What spec for DW tanking?

[Kadvael]

This I agree with but for different reasons. There is NOTHING in DW tanking that causes you to take massively more damage or even enough of a difference to be talking about. However, that said, it is a tanking method that relies very heavily on AoE attacks to maintain threat, even on single target mobs. So unless Frosties are given a single target version of Howling Blast before Ulduar, where they've mentioned that you're going to need to CC again, then DW tanking is going to be a bad idea simply becaues it risks breaking CC too often. The only single target option for Frosties are Icy Touch, Frost Strike and Obliterate. Icy Touch doesn't deal enough damage to a single target and doesn't have a boosted threat rating on it so it won't be enough to hold a mob and Frost Strike costing RP alongside Rune Strike will make for holding a target without Howling Blasts difficult against the kind of DPS we're going to see in Ulduar. Obliterate is basically useless with DW and most people simply spec out of the damage boosting talents of it because it's too heavily weapon damage based.

I don't see a way for DW Frost Death Knights to handle mobs in CC heavy situations, unless they're a third or fourth tank that have some time to build up threat before the dps unload.

what about unholy DW tanking ?

[Kathis]

what about unholy DW tanking ?

It's something I'm unfortunately very unfamiliar with so I don't know how it will fare. I know for AoE control they use UB and DnD, but to maintain control on single targets, once three diseases are up, can't SS, DC and a bit of tab targetting keep a few mobs well controlled?

If I recall right, their disease spreading mechanic will not break CC, so as long as you're not using UB, DnD or Blood Boil in close quarters with CC'd mobs, I'd think they'd fare alright.

[Lucky_]

If I recall right, their disease spreading mechanic will not break CC, so as long as you're not using UB, DnD or Blood Boil in close quarters with CC'd mobs, I'd think they'd fare alright.

Both disease damage and pestilence break CC.

[Pcloadletter]

Bank 1handers. Equip 2hander. Enchant Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle. Spec Blood and produce 10k-11k TPS. Problem solved. No more DW tank threads kthx (until blizz actually makes it viable).

[Kathis]

Both disease damage and pestilence break CC.

I wasn't speaking of pestilence which will become a zero damage ability soon anyways, it was an unholy talent I was referring to, Wandering plague which specifically states that it doesn't interfere with CC. That said, I'm also aware that many tank specs don't include it.

As for Mr. Spec blood and don't talk about DW anymore... frankly, piss off. If you want to play blood and focus on single target threat, then by all means feel free. Don't presume to tell others what is or is not viable when it's already been proven 100% by better players than you that it IS viable. Further to that, these aren't your forums, and people are free to discuss whatever they feel like. If you don't like it, don't click on threads obviously discussing DW tanking. Problem solved, no more need for your input. "kthx"

[Offhand]

As it stands right now, no tanks but druids can. Warriors need shockwave, DKs need howling blast and DnD, paladins need consecration.

Notably, druids are the only class that could potentially handle sitation with heavy CC without breaking it by accident without losing a lot of their tanking tools, but they are also the worst class by far for AoE tanking - if in doubt try taking druid along for blaze/whelp tank in sath3d. It will be a nightmare.

Not really, threat from consecration works in boss fights and AoE trash pulls but I could easily hold threat off a single target without it.

Dunno about warriors full rotation but shockwave has a longish cooldown. There's plenty of other stuff they can spam in the meantime.

Not to mention CC is more idiot proof. Some AoE abilities specifically ignore CC'd targets and CC'd targets can take a small amount of damage before breaking. Normally meaning you need to specifically run up and smack the target to knock it out of the sap/sheep/whatever.

[maevtr]

i would not take this spec, DW has a massive hit penalty applied to it, meaning that u need to stack hit and expertise out the ass. In terms of threat generation, it will actually be alot less. All or most of our spells are instant attacks with our MH weapon, meaning that a scourge strike instantly attacks with your 2 handed weapon, causing weapon dmg plus blah blah blah for each disease. So if you were using a 1 handed weapon, your instant attacks would be doing far less damage, and your threat would be far lower.

[Kadvael]

I wasn't speaking of pestilence which will become a zero damage ability soon anyways, it was an unholy talent I was referring to, Wandering plague which specifically states that it doesn't interfere with CC. That said, I'm also aware that many tank specs don't include it.

wandering plague the trouble is that it is based upon the crit rate. and the crit rate of a tank is rather low. it is a nice threat complement tho but not enough to keep the aggro in an CCd aoe pull.
but i don't get why people complain about CC and all. it's jsut the same as before with the paladin consecration or the warrior thunder clap, you have to greatly care when using them when pulling mobs including CCs. good players will get the stats and play it the right way, bad ones will fail.

