Spellpower > Hit

[Enthorn]

The problem with what I have seen in this discussion so far is that nobody has factored in that +hit directly affects the chance to crit. Hit is calculatated first, followed by crit....so if you are missing 15% hit for example your crit is multiplied by 85% before the system rolls to figure for a critical spell. This is not the same for melee, but it is definitely this way for casters.

Not being close to hit cap can be very costly as you will both crit less (therefore missing crit bonus dmg that would have otherwise occured) and you will directly lose dps by every percent hit you are missing (I would estimate a good 20% overall DPS lost just considering this alone with 0 hit).

You are so utterly, completely wrong, it's hilarious. God, there's so many people who don't even understand the very game they spend hours playing every day. Your hit rating is independent of your crit rating, and vice versa. They have no implications on each other. Your chance to hit has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on both your chance to crit (save for the fact that if you miss, you can't possibly crit), nor does it have anything to do with your damage. It is not multipled. I have no idea where you came up with these bullshit numbers, but it's entirely inaccurate.

There are two rolls. The first roll sees whether your spell hits or misses, based on your hit rate. If it does hit, there is a second roll, which determines whether your spell crits or is a non-crit, based on your crit rating. The two at no point intersect.

After the game determines that you've crit, based on your crit rating, the damage you do has absolutely nothing to do with your hit rating. It is not "reduced." I don't know how the hell you came up with this conclusions, but it's insanely wrong.

[Nirual]

I hate it when people try to put stats in direct competition when there is a notable synergy. You need to reach the hitcap for spellpower to reach its full potential (aswell as crit, any spell that misses is a wasted chance to crit). It's not rocket science. Instead of trying to figure out which stat is "better", you should be evalutating your current stats and which stat would be better to build up with your next choice (enchant, gem, whatever).

Since hit has a well-defined cap, it pretty much boils down to "do I need that hit to be capped or not" or in borderline cases "is it worth taking that 16 hit when I need just 2 more to cap or should I take 19 sp instead".

[Deleted]

The thing is you are comparing 19 sp to 16 hit.
When trying to value stats, get a relationship for 1 to 1 so that you can make use fo it for gear, enchants, gem and all the rest.

As a matter of fact, even with your math, 1 hit rating is always better than 1 sp.

[Nirual]

The thing is you are comparing 19 sp to 16 hit.

Thats the relation between gems for each, and presumably for item budgets in general.

[Enthorn]

@Enthorn: Rolling twice, once for hit and once for crit results in a total crit-chance that equals HIT*CRIT, thus he was not entirely wrong, but put it into bad words. It was not totally right, but no need to rant that hard.

Go read what he said again. He said that if you have an 83% chance to hit (that would be against a level 83 'boss' with 0 hit, since you need 17% hit vs a +3 level mob), then your crits will do only 83% of their damage.

Yes, it does require ranting that hard, because it's misleading to everyone who actually reads that and then spreads it around as fact. It's unbelievably wrong information. This is neither here nor there. He was talking about the damage of your spell being less based on your spell hit. There is an entirely different group of people who believe that hit rating affects your crit rating via a 3 roll system (roll to see if your spell hits or misses, second roll to see if it crits or non-crits, if it does crit, a third roll to see if your crit hits or misses). That is also wrong information. It's a 2 roll system for all casters.

And the 'less damage' part is just asinine.

[Surfd]

Perhaps a more simple way to explain this is:
Lets say you have one spell that hits for 1000 with a 50% chance to hit and a second spell with a 100% chance to hit that only hits for 500. So lets try casting each of these spells 10 times. On average the first spell will hit only 5 times at 1000 each for 5000 total damage. The second spell will hit 10 times at 500 each and also hit for 5000 total damage. This point is: just being hit capped won't guarantee that you do more damage.

If you knew anything at all about statistics, you would know this is a BAD example to use. How many boss fights in the game actually last long enough for a statistical model like the one you just used to properly flatten out at a 50% chance to hit?

