Holy Paladin/Ret Paladin Changes.

[Divinestorm]

I was amazed at the fact Blizzard actually decided to give us Exorcism as a default attack, but this also brought up a giant problem with the Balance of the Paladins tree's. As playing a Holy Paladin in BC it is great to see the tree being improved substantially.

But one major problem is happening under everybody's noses.

The retribution tree is falling behind, once again.

Ret has never been a triumphant tree, and it has never been widely used. But holy is gaining laps around the Ret tree while Retribution is not improved in any way.

The amount of Holy/DK team's is making me sick to the stomach.

While they buff Dk's, Mages and Holy Paladin's. They're leaving broken classes in the dust. Warlock being a big one. The Holy tree is fine as it is imo, and these changes in the tree are jsut going to cause more Paladins to reroll Holy.

Retribution is fine l2p right...wrong. It's not Retribution that is broken it's the mechanics that are destroyed. A Paladin's damage is based on cool down burst, sustainable damage is not one of our better abilities.

I expect to get replies like, Be glad WE'RE getting buffs. But in all honesty blizzard isn't multi-tasking and taking care of problems at hand, they are improving old problems while new one's occur. I am also aware of the Exorcism change, although this pushes ret burst up, it also add's another ability Holy Paladin's can use with their DK partners.

Does anybody agree with me on this topic, constructive text please.

[iktankniet]

are you talking pve or pvp?

pvp-wise:
i can see the exorcism being overpowered for ret paladins. HoJ -> judgement(crit) CS and DS then when some1 is trying to heal -> exorcism (interupting) then another judgement = dead.

i dont like the skill twisted around(like i said in every other topic that was created) but pve dps or ret paladins wont drop (too much) this way.

[Deleted]

are you talking pve or pvp?

pvp-wise:
i can see the exorcism being overpowered for ret paladins. HoJ -> judgement(crit) CS and DS then when some1 is trying to heal -> exorcism (interupting) then another judgement = dead.

i dont like the skill twisted around(like i said in every other topic that was created) but pve dps or ret paladins wont drop (too much) this way.

No i disagree, you cant burst anybody down like that anymore, was in arena last night and a warrior survived fine for like 7-8 seconds without a healer and without sheild wall.

People wearing resli gear now, even hateful but more importantly deadly it makes them so survivable that our burst isnt much of an issue anymore, and before you say my gear is shite im full valor with betrayer of humanity (yes its my pvp set) and i still cant do as much damage as those silly arcane mages.

Good change to exorcism!!

[Val3rim]

im a bit concerned about the spiritual attunement change
they say its to powerfull for Holy paladins in pvp but, i wonder how they gonna solve it without touching retri and prot tree on pve base

[Someshta]

im a bit concerned about the spiritual attunement change
they say its to powerfull for Holy paladins in pvp but, i wonder how they gonna solve it without touching retri and prot tree on pve base

Yes, that will certainly be interesting to follow. It's a passive ability that all trees have. Perhaps they will nerf it and buff it through the trees of Prot/Ret?

[ShinKosh]

With the SA nerf the synergy with Seal of Blood will suffer badly I think and unless we get a deep Ret talent to give it back the next best idea is to buff JotW.

I'll stab in the dark for 20% but I have no idea what would make it work but I know on fights where you dont get healing back, like on Lotheab and Patchie, mana is an issue when you start Conc and exorcism and that is with the Seal of Blood/healing synergy

[Someshta]

Erm, did you see the changes incoming for prot? Mana shouldn't be an issue any more.

I did read it, and whether or not mana will still be an issue for Prot is irrelevant. They stated that they wanted to keep the mana regen from Spiritual Attunement for Prot paladins, but that it was too great for Holy in a PvP/raid setting.

[eodem]

That change in Excorcism alone is enough to make me jump in the air. As a PvE'er I speculated over an Interupt ability for Paladins with low cooldown. Behold brothers, this is it. Exocorcism might not do that much damage, but it is in my rotation somewhat. And it will crit, but not with 100%, but with your normal spellcrit.

