"Ulduar - The future, past and present of raids"

[Nezoia]

"Sad"? Really? Get off your high horse. It's a freakin' game, man. Don't misunderstand things.

No thanks, the air smells much better here on top of my horsie.

If it was a freaking game, how about accepting that if you suck at playing it, you should pratice more. Like in any other game.

I've never seen anyone nerf the rules of football, just because some random bunch of kids failed epicly at kicking to a ball.

[rufryde2000]

I don't buy it, I think there are more people who played before, actively playing now, then the casual new comers blizzard states, and claiming that 3 new people start if one old timer quits, is inaccurate, this old timer has payed for 3 copies of wow, to RAF several toons and ordeals like that, I also have out lasted the "new comers" as persae So thinking its financially smart to not appeal to your complete playerbase and ignore them is a horrible business tactic.

but listen to what you are saying, good or bad you aren't going anywhere. Why should i change my product to try and keep you when you have proven you aren't leaving. And if you are you are 1 person where with the changes i can pick up maybe 1-2 new people (even with reducing my ratio earlier) its still sound.

the natural evolution of anything will get people talking about "the good ole days" if you don't believe me then ask your parents these questions:

What is the best music of all time?

Who was the best writer?

Name their favorite president?

What was the best year in their personal history?

Things change and thats fine my argument had nothing to do with the content being easy and therefore bad for the game, it was the saturation of the content, and therefore leading to a boredom of things to do. The past is gone wave to the future or be stuck in the past. if you played vanilla and TBC, then you have an idea about the game "was" and what it should be in the future based off that. These is strategy for failure. Things must change.

Also the argument, that blizzard is losing people with it content changes is a fallacy, as the numbers prove with each change more and more subscribers are logging in. The game is coming to its pinnacle but again that is just the natural evolution of everything.

[Conall]

What I would really like to see is less QQ about Blizzard catering to more of their subscribers. I have played since vanilla wow, not for a long time before, but long enough to know/experience all the changes that they have done since then, but come on. Your not going to change the fact that they are going to tailor this game into what they want, nothing more, nothing less. YES, I do think that they should have some content that is more for players who have more and more time to dedicate to this, i.e. hardcore, but it is also nice to know that you can see the content even if your not one.

Everyone who has not participated in the vanilla raids like BWL, AQ40 and Naxx has at some point heard of someone talking about it. And yes, now that we are 80, doing these 'Old School' raids seems pointless and just a waste of time unless your going for the achievment points, but it also allows everyone who has only heard and watched youtube videos about them, actually see and some what experience them. Granted, they were never intended for level 80 characters, but thats getting off topic. I myself have been fortunate enough to on multiple characters been able to get into these raids from vanilla wow to wrath because I was on at the right time or just happen to be lucky and get into one of those guilds that mass recruited and then pruned their ranks to form guilds that could preform.

I am not saying that everyone should be able to get to all the content. I myself am probably geared enough for Maly, but have never set foot in there, reguardless of me having the key. I know that the possiabily of me participating in a Sarth3D is slim to nothing, but I dont think that I as a 'casual (working wednesday - saturday nights 18:15-06:30 for the last 3 years allowing me to play on the front half of the week, plus add in time for my gf and me time)' should not be able to compete with other people who play after school or after work for 4-5 hours a night daily + weekends, for gear or even raid spots because I am not dedicated enough to be raiding those same hours. I am sorry, making the money that I make and the schedule that I have, is the best that I can get to support myself and I dont think I should have to change that to be accepted as a 'harcore' raider.

I certainly think that if someone has been playing for as long as I and even longer should not be told that they are not as dedicated as others who have had all the tier gear and offset pieces to go with it. 3 years is a long time. Playing thru all of the patches, nerfs/buffs, and even the server reset days. It just sickens me that those who have done everything are now complaining that 'everything is easymode and that there is no skill involved'. Yes there is skill involved, you will not see every guild who can clear Naxx25, Maly25, and Vault25 go into OS25 and do Sarth3D. It is a little more complicated then 'ROFLSTOMP TEH BOSS AND PROFIT!'