In reality, during a typical boss fight, you would likely see long strings where misses were more common or long strings where hits were more common. Anyone who has ever done basic statistics with coin flipping in math class could tell you this.

Also, as mentioned before, lets add in that both spells also have a 50% crit chance. your spell with a 50% miss chance, also has an EFFECTIVE crit chance of only 25%, because half the time, it is going to be missing.

In the end, intelligent math will show that only when you have VERY low spellpower numbers, will SP be > Hit. In every case, having 99% chance to hit, vs 100% chance to hit, that extra 10 spellpower over 99 hits, is going to be LESS damage than successfully landing that 100th hit for full damage.

[Surfd]

Actually going through MaxDPS.com I notice that it actually hit over spellpower for 2000 sp/151(1% miss) hit at about 1.4x times. For 9% total miss its around 1.5x times. (this is in gem terms, 19 sp vs 16 hit)

God i hate maxdps.....

151 hit for moonkin is closer to 4% miss, not 1%.

do a bit of research please. Maxdps hit value numbers are WRONG. Some idiot over there is still using level 70 values for +hit calculations. *check the hit tables listed on wowwiki.

170 hit does NOT hitcap you as a moonkin. Not even close.

hit cap for talented (BoP + IFF) moonkin (without a space goat in party) is 268, NOT 170.

[Surfd]

Go read what he said again. He said that if you have an 83% chance to hit (that would be against a level 83 'boss' with 0 hit, since you need 17% hit vs a +3 level mob), then your crits will do only 83% of their damage.

Yes, it does require ranting that hard, because it's misleading to everyone who actually reads that and then spreads it around as fact. It's unbelievably wrong information. This is neither here nor there. He was talking about the damage of your spell being less based on your spell hit. There is an entirely different group of people who believe that hit rating affects your crit rating via a 3 roll system (roll to see if your spell hits or misses, second roll to see if it crits or non-crits, if it does crit, a third roll to see if your crit hits or misses). That is also wrong information. It's a 2 roll system for all casters.

And the 'less damage' part is just asinine.

Actually, his information is not "unbelievably wrong" as you so quaintly put it, as I instantly understood exactly what he was trying to say. Rather, the problem was, he missed TWO LITTLE WORDS in his statement and you went all rage guy on him.Hell, if you are soo freaking well versed on the subject, the fact that he actually used the words "chance to crit" in his first sentence should have been a dead giveaway. He meant to say:

The problem with what I have seen in this discussion so far is that nobody has factored in that +hit directly affects the chance to crit. Hit is calculatated first, followed by crit....so if you are missing 15% hit for example your Effective crit chance is multiplied by 85% before the system rolls to figure for a critical spell. This is not the same for melee, but it is definitely this way for casters.

This is what he was specifically trying to state (directly from wowwiki page on spell hit).

The effect of Hit chance on Critical Hit chance

Unlike the melee combat system, spell crit makes absolutely no difference to hit chance. All spells, regardless of whether they are treated as binary or not, roll hit and crit separately. Conceptually, the game rolls for your hit chance first, and if the spell hits you have a separate roll for whether it crits.

Overall chance to crit over all spells cast is thus affected by hit rate. To calculate overall crit rate, multiplying the two chances together:

crit rate over all spell casts = crit * hit

For example, a caster with no spell hit rating gear or talents, against a mob 3 levels higher (83% hit chance), and 30% crit rating from gear and talents:

crit rate over all spell casts = 30% * 83% = 24.9%

In addition, direct damage spells suffer from partial resistance, but again, that has no effect on whether a spell hits or not.

[Bakis]

Perhaps a more simple way to explain this is:
Lets say you have one spell that hits for 1000 with a 50% chance to hit and a second spell with a 100% chance to hit that only hits for 500. So lets try casting each of these spells 10 times. On average the first spell will hit only 5 times at 1000 each for 5000 total damage. The second spell will hit 10 times at 500 each and also hit for 5000 total damage. This point is: just being hit capped won't guarantee that you do more damage.