Furthermore, instead of 5 points for 1 paladin to get within a raid, BoK had been made BASE spell. 2 great things. But Blizz didn't stop there, as Prot you have 2 interrupts (unglyphed, where as retri needs to now glyph excorcism) aswell as a 100% to keep divine plea up (?), so definitely no more mana issues.

[Maneken]

As i said before:
Changes for holy are good.
Changes for prot great.
Changes for retri NONE(except exorcism).
To explain a little bit, prot will have alot changes which most of them are deep in tree so no usage for retri.
Holy will also get some nice buffs in tree but again too deep to get for rest of speccs.
Kings will be baseline, but ppl forget default kings are: 2% stats, youll still need to take imp. kings in prot.
All in all, as retri dont see anything good except ill now need to spend 1 talent point less in prot for pve.
Retri paladin wanted some kind of utility against caster instead of retri now prot will have silence effect(this isnt bad, its great pve utility on some mobs)
If you check what they have in mind for changes on DK(which is also hybrid) i cant resist to tell that im thinking to change my main to dk which is allready geared up.

[Cosz]

Ret dmg in pve is fine.
With the amount of raid buffs and support we bring with the decent dps, i dont see a problem.
I love the exorsism change since now my dps will be good in all raids, not awesome in naxx and good in the rest. Add a glyph and there is another usefull skill for raids.
Just hope there wont be to much whine about a 15sec cd interupt.

[eodem]

Ret dmg in pve is fine.
With the amount of raid buffs and support we bring with the decent dps, i dont see a problem.
I love the exorsism change since now my dps will be good in all raids, not awesome in naxx and good in the rest. Add a glyph and there is another usefull skill for raids.
Just hope there wont be to much whine about a 15sec cd interupt.

At this point yes the Ret DPS output is fine. I feel competitive against most classes, when I don't have to bother RL (which is in some fights). My guildies think I'm insane (have all 3 specs socketed and enchanted) and I can switch on the fly. This is to all my honesty the role I rolled for. To be able to switch on the fly. I can offtank if there we lack just 1 offtank in any fight, I can offheal single target pretty well, not aswell as Holy, but heck it's fine. I can output alot of DPS when needed. No I can't MT with this spec on 25 man, but I'm not supposed to. I just want to do the greater thing for the raid.

To this end I love the new Excorcism. 15 secs is longer then most, but now we finally have an interrupt spell, though glyphed.

[Piscesthepally]

15 sec CD interrupt, that does considerable damage is more than awesome as an interrupt. Don't forget that we still have hammer, so you should usually have a way of stopping a cast now.

[exeedorbit]

It's true that ret still does have many fundamental flaws to its mechanics, and it's true that it's being left behind a little bit compared to prot/holy, and the spiritual attunement nerf doesn't exactly help things out in terms of PvE.

But this just comes to show that nobody will ever be happy, everybody complained when ret got buffed to Demi-god status, claiming that all paladins have gone ret, and now some people are discontent with the fact that most paladins are going back to holy. I play them both, and I can honestly say.... people will play the spec where they can be most successful. In terms of PVE... that's CERTAINLY holy above ret. In PvP, depending on the comp, it could go either way. Though holy does have more combinations with which it can be successful, I don't know about ret aside from ret/mage, ret/rogue or ret/dk

[iktankniet]

i disagree.

im higher then enh shaman, feral, boomkin, shadow priest and DK's on almost every bossfight.

elemental is buffed so much, im on par with him. on certain fights in lower because he is a caster and in advantage.

[Cosz]

How can you say its fine?
looking at your stats i can see you pritty well geared ret pally but your saying your not getting out-dmged by

TG warriors
elemental shammies
enhancment shammies
DK's all specs
shadow priests
boomkin druid
feral druid

all these classes are hybrids and should be doing the same dmg

the list for most dmg goes

shadow priests are doing the most dmg atm
then TG warriors
ele shammies
enhancement shammies
DK
feral
boomkin
RET


any1 agree or disagree?

