Priest vs Paladin grouphealing after patches.

[nobodysbaby]

Hola! I posted this first in priest thread, since I am playing that class since BC started, but I am also interested of paladins point of view.

As 1 of the reasons bliz choose to nerf CoH was that it was too powerful and shamans (who according bliz should top mtrs, spam chainheals is their thing) got too far behind priests and druids in grouphealing. OK! I can agree CoH was a bit too powerful. And I like to use the many spells priests have, even though many of them sucks atm. (Still waiting to see some smart changes here).

I have been holy priest almost since BC start and raiding as both RL and GM in same guild as I am in now.

I tried to accept this nerf, considering it would be great if grouphealers would be more even in charts, and not 1 class OP, like shamans were not long ago, and other classes felt useless.

But when i saw the latest WWS numbers for bosses like Sapphiron where theres a lot of raid damage, PALADINS were in top, by spamming HL and get free, passive grouphealing through glyphs and judgement (some are almost as powerful as priests CoH)! And this by just spamming 1 spell... They outhealed both priest and shamans in grouphealing?! I want an explanation to this. How can you Blizzard let this happen, when you said priest were too powerful and healed too much by 1 button spamming? Now we use 4-5-6 spells, we really work hard to do good healing, and get overrun by tankhealer spam? Yes... I'm QQ'ing, i really loosing my faith for developers when I see this...

Paladins, what are your thoughts when you read this?

[xCyniCx]

I want an explanation to this. How can you Blizzard let this happen, when you said priest were too powerful and healed too much by 1 button spamming?

Paladins, what are your thoughts when you read this?

I think MMO is the wrong site if you ask a question to Blizzard.

Actually, I do not get your point. Paladins are situationally awesome (8k+ HPS on Razuvious), that's all. When everyone eats tons of damage, sure, Glyph of Holy Light is nice.

Would you please explain which spell you propose Paladins to use? There is only one effective healing spell, and this is - surprise, surprise - Holy Light.

You have a buttload of different spells for different situations while Paladins are forced to stick with one. Be happy to have such a variety and to have the ability to choose.

[shyara]

I think MMO is the wrong site if you ask a question to Blizzard.

Actually, I do not get your point. Paladins are situationally awesome (8k+ HPS on Razuvious), that's all. When everyone eats tons of damage, sure, Glyph of Holy Light is nice.

Would you please explain which spell you propose Paladins to use? There is only one effective healing spell, and this is - surprise, surprise - Holy Light.

You have a buttload of different spells for different situations while Paladins are forced to stick with one. Be happy to have such a variety and to have the ability to choose.

Exactly what I was going to say. Not to mention that on other fights, we're not really going to be getting the "splash" effect. It all works, ONLY if there is someone within 8 yards of my heal target. If they're not... well then I'm SOL, and I have to rely on the other healers to do their job, which they do incredibly.

Don't try to call paladins a "group healer." Ours works situationaly, and is random. I can not be sure that the one particular heal one specific rogue needs, or he will die will land. I don't know that. It may, or may not, and depending on the fight that may wipe us. (no, not content these days, but you know what I mean)

[nobodysbaby]

You know, giving paladins a non-passive groupheal spell would feel a lot better, not a bad idea But for palas to heal such huge amounts on groups (without lifting an extra finger and at no mana cost) that they even sometimes outheals the grouphealers, are wrong-wrong-wrong

[shyara]

You know, giving paladins a non-passive groupheal spell would feel a lot better, not a bad idea But for palas to heal such huge amounts on groups (without lifting an extra finger and at no mana cost) that they even sometimes outheals the grouphealers, are wrong-wrong-wrong

did you even read my post? FFS, you're just a damn troll.

[nobodysbaby]

did you even read my post? FFS, you're just a damn troll.

Nope, I read Cynics post

[xCyniCx]

You know, giving paladins a non-passive groupheal spell would feel a lot better, not a bad idea

I would hate to see Paladins having an active group heal. There have to be differences between the healing classes.

But for palas to heal such huge amounts on groups (without lifting an extra finger and at no mana cost) that they even sometimes outheals the grouphealers, are wrong-wrong-wrong

One question. What is a good healer?

a.) the one who is first in Healing done with thousands of HPS or
b.) the one who keeps his respective target / targets alive?

[nobodysbaby]

I would hate to see Paladins having an active group heal. There have to be differences between the healing classes.

Actually, I hate the idea Blizzard have that all classes should be "same". No, paladins shouldn't heal group, yet they do?

One question. What is a good healer?

a.) the one who is first in Healing done with thousands of HPS or
b.) the one who keeps his respective target / targets alive?

The one who keeps their targets alive.

