New Killing Machine and Weapon Haste

[Sogi]

So the new Killing Machine has a higher chance to proc on slower weapons, and a lower chance to proc off faster weapons. Would weapon haste be factored into this calculation? Say you have 2.5 speed weapon and Imp. Icy Talons procs increasing your attack speed by 20%. Does KM have a less likely chance to proc now?

[Stieger23]

That's really not an important question, if you understand how the new KM system works.

You are hard capped at 5 procs per minute, we know this.

Scenario 1: haste doesn't lower your probability of procs.

Effect: You will proc all 5 of your KMs earlier in the minute window and not proc any later in the hidden internal cool down window.

When this might be important: Trash or any fight typically lasting less than 1 minute followed by down-time.

Scenario 2: haste reduces your probability of procs

If your proc probability is re-normed for post-haste speed you will still usually proc 5 times a minute.

Solution: Who cares? You get 5 ppm either way. Maybe if the procs aren't re-normed you would have fewer instances of getting less than the maximum number of procs in a 1-minute window, but probably not. Don't take Imp. Icy Talons just for a fraction of 1 extra KM proc per minute.

[Sogi]

Yep ty. Just curious.

[Raptorg]

Haste does not affect Killing Machine's chance to proc..

Which means any form of haste will lead into an increase in PPM.

[rabbimojo]

Err.. Sogi just -said- wat PPM is.

A slow weapon, say 3.0s, swings 20 times. Suppose 1 ppm, then there's a 5% chance on any given swing for a proc, or thereabouts.

A faster weapon, say a 1.5s, swings 40 times. Supposing again 1 ppm, there's a 2.5% chance on any given swing for a proc.

The only question is whether %-to-proc is calculated before or after haste.

And what do you mean, Stieger23, by "capped at 5 procs"? I haven't been following KM, but I've never heard of a ppm mechanic that's actually capped..

[Raptorg]

Err.. Sogi just -said- wat PPM is.

A slow weapon, say 3.0s, swings 20 times. Suppose 1 ppm, then there's a 5% chance on any given swing for a proc, or thereabouts.

A faster weapon, say a 1.5s, swings 40 times. Supposing again 1 ppm, there's a 2.5% chance on any given swing for a proc.

The only question is whether %-to-proc is calculated before or after haste.

And what do you mean, Stieger23, by "capped at 5 procs"? I haven't been following KM, but I've never heard of a ppm mechanic that's actually capped..

There's no cap.
I've seen it proc a billion times per minute(exaggeration)..

It's just random..

At times I proc it once or twice per 10 second rotation.

At other times I don't proc it once in three 10 second rotations.

There's no rule that states "you will have 5 procs per minute, 100% sure of it"..

You can have more, or less of them.

[Stieger23]

NO

It's now PPM, it will proc the same number of times per minute no matter what your weapon speed is.

uh, so what exactly do you think PPM means?

Proc Per Minute is a cap. If weapon speed didn't impact the CHANCE of getting a proc then faster weapons would get all the procs in the first 20 or 30 seconds. I haven't heard anyone talking about this, so I assume that's not the case.

So, I'm sorry to say that

So the new Killing Machine has a higher chance to proc on slower weapons, and a lower chance to proc off faster weapons.

is a totally accuate description of how weapon speed and proc chance are related.

2 fast weapons, (1.5 attack speed) will swing 80 times a minute

1 slow weapon (3.3 attack speed) will swing 18.18 times per minute.

In order to average 5 procs per minute with 2 fast weapons the chance to proc must be 6.25%.
In order to get 5 procs per minute with 1 slow weapon the chance to proc must be 27.5%.

In fact, the chance to proc is probably set higher than that based on the variance of the proc rate to give a pre-set % chance to reach the 5 proc cap.

[Stieger23]

There's no cap.
I've seen it proc a billion times per minute(exaggeration)..

It's just random..

At times I proc it once or twice per 10 second rotation.