As for Mr. Spec blood and don't talk about DW anymore... frankly, piss off. If you want to play blood and focus on single target threat, then by all means feel free. Don't presume to tell others what is or is not viable when it's already been proven 100% by better players than you that it IS viable. Further to that, these aren't your forums, and people are free to discuss whatever they feel like. If you don't like it, don't click on threads obviously discussing DW tanking. Problem solved, no more need for your input. "kthx"

+1
i'm really annnoyed by all those people having already finished all the 25men having nothing to gain anymore from the actual gear and supossing it's the same for everyplayer in the game. actually some plays other ways than yours so stop being so full of yourself you're not even able to communicate.

[tirsie]

TBH I usually 2 hand tank unless I am main tanking Sarth with 3 drakes up. When I tank him I use 2 Broken Promises with spellshattering on them and my anti-magic/high stam spec. My threat generation isn't horrible nor is it spectacular with this build but threat really isn't an issue on that fight being that everyone switches to the drakes as soon as they land. I push out about 5.5-7k tps using 2 one handers and yes an unholy spec that I made up for the encounter. The one problem with this spec however is that my threat on aoe mobs is horrible, but luckly I only go this spec once or so a week for Sarth. Since the armory is currently "busy" I can't post a direct link to my character but if you want to look her up her name is crystál on bleeding hallow.

The spec looks something like:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

But remember, this isn't a spec I would propose to use as a general tanking of all bosses as the threat really isn't there but it serves a purpose, and that is MT'n OS25 with 3 drakes up. The 24% stock magic mitigation and having ~45k HP buffed makes it quite easy to stay alive during his breaths between the 2nd and 3rd drakes which usually will cause most tanks a lot of trouble. But timing out my IBF/BS/AMZ/AMS/Guardian Spirits/and if we are lucky enough to have a disc priest on for the night PS makes that phase a breeze. Pallies, Warriors and druids can't mitigate magic damage as well as a DK with this spec currently can nor can they do it for as long. Also, during that phase I stop dps'n all together because of the debuff that makes him immune to dmg and of course no wanting extra dmg in from my debuff/parries. When we were learning the encounter I was generally the last person standing as this spec is truly amazing for survival. And if you are too lazy to look me up I have all 213+ tanking gear and a lot of expertise with that spec. And If you look me up and notice I am wearing a 2hander and have a completely different spec, well that just means we killed sarth this week already or decided to start the week off in Naxx. And if you are going to ask why not just use the naxx trash mace with spellbreaking on it to tank him I would be forced to respond the extra defense on the 2x Broken Promises adds to my IBF mitigation amt which clearly makes it a better choice, but thats just my 2c take it with a grain of salt. All in all for everything else I would suggest using a 2hander.

edit: pasted the wrong spec ^^

[Zelven]

i would not take this spec, DW has a massive hit penalty applied to it, meaning that u need to stack hit and expertise out the ass. In terms of threat generation, it will actually be alot less. All or most of our spells are instant attacks with our MH weapon, meaning that a scourge strike instantly attacks with your 2 handed weapon, causing weapon dmg plus blah blah blah for each disease. So if you were using a 1 handed weapon, your instant attacks would be doing far less damage, and your threat would be far lower.

New to DW and everything, I take it? It would also help to remove your head from your ass and attempt to read the thread.

The hit rating penalty only applies to white attacks. With a 2hander, my white attacks are barely noticeable. And generally, they're not even going off with Rune Strike going. So as a DW tank, it'd be the same, just about. Hit is negligible. Nice try.
Expertise is also "meh" in this case. Frost Strike and Rune Strike cannot be parried or dodged; Icy Touch and Howling Blast are spells, and they cannot be parried or dodged (duh). Expertise would assist in the white attacks, which as already put, aren't really worth much.

The suggested DW spec is FROST. You aren't going to have Scourge Strike. You aren't going to really be depending on any sort of instant strike that deals damage based on diseases aside from Howling Blast.
Lessee. Just tanked a couple heroics (CoS and Old Kingdom): I used Blood Strike a total of 4 times. Plague Strike 6. That's it. And the Plague Strike was against targets that were hit with Renew during the Insanity event (had a priest healer). I just don't find myself using either of those skills often enough. And, honestly, I doubt that stance would change with DW tanking. I also don't think anyone else is vastly different from myself in the case of Frost tanking as Blood Plague just isn't needed. That Unholy Rune is best used with a Howling Blast rather than a Plague Strike.

For Unholy DW tanking...eh. Doable, I guess. But there's more focus on melee than there is spells. I'd rather go frost. It supports the notion the best, it would seem.

TBH I usually 2 hand tank unless I am main tanking Sarth with 3 drakes up. When I tank him I use 2 Broken Promises with spellshattering on them and my anti-magic/high stam spec. My threat generation isn't horrible nor is it spectacular with this build but threat really isn't an issue on that fight being that everyone switches to the drakes as soon as they land. I push out about 5.5-7k tps using 2 one handers and yes an unholy spec that I made up for the encounter. The one problem with this spec however is that my threat on aoe mobs is horrible, but luckly I only go this spec once or so a week for Sarth. Since the armory is currently "busy" I can't post a direct link to my character but if you want to look her up her name is crystál on bleeding hallow.