Why would ik complain about being outdpst?
Tg warriors and Shadowpriests out dps me by far but they dont even get close to the amount of raid buffs Ret has.
Boomkins/Ferals do around the same dps as me with again less raid buffs.
Only Shamans bring alot of buffs and do better dmg.
Only Dk spec that out dps me is dualwield Frost/Unholy

I wouldnt trade my raid utility for abit more dps.

[Ivresse]

As i said before:
Changes for holy are good.
Changes for prot great.
Changes for retri NONE(except exorcism).

You do realise that the list of changes isn't actually complete, right?

[Divinestorm]

I'm sorry but you guys have missed the point completely. This exorcism change isn't going to do as much for us as you think it will.

This isn't buffing Retribution Paladin's, this is buffing the whole Paladin class.

Holy------------Prot------------






Ret-------------

Shaman's

Resto------------Enhancement------------Ele--------------


A Retribution Paladins DPS is sub-par at most. People are saying we trade damage for utility.
Ask any raider, the Epeen with damage is crude but always there, if people cared about utility they would have made a meter to measure how any times you HoF yourself that fight.

The exorcism change although good, is still not fixing the problem at hand.

The continuous buff's that lead into Holy Paladins and Dk's will be the end of the game, and the fact they're adding more pvp utility to shamans when I know for a fact well played one's are on some of the best teams.

Let me make this clear:

Blizzard is fixing OLD PROBLEMS and not NEW PROBLEMS. They are still thinking that retribution tree is fine, and the holy tree is gimp..I don't even think they have seen the arena charts lately.

Almost all the top teams are restoration sham/hunter or DK/Holy Paladin.

On a pve note how many classes do you know of that have damaging spell that you rely on to keep your dps afloat, that are limited to one class. I don't know of any.

Exorcism will not fix the retribution tree to a viable extent it will simply buff Holy/Prot. They need to really rethink the retribution talent tree and give us 1 more skill to spam. Infact they really should just give a skill all paladins can use but requires a 2-h weapon.

I can only hope they didn't forget about the secondary crusader strike effect, for that will surely be missed.

[Cosz]

this is what im saying you DONT have to be lower dps because you have BETTER buffs

ret brings RANDOM 2-3k flash light heals Not really random its up most of the time
3% crit
retribution aura (talented) 3% haste and 3% dmg increase
BOK bom wisdom
mana replanishment
ALL hand spells protection, salvation and sacrifice
judgement of wisdom, light and the other one no1 uses in PVE

This doesnt mean you HAVE to be lower dps because you have these buffs we should be doing same dps as TG warrior, spriests and ele shammies

this is what Blizzard is saying anyway

if you want me to list all the raid/party buffs ALL the other hybrid classes bring i will do it..

shadow priest

mana regen
stam buff
all healing spells Not useable in Shadowform
sheilds
shadow dmg vunrebility? to help DK and warlock spells>? Got changed into a selfbuff

i dont know anymore lol but ...

you shouldn't accept LOWER dmg because you have more utility thats not what Blizzard want

Well if my dmg was way lower that those classes i would be complaining, dont want to be like Spriest where in tbc.
now my dmg is not low just not as much as other classes and im fine with that since i bring way more buffs (Could be that im still not used enough to wotlk though) atm the difference with the other hybrid classes is small 500-700dps between the highst and lowest where im in the middle.

[Ageto68]

How much of a DPS increase is Exorcism?

AND it wont crit on non Undead which ulduar has no undead right?

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41103

It doesnt mean it WONT crit on non undead, simply that its an AUTO crit for undead targets

[Ageto68]

15 second cooldown is gay they need to change it or lower it

As an attack, this isn't optimal. Not unless they buff the damage it does or allow it to put a debuff that does something beneficial - say, increase Holy dmg taken by 2% for 15 sec.....along those lines

But as an interrupt, this is a decent cooldown. It ensures that you need at least another person to interrupt (PvE)