On the other hand those 10 hits with less damage will benefitt from procs no? ..

[fattyboomkin]

Ok,i have used to play boomkin so far.I have about 6.30% hit rating,which is low.Another 4% from balance of power=10%,another 3% from IFF=13%,another 3% from spriest' buff=16.Finally,if u are alliance as me,anotehr 1% from goat.Thats what im doing,so im capped on raids.

On the other hand,you are right that Sp is really useful,also its not actually very needed to be hitc apped since now,have about 12-13% is fine.

Apart from that,dont forget that there is also critic,without critic u are loser.I wouldnt sacrifice hit and critic for sp,except if it was a HUGE difference.About all that haste that is on items,i will not comment since i personally do not really care for haste.I hope you get the point anyway :P

[Surfd]

Ok,i have used to play boomkin so far.I have about 6.30% hit rating,which is low.Another 4% from balance of power=10%,another 3% from IFF=13%,another 3% from spriest' buff=16.Finally,if u are alliance as me,anotehr 1% from goat.Thats what im doing,so im capped on raids.

No your not.

Misery and IFF don't stack.

[fattyboomkin]

No your not.

Misery and IFF don't stack.

Im not really about that dude,i have seen many posts and threads that they actually do stuck,well every1 can post actually,but i know i need more hit and i will get more,dont also forget that u dont have to be capped from now,i still believe that around 14-15% is good

[fattyboomkin]

No your not.

Misery and IFF don't stack.

Im not really about that dude,i have seen many posts and threads that they actually do stuck,well every1 can post actually,but i know i need more hit and i will get more,dont also forget that u dont have to be capped from now,i still believe that around 14-15% is good

[Surfd]

Im not really about that dude,i have seen many posts and threads that they actually do stuck,well every1 can post actually,but i know i need more hit and i will get more,dont also forget that u dont have to be capped from now,i still believe that around 14-15% is good

Ever since blizzard made their balance pass on raid buffs, they no longer stack. They might have stacked back in the old days, but they no longer do.

Also, 15% hit is still 2% miss on raid bosses. If you are not hit capped on raid bosses, you are basicly throwing away dps.

[Morganskunk]

Oomkins need a min of

262 hit; with 3/3 fairy fire and a spriest in raid to get max hit cap.

Its that simple! I would not skimp on this; as druids are wrath spammers to get Eclipse to proc and then just spam moonfire and starfall hehe. Dont forget old insect swarm also.

[Surfd]

Oomkins need a min of

262 hit; with 3/3 fairy fire and a spriest in raid to get max hit cap.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!

Please, for the love of god, STOP FAILING.

Misery and Imp FF DO NOT STACK.

[Nirual]

He's probably thinking of Balance of Power, which is 4% spell hit for the druid. Then 3% from Misery or IFF, which leaves us at 10%.

The remaining amount of hit rating required to cap is 263. Alliance can get less if they regularly have a draenei in their group.

[Surfd]

considering that he said that we spam wrath to get eclipse procs, and then spam moonfire and starfall o.0, i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that he actually meant IFF and Misery.

[Saelind]

I just wish people just stop trying to look smarter than others.. reading all these false statments coming from people that have no clue what they are talking about is just so painfull..


Do us all a favor and don't post before checking the information you will prophetise in at least three different sources.

To the OP: Scissors are stronger than stone if you decide to remove stone from the game. That's exactly what you are saying.

There's nothing wrong with your math. It's the case itself that fails. An unaplicable experiment means nothing as it is.. unaplicable.. You're like that guy stating that trampoline is much more easier on a space station

[Pyrostemplar]

Hit is a cheap and important spec. But I guess that due to all TBC insistence on "get hit you nab!" people are making it more than it actually is. Hit may not always be the best per point stat even below the cap for all casters (no idea about druids).

Question is that at normal crit and Spell power levels it is.