The spec looks something like:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

But remember, this isn't a spec I would propose to use as a general tanking of all bosses as the threat really isn't there but it serves a purpose, and that is MT'n OS25 with 3 drakes up. The 24% stock magic mitigation and having ~45k HP buffed makes it quite easy to stay alive during his breaths between the 2nd and 3rd drakes which usually will cause most tanks a lot of trouble. But timing out my IBF/BS/AMZ/AMS/Guardian Spirits/and if we are lucky enough to have a disc priest on for the night PS makes that phase a breeze. Pallies, Warriors and druids can't mitigate magic damage as well as a DK with this spec currently can nor can they do it for as long. Also, during that phase I stop dps'n all together because of the debuff that makes him immune to dmg and of course no wanting extra dmg in from my debuff/parries. When we were learning the encounter I was generally the last person standing as this spec is truly amazing for survival. And if you are too lazy to look me up I have all 213+ tanking gear and a lot of expertise with that spec. And If you look me up and notice I am wearing a 2hander and have a completely different spec, well that just means we killed sarth this week already or decided to start the week off in Naxx. And if you are going to ask why not just use the naxx trash mace with spellbreaking on it to tank him I would be forced to respond the extra defense on the 2x Broken Promises adds to my IBF mitigation amt which clearly makes it a better choice, but thats just my 2c take it with a grain of salt. All in all for everything else I would suggest using a 2hander.

edit: pasted the wrong spec ^^

Interesting. I can see how it would be beneficial for that particular encounter. Especially since, even though threat might be lacking, it doesn't matter as much as DPS really shouldn't be focusing on Sarth until near the end. I can see how UH DW could work in that case. But in a most cases of Frost vs Unholy DW tanking, I think Frost would prevail. Especially on more "natural" gear levels rather than a specifically tailored Sarth 3D encountre. :P

[Abandon]

Here is a frost DW tanking spec that I use:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

Since they are lowering the talent point cost of Blood of the North you will have two additional talent points to play with. Èndless Winter is taken simply because it is always frustrating when you want to use Mind Freeze and are out of Runic Power. Hungering Cold is just being taken for the sake of completeness, and I have had it save me on a few occasions in heroics on adds. For 40 RP it spreads Frost Fever to all targets, not too shabby.

Checking the various other threads, there are rumors floating about of Hungering Cold getting replaced, and parts of the Frost tree rebalanced, so of course this will be something to keep an eye on.

Also, they have mentioned changing Unbreakable Armour to absorb damage instead of increase armour, so it will be usable against bosses that deal magical damage.

[Zelven]

Here is a frost DW tanking spec that I use:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...h=000000000000

Since they are lowering the talent point cost of Blood of the North you will have two additional talent points to play with. Èndless Winter is taken simply because it is always frustrating when you want to use Mind Freeze and are out of Runic Power. Hungering Cold is just being taken for the sake of completeness, and I have had it save me on a few occasions in heroics on adds. For 40 RP it spreads Frost Fever to all targets, not too shabby.

Checking the various other threads, there are rumors floating about of Hungering Cold getting replaced, and parts of the Frost tree rebalanced, so of course this will be something to keep an eye on.

Also, they have mentioned changing Unbreakable Armour to absorb damage instead of increase armour, so it will be usable against bosses that deal magical damage.

*nudgenudge* You just copy-pasted Tirsie's spec. >_>;

I enjoy Hungering Cold, as well. If you have the RP available and are chain pulling (Heroic CoS timed run is a wonderful example), it's a great skill to use to quickly apply Howling Blast.

[Abandon]

Haha, I hadn't actually checked any of the other specs in the thread ><

From the replies I skimmed over in the first few pages seemed to just be the usual "DW sucks, here is a 2 handed tanking spec" type of thing you get in these threads

Anyway, as I mentioned, you will get another 2 talent points free with this build if they keep the current changes to Blood of the North.

[fakestreet]

My personal choice in that build would actually be to drop the points in Tundra stalker and put them in acclimation, resulting in 6% less threat but more survivability. But that's a personal choice, not a requirement either way.

wouldn't it be more TPS if you drop BCB rather than Tundra Stalker?
from my personal experience as Unholy, BCB contributes a lower% of damage than Necrosis and considering they changed BCB to PPM rather than a straight%, i would think this would translate the same way from 2H to DW.

keeping the Expertise + %damage (on everything mind you), would yield more TPS while allowing you to take Acclimation. personally, i'd rather max TS than taking Acclimation, but i would have taken 2pts from Necrosis to do that.

also, would RS replace the next MH swing or just the next swing in general (i.e. threat would be heavily RNG'd if you swing with OH)?
basically, i've never tried DW yet and always wondered if the %weapon damage stuff is applied only to MH or an average of both.