[xCyniCx]

I can't avoid the feeling that you're just trolling.

Paladins do not have any group heal like Circle of Healing, Prayer of Healing, Holy Nova, Chain Heal or Wild Growth.
Paladins have a f...ing glyph which can procc a little healing on raid members close enough to the healed target.

There is no sense in a Priest complaining about a Paladins healing... it's pretty rediculous.

Apart from you feeling sad not to be first in healing done, there is nothing you have told us yet. Let me give you some advice: Dump Recount. You don't need it anyways if your answer to my question is really b.)

[tommy0guns]

lol. my Ret pally can outheal you on raid dmg.
-Judgement of Light
-Divine Storm

#1 in overhealing FTW!


L2 PW:Shield and PoM.

[Majokin]

oh yeah! plx remove HL glyph and give us a reactive shield + hots + active SMART-grpheal...go away damn troll!

[Firecrest]

My guess is that the OP doesn't understand the way HL glyph works.

The HL glyph splashes to five random targets within 8 yards of the directly cast HL.

It does not:
- Smart heal. It will not splash to the most damaged people. The guys at 100% health have just as much chance to be hit by it as the guy with 1 hp. Not only that, but it will happily splash onto pets that never need a heal as well. Even crap like Spirit Wolves or Water Elementals will soak up the spalsh from this.
- Put up big numbers. Average splashes are for about 1k with crits of a little over 2k. It's definitely not keeping anyone alive by itself.
- Reach very far. 8 yards is a pittance. On may bosses, 8 yards is not even enough range to land on the melee behind the boss when we're healing the tank in front (our usual assignment).

In order for the HL glyph to shine, two criteria must be met. First you need to have a good number of people stacked closely together. Preferably they need to be stacked close to the Tank (as this is who we're normally healing) or they need to be close to someone who is taking enough damage to warrant a HL over a FoL. Second, there needs to be a constant source of raidwide damage. And that damage needs to be spread to everyone in the raid. If just a couple people take the damage, there's a good chance that the splash will miss them and randomly pick healthy people. Everyone needs to be stacked and everyone needs to be taking damage. Without both of these key factors, HL glyph does little or nothing at all.

Thaddius is a good example of the kind of stacking that is needed for this glyph to be good. The whole raid is essentially stacked into two groups. However, there is not really a whole lot of continuous raid damage for the glyph to heal so most of it just goes to overheal.

Saph really also only provides one of these two needed elements. Her aura is a perfect example of the kind of raid damage this glyph loves. However, the second part is not there. There is very little real stacking going on in this fight. In fact, most people spend a good portion of it purposely spreading out. There is some stacking though (melee behind Saph, people behind Iceblocks) so this fight is currently the best use of the glyph - but even here, it will account for less than 15% of my overall healing.

The WWSs that you saw that made you concerned were probably from right after 3.0.8 when this glyph still had a 20 yard splash range. Even many Pallies (myself included) said this was way too much and the nerf that came to it was inevitable. Here is a direct link to my healing on my guild's last Saph attempt. Note that I came in second in healing on this fight with only 14% of my healing done by the glyph. The much better "raid heal" in this case was my Judgement of Light (since it only asks that people take damage and hit the boss and couldn't care less where they stand), but even that was only 23% of my healing. The vast majority of my healing still came from good old Holy Lights landing squarely on the tank.

So the bottom line is that all is still right in the world. Pallies are not, nor will they ever be, better AoE healers than Priests in general. If ever there is a fight that meets the two criteria explained above, then yes... We will out raid heal you. But the circumstances for this are limited at best.

[tehealadin]

Hola! I posted this first in priest thread, since I am playing that class since BC started, but I am also interested of paladins point of view.

As 1 of the reasons bliz choose to nerf CoH was that it was too powerful and shamans (who according bliz should top mtrs, spam chainheals is their thing) got too far behind priests and druids in grouphealing. OK! I can agree CoH was a bit too powerful. And I like to use the many spells priests have, even though many of them sucks atm. (Still waiting to see some smart changes here).

I have been holy priest almost since BC start and raiding as both RL and GM in same guild as I am in now.

I tried to accept this nerf, considering it would be great if grouphealers would be more even in charts, and not 1 class OP, like shamans were not long ago, and other classes felt useless.

But when i saw the latest WWS numbers for bosses like Sapphiron where theres a lot of raid damage, PALADINS were in top, by spamming HL and get free, passive grouphealing through glyphs and judgement (some are almost as powerful as priests CoH)! And this by just spamming 1 spell... They outhealed both priest and shamans in grouphealing?! I want an explanation to this. How can you Blizzard let this happen, when you said priest were too powerful and healed too much by 1 button spamming? Now we use 4-5-6 spells, we really work hard to do good healing, and get overrun by tankhealer spam? Yes... I'm QQ'ing, i really loosing my faith for developers when I see this...