My point in writing this is not to post for the 'casual' players against the 'hardcore' raiders, or vice versa. It is to say that yes, things were a lot harder before. If you got to do all the level 60 dungeons back when 60 was the cap, moving to 70, and finially to 80, GRATZ! Now move on. You aswell have had to go thru the nerfs/buffs and guess what, your still playing. If you really didn't like it that much, I wouldnt expect to see you play it still after you completed everything in Wrath. Blizzard is changing their game to how they vision it, not yours. That goes for both casual and hardcore players. Complaining about it changes nothing.

[Mandible]

No thanks, the air smells much better here on top of my horsie.

If it was a freaking game, how about accepting that if you suck at playing it, you should pratice more. Like in any other game.

I've never seen anyone nerf the rules of football, just because some random bunch of kids failed epicly at kicking to a ball.

You mean besides those matches where "there are no loosers, just second place winners"... Trust me there are plenty of rl examples where things get catered to the loosing party.

[Deleted]

Interesting opening post, but I can't completely agree to it.
The right way to go, to my opinion, is something in between the 2 excesses we've seen. Now things are definitely too easy and too accessible to everyone, I concur you shouldn't necessarily make everything accessible to every single player.
But, at the same time thinking about the past, that was too much unaccessible for too many people.

Something in between those 2 extremes would be the right way to go, imho.

[Deleted]

I hope there will be some attunement quest for ulduar and future raids, propably involving HoS or HoL and perhaps stormy peaks. Ok I accept the fact that naxxramas, sarth and malygos are intro raids, but please dont make ulduar superaccesible at start...

Or as someone else posted put a gearcheck boss that noone can get past and call it 'the gatekeeper'.

[Wagram]

So what about us who graduated? Should we look for a new job in another game?

This, right here, sums it all up.
You people want a sense of achievement ? How about you look for it in the real life, and play World of Warcraft for what it is: a game.

It's a sad case of elitism and lack of contact with reality. Move along, nothing to see here.

[awake283]

No thanks, the air smells much better here on top of my horsie.

If it was a freaking game, how about accepting that if you suck at playing it, you should pratice more. Like in any other game.

I've never seen anyone nerf the rules of football, just because some random bunch of kids failed epicly at kicking to a ball.

Well you summed up your entire stupid opinion in three lines. Just because I don't take WoW as seriously as someone like yourself, I suck at it. Now if that isn't the definition of assumed arrogance, I don't know what is.

And let me just add that I mean taking it serious in terms of being a righteous dbag. I take learning my class and playing intelligently just as seriously as anyone else. I just dont cry like a little girl when Blizzard makes a business decision.

I mean really, 3K+ posts here and you aren't any better than the random new sign ups? You complain about this same stupid shit?

You are a sad and pathetic demonstration of internet elitism. I want to put you in a jar and study you like a science project.

[snipe]

No thanks, the air smells much better here on top of my horsie.

If it was a freaking game, how about accepting that if you suck at playing it, you should pratice more. Like in any other game.

I've never seen anyone nerf the rules of football, just because some random bunch of kids failed epicly at kicking to a ball.

Lol - again u fail at observing real-life. Its called dumbing down it happens all the time. Would u like me to google links for any of the major sports that have had their rules changed in the last 20 years to make them more TV friendly?

[sejer]

I've never seen anyone nerf the rules of football, just because some random bunch of kids failed epicly at kicking to a ball.

haha that's awesome.

[sejer]

Lol - again u fail at observing real-life. Its called dumbing down it happens all the time. Would u like me to google links for any of the major sports that have had their rules changed in the last 20 years to make them more TV friendly?

the difference is that the sports players don't pay for the game in those sports. nice analogy fail.

[marv3llous]

So, just because casual players dont want to or dont have the possibility to dedicate as much time on this game as someone else means this game should be on the level of the casual players to make everyone feel equal? How bout offering everyone little something? For example 10man normal instances are easier and thus casual players are able to clear this content and 25man is "epic" quality raid for more dedicated players. Would casuals cancel their sub because they cant get into 25 then?