[Offhand]

New to DW and everything, I take it? It would also help to remove your head from your ass and attempt to read the thread.

The hit rating penalty only applies to white attacks. With a 2hander, my white attacks are barely noticeable. And generally, they're not even going off with Rune Strike going. So as a DW tank, it'd be the same, just about. Hit is negligible. Nice try.
Expertise is also "meh" in this case. Frost Strike and Rune Strike cannot be parried or dodged; Icy Touch and Howling Blast are spells, and they cannot be parried or dodged (duh). Expertise would assist in the white attacks, which as already put, aren't really worth much.

The suggested DW spec is FROST. You aren't going to have Scourge Strike. You aren't going to really be depending on any sort of instant strike that deals damage based on diseases aside from Howling Blast.
Lessee. Just tanked a couple heroics (CoS and Old Kingdom): I used Blood Strike a total of 4 times. Plague Strike 6. That's it. And the Plague Strike was against targets that were hit with Renew during the Insanity event (had a priest healer). I just don't find myself using either of those skills often enough. And, honestly, I doubt that stance would change with DW tanking. I also don't think anyone else is vastly different from myself in the case of Frost tanking as Blood Plague just isn't needed. That Unholy Rune is best used with a Howling Blast rather than a Plague Strike.

You do realize that spells require more hit than physical abilities as well?

Have fun in heroics.

[Kadvael]

My personal choice in that build would actually be to drop the points in Tundra stalker and put them in acclimation, resulting in 6% less threat but more survivability. But that's a personal choice, not a requirement either way.

believe me (or not but) 6% less threat is def not a good idea when DW tanking. you basically generates less threat then a 2her, why would you ever lower even more your threat generation ?

[Kathis]

believe me (or not but) 6% less threat is def not a good idea when DW tanking. you basically generates less threat then a 2her, why would you ever lower even more your threat generation ?

Appreciate the advice, but 6% threat is negligible when you're already 30% above the nearest on a regular basis. Considering the mass of spell damage you take as a frost DK, I'll take the extra protection over extra threat that I just don't need. If I ever find myself struggling for it, then I'll consider shifting things around, until then, additional threat is a waste of talent points for me when compared against additional mitigation.

[Kathis]

wouldn't it be more TPS if you drop BCB rather than Tundra Stalker?
from my personal experience as Unholy, BCB contributes a lower% of damage than Necrosis and considering they changed BCB to PPM rather than a straight%, i would think this would translate the same way from 2H to DW.

keeping the Expertise + %damage (on everything mind you), would yield more TPS while allowing you to take Acclimation. personally, i'd rather max TS than taking Acclimation, but i would have taken 2pts from Necrosis to do that.

also, would RS replace the next MH swing or just the next swing in general (i.e. threat would be heavily RNG'd if you swing with OH)?
basically, i've never tried DW yet and always wondered if the %weapon damage stuff is applied only to MH or an average of both.

You're absolutely right about BCB. Good call. It's fairly close from what I see, I'm seeing about 4-5% from BCB for myself, which is additional damage above and beyond but the advantage of keeping Tundra Stalker instead is that it buffs your unavoidable attacks rather than creating a parryable attack.

To the best of my knowledge, RS is always based on MH damage. I'm basing this solely on the numbers I've seen recorded in my recount. If it were to ever be an OH strike, then the damage range of the ability would be very large with an extremely low minimum.

As for the hit rating question that someone brought up, if you read the specs appropriately, it has a 3% hit buff applied already to spells thanks to virulence. A draenei adds 1%, IFF or Misery adds 3%, so assuming you have a decent raid composition you need a total of 263 hit to be capped.

Now let's compare that to the requirement of 2h. Depending on which theory you believe (9% hit cap or 8% hit cap) you need either 296 hit rating or 263 hit rating to start with to be capped. Assuming the 8% hit cap, since as far as I'm concerned it's been pretty conclusively proven, 263 is our start number. A draenei adds 1%, IFF or Misery do not apply to you since they only affect spells. So you're looking at 230 hit rating to be capped. A total of 33 hit rating less than DW.

33 hit rating? That's the "massive" amount more hit rating you're complaining about? Enough that you actually think it'll restrict people to heroics? That's pretty laughable. Frankly, I have 270 hit rating in my gear which I can afford easily because I can afford to have less expertise than a 2h tank needs, thanks to the fact that most of my skills cannot be dodged to begin with while the bulk of a 2-hander's can.

It's just a matter of balancing different stats. Suggesting that it's ridiculous and unattainable just tells me you haven't bothered to do the math.