Paladins, what are your thoughts when you read this?

Aaww, someone out healed you, so nerf the class till you are back on top.

HL spam is no real substitute for a proper AE heal. With haste, we can use it to good effect for group healing, but it is limited and when the heat is on, a proper AE heal will always be superior. We have few tools and they are almost all focused on single target healing, haste itemization/judgements mean we can group heal much better than we used to (I used to despise big AE fights, FoL had the speed but often not the power, HL had the power but lacked the speed and was too costly).

Holy light is a brilliant spell, but it is no substitute for an AE heal when it comes to a heavy AE fight. If someone out healing you is annoying you so much, then I think you need to sort yourself out. I would not want to raid with you, and if I was leading a raid you were in, I would probably kick you and not let you come for having such an ego centric, selfish attitude.

As someone said, the good healers are the ones who keep their targets alive. So long as they keep up the people they are charged with healing, then they are doing their jobs and those are the healers people want with them, not ones who only care about meters and cry if they don't top them.

I remember my one and only trip to SWP. We had mostly paladin healers with 1 shammy/1 druid and 1 priest. Those 3 pumped out much, much more healing than the pallies. Did it make them any better healers? No. When raid healing your focus has to be on keeping people alive, not numbers, if you keep them alive then your numbers are good enough.

[lumnights]

The OP explained their understanding of the efficacy of Glyph of Holy Light exactly the way that someone who has never used it would.

While useful, it's by no means creates an "oh don't worry, the holy light splash will get them" situation.

It's easy to see how priests can feel like HL and the glyph is too good, but the ones who have healed on their paladins won't.

[Blooddeity]

OMG you posted the same useless post... twice!! I think that you need to be given a time-out before you spam all the forums with making new topics with your QQ!!

[Lustant]

He's just mad that another class can use 1 button to heal, and his old "oven mits, blindfold, everything bound to CoH" trick doesn't work anymore. What he doesn't realize, is that unlike pre-nerf CoH priests, pallys really use more than 1 button. Just one button a helluva lot more than the others... because it's our bread and butter :|

Are you mad at druids for ALWAYS STACKING LIFEBLOOM THOSE ASSHOLES!?! What about Shamans and their Chain Heal!!!? Oh noes!

We all use different abilities, priests until 3.0.8 truly didn't have to use but one key, and not only did you get by, you were UBER EFFECTIVE and it was your best thing to do.

Yes pallys have throughput up the bum, no we aren't better raid healers than a Shammy, Druid, or Priest. We just over heal faces off, that's all. With the occasional splash, sacred shield, judgement, beacon... YOU KNOW... Those things we never use.

[Sanguissa]

Maybe you could just redirect us to that priest topic, when i actually posted, but not everyone saw it.

Its paladin. I can overheal priest using circle (in healing meters, but that seriously only one things what matter in phaze 1-2) on malygos. And thats big deal. If are priests better aoe healers paladin should never be able to overheal it, however its really not hard.

[thoukaia]

There was a blue by GC (i think) which i cant find now but i remember what it said:

"Healers are diverse. You cannot achieve perfect healing if you stack one type of healer in your raid. If you bring 5 holy pallies, your tank healing will be good but your raid healing will fail. If you bring 5 druids, your raid healing will be good but your tank healing will suffer. If you bring 5 holy priests or 5 resto shammies you will do average on both. As you can see, you need a variety of healers in order to have effective healing" - or something like this.

i'm either missing something, or GC hasnt heard about Glyph of Holy Light... the healadins are by far the most OP healers in term of raid healing. You dont need priests, druids or shamans to heal, these should better spec DPS, they dont need to spec healer for fort, gotw and heroism anyway... just stack 5 holy paladins who know their class and its guaranteed noone will die.

[Arandith]

i'm either missing something, or GC hasnt heard about Glyph of Holy Light... the healadins are by far the most OP healers in term of raid healing. You dont need priests, druids or shamans to heal, these should better spec DPS, they dont need to spec healer for fort, gotw and heroism anyway... just stack 5 holy paladins who know their class and its guaranteed noone will die.

And when you bring 5 Priests it'll cleary be a complete Wipe-fest.

[tehealadin]

Dear god lol. This is the most pathetic QQing I have seen in a long time.

Hey guys, have you not just asked in raid chat if the other healers could not heal until you think you have a big enough lead? Because soothing your ego is clearly the most important thing for the raid. Sure, not doing this could result in killing stuff, but it is a hollow acheivement...since you weren't top of the meters...