[Gimlyly]

It's not a wall of text you nincompoops.

[snipe]

the difference is that the sports players don't pay for the game in those sports. nice analogy fail.

But the people who the changes are centred around DO. Way to go to make the wrong high level abstraction on and overly simplistic point.
The distinction you made only changes the analogy if you consider player and spectator as separate entities that dont influence each other. In real sport the relationship is tenuous but you are dumbing down to create something that doesn't alienate the money generating majority. Who gives a crap if anyone playing the sport gives a shit, (or even sports purists who appreciated that obscurely technical thing) the people on TV want it to be more fun, it will.
The point is that the majority of people like the game this way. If you ask most of them, they will lie - obviously the object of the game is to be an elite raiding bad ass, the easiest way to show that right now is QQ'ing about how easy the game is now.

[Magadansky]

I hope there will be some attunement quest for ulduar and future raids, propably involving HoS or HoL and perhaps stormy peaks. Ok I accept the fact that naxxramas, sarth and malygos are intro raids, but please dont make ulduar superaccesible at start...

Or as someone else posted put a gearcheck boss that noone can get past and call it 'the gatekeeper'.

HoS and HoL in heroic is nothing close to what Shattered Halls used to be for the TK attunement.

As far as gearcheck goes, well i'm pretty sure that won't be a problem either .

Just make stuff harder. Stop indulging QQ and "it's just a game" arguments. It's a game yea, just a different game than what it used to be.

[snipe]

HoS and HoL in heroic is nothing close to what Shattered Halls used to be for the TK attunement.

As far as gearcheck goes, well i'm pretty sure that won't be a problem either .

Just make stuff harder. Stop indulging QQ and "it's just a game" arguments. It's a game yea, just a different game than what it used to be.

QFT!

[Marooned]

I've never seen anyone nerf the rules of football, just because some random bunch of kids failed epicly at kicking to a ball.

bad example!
even noobest kids can score against each other and have same fun as pro players in football weak attack line against weak defense line = balance

[sejer]

with weak defence line i assume you are talking about current content. when strong attack (hardcore raiders) come to this weak defence line then the fun ends.

[Elektrik]

I just wish 10 mans were able to be completed by "scrubs" and 25 mans had a sense of progression.

That is all - everybody gets to see the content and fight all the bosses. I guess the scrubs would still bitch that they can't get the best gear but honestly, if you're only running 10 mans, you don't need the best gear.

People in 213s should be able to run through Ulduar10 no problem, and people in 200s should struggle a little. People in 213s should struggle a lot in Ulduar25, and people in 200s should have absolutely no chance.

That would be ideal - everybody gets what they want. Easy and accessible new content for 10 man'ers, and difficult, progression based content for 25 man'ers.

Clarification -
Casual player /= scrub.
Casual player that thinks they should have the best gear = scrub.

[Sillicur]

Okay read through all the comments and let me just say, most of you ppl are morons. Talking about RL etc, this is a game forum, not a RL forum. There we go, got that off my chest.

Now, i agree that ulduar should be harder, much harder, but i have a few questions for these so called "casual" players.

1. Do you want to roll face through ulduar and only wipe like 2-3 times till the final boss?

2. Do you need to complete every raid instance in WOTLK with almost 0 effort? Even from you part, cause casual is not equal to bad.

3. This is an mmo right? MMO's need to have some form of progressions so people dont get bored. So what im asking is, if you have nothing to aspire to, wont u get bored of WoW when u kill everything so quickly and without effort?

All these stupid remarks about QQ, get a RL achievement, "elitists" remarks, bliz is a business remarks and many more can GO TO HELL.

Do you want to play a game like Quake or Fear and have god mode on 99% of the time? No, cause its not fun. There needs to be a challenge to keep the game interesting and before you say "then quit the game", im not talking about interesting and challenging for me, im talking about everyone, even the casuals. The only players i exclude from this is the bad players who hide behind the "casual" excuse. Who spend more time that hardcores but just fail. Im thinking there are allot of them posting here.

PS: Im not saying casual = bad players at all