At other times I don't proc it once in three 10 second rotations.

There's no rule that states "you will have 5 procs per minute, 100% sure of it"..

You can have more, or less of them.

You're right about it being random and not having a guarantee of getting 5... but you're dead wrong about the cap. Sorry, blue + testing says you're wrong.

[Raptorg]

Ok, then explain why the enchant, crusader.. which has 1 PPM, occasionally procs twice in a row, in some cases even 3?

There
Is
No
Cap
On
PPM.

[Stieger23]

please give me a link to that bluepost then because PPM is ONLY a calculation to get the % procc chance, not a cap

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...pageNo=1&sid=1

scroll down to GC.

You may be right that there isn't a "hard cap" but it is a rate with a distribution N~(5,s) such that you won't see "a billion" procs as you describe.

[darkwarrior42]

Go ask Ret paladins if "PPM" means there's a cap on how many times seal of command can proc in a minute.

[Ormus]

You're right about it being random and not having a guarantee of getting 5... but you're dead wrong about the cap. Sorry, blue + testing says you're wrong.

You are wrong. Any enhancement shaman will tell you that PPM is a % chance, not a hard number.

PPM is based on percent chance to proc multiplied by weapon speed. You could theoretically get a proc on every swing, but over large scale time, it will even out to 5 PPM. In short periods you could see wildly different numbers.



With Windfury weapon imbue, haste actually improves your chance at proccing since the haste is not factored into the PPM chance. If you have 2% chance to proc with your normal weapon speed, hasting it to havlf speed will give you twice as many wings, each with a 2% proc chance. I do not see any reason for them to make KM work differently.

[b37x]

Go ask Ret paladins if "PPM" means there's a cap on how many times seal of command can proc in a minute.

There isn't.

* The PPM mechanic stands for Procs Per Minute and is a static value Blizzard has introduced to calculate the chance of Seal of Command proccing using the following calculation;

Seal of Command proc chance = PPM / (60 / Editre-haste weapon speed).

The PPM value for Seal of Command is 7.

Some examples;

7 / (60 / 3.60) = 0,42001680067202688107524300972039 = 42.00% proc chance.

7 / (60 / 3.80) = 0,44334663373234530369244410665653 = 44.33% proc chance.

A very common misconception is that the PPM value will guarantee or even limit the amount of procs Seal of Command can have per minute but this is not the case. Each weapon attack has a chance to proc Seal of Command without any limitation.

Caveat: SoC has an internal cooldown of 1second, so it won't proc off an auto-attack and then again off a Crusader Strike .5 seconds later. I do not know of KM is limited in a similar fashion.

Edit: Apologies that I didn't catch this. Rawberry posted that before testing revealed that the chance to proc is based off of unhasted weapon speed. As you add haste, the proc chance stays the same while the number of chances you have to see a proc goes up.

[Raikaga]

You are wrong. Any enhancement shaman will tell you that PPM is a % chance, not a hard number.

PPM is based on percent chance to proc multiplied by weapon speed. You could theoretically get a proc on every swing, but over large scale time, it will even out to 5 PPM. In short periods you could see wildly different numbers.



With Windfury weapon imbue, haste actually improves your chance at proccing since the haste is not factored into the PPM chance. If you have 2% chance to proc with your normal weapon speed, hasting it to havlf speed will give you twice as many wings, each with a 2% proc chance. I do not see any reason for them to make KM work differently.

Windfury isn't PPM...

[Raptorg]

Windfury isn't PPM...

That's right, it's a 20% proc regardless of weaponspeed.

[LrdPhoenix]

There is no cap on how many times a PPM power can proc in a minute, unless there is some internal cooldown which specifically prevents it from potentially proccing higher than the PPM.

PPM simply means that the chance to proc changes based on weapon speed in such a way that the average number of procs per minute is the same regardless of weapon speed.

