Holy will always go Justice (being RL, Pala CL and always present Retri, I call the shots ;D). Yes JoL will help the raid with healing, but it will not be a life saver giving it to either Holy or Retri.
The reason behind JoW/JoL is simple. Aggro. I have my tanks get used to it (less threat build), before the patch hits. Also always cross judge, ie Protection 1 judgement, Retribution 1 judgement, Holy 1 judgement. Due to uptime effect, Holy will have to judge JoJ. This is due to the improved judgement in each tree, which can and will overwrite each other. For example Prot judges Light, 5 seconds after that Retri judges Light. This will cause the Prot buffed Judgement to be overwritten.

As a reply to the OP, ofcourse as off 3.0.8:
Retri A: JoL (the one that's always higher on the Threatmeter)
Retri B: JoW
Holy A+B: JoJ when they see fit

[Sephirote]

Why asking to your retadin to drop the JoL when the JoL of the holy pally is buff???

[iktankniet]

Why asking to your retadin to drop the JoL when the JoL of the holy pally is buff???

because AP scales better with JoL then Spell power. so JoL gives bigger heals when its used by retridins

[eodem]

Agreed with above Dutchmen.

There is no way that a Holy Paladin would come close to 3k Spellpower. A retri paladin can easily attain that number.