Of course, that means that it still winds up being based off luck, hence why Seal of Command has been called Seal of Casino for a long while. It is entirely possible to proc every time you hit for a minute, or to not proc at all for a full minute, though the chances of both are very slim.

That makes your question come down to whether or not swing speed is factored into proc chance before or after Haste is applied. I do believe it's factored in before Haste is applied, which means that you have the PPM of your base weapon speed, and that as haste is added on you swing more often but your chance to proc remains at the higher chance of the slower base speed.

[psicorp]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...pageNo=1&sid=1

scroll down to GC.

You may be right that there isn't a "hard cap" but it is a rate with a distribution N~(5,s) such that you won't see "a billion" procs as you describe.

i am sorry mate, but i do believe you are misreading the post. GC appears to be reffering to normalising procs with weapon speed, not in anyway with weapon haste, which are two completely seperate mechanics. further, stating all PPM mechanics are hard capped is just plain wrong, consider mongoose, or rune of the dark crusader. i think we have all had that crazy proc fight where it procced almost every swing and stayed up for 45 seconds or longer. its rare, but it happens, and serves to prove there is no hard cap. now whether or not KM fixes itself to base weapon speed is still to be determined, but your original point stated that it did not matter, and that is simply not accuurate

[KaynDarksbane]

The totem is not, the weapon imbue is.

PPM refers to the normalization of the chance to proc based on weapon speed.  The windfury weapon imbue has a set percentage regardless of speed and so is not a PPM mechanics.

Example:

A shaman has windfury on two weapons, a 3.0 speed fist weapon and 1.0 speed dagger.  He has a 20% chance to proc WF with either weapon.  Ignoring the WF internal cooldown, each weapon will proc WF, on average:

60/3.0 = 20 hits per minute
15 * 0.2 = 4 PPM with the fist weapon

60/1.0 = 60 hits per minute
60 * 0.2 = 12 PPM with the dagger

This is an example of a Flat Percentage to proc.  Now, for PPM:

If an ability has a 5 PPM, the percent is adjusted for your weapon speed.  Let's talk about Killing Machine.  At full points, KM has a 5 PPM.  Let's say you have the same two weapons as the previous test (and can equip them, lol).

Since your skill is set to proc 5 times per minute, you can find the percentage chance of each hit to proc the ability.

60/5 = 12.  1 proc per 12 seconds, approximately.
3.0/12 = 0.25, or a 25% chance to proc with the 3.0 speed weapon.
1.0/12 = 0.083, or an 8.3% chance to proc with the 1.0 speed weapon.

The PPM mechanic is not constrained by an internal cooldown, but a normalized percent chance.

With most classes, a PPM ability/enchant favors slower weapons as they retain their higher percentage chance even on instant attacks.  This does not work for Killing Machine, however, because it only procs off of white attacks.

I believe that haste scales with KM's PPM mechanic.  As you gain haste, your weapon speed goes down; this reduction in speed is not calculated in with your percent chance to hit.  You will have the same percentage chance per hit as before, but you will be hitting more often.  So a haste increase will net you more KM procs per minute.

These are the accepted general PPM mechanics.  If KM is built differently, I would like to know.

[Ormus]

PPM refers to the normalization of the chance to proc based on weapon speed. The windfury weapon imbue has a set percentage regardless of speed and so is not a PPM mechanics.

Yes, I realized after I posted that I was wrong. It is a set percentage. I actually knew that, I suppose I should not post before having more coffee.

[Parietis]

With most classes, a PPM ability/enchant favors slower weapons as they retain their higher percentage chance even on instant attacks.  This does not work for Killing Machine, however, because it only procs off of white attacks.

Are you sure about this? It used to only proc off of auto-attacks, but since the patch the tooltip reads,

Your melee attacks have a chance to make your next Icy Touch, Howling Blast, or Frost Strike a critical strike.

I'm not at home right now, and haven't specced into it lately so I don't know from experience how its working now.