What's this about Ret being lowest dps @ max geared/buffed/skilled raid?

[Slade]

I haven't found a post yet explaining this rumor I'm hearing about Ret turning out to be the worst hybrid dps and bottom end of meters on a raid boss fight, with a skilled and max geared/buffed raid. I also find it hard to believe because I've played with some of the best dps on my server and I consistantly get top 3 on virtually every boss fight. We're of equal gear and skill, and I just dont see how the last couple moderate upgrades left in the game for us will drop me to the low end and keep the others up top. And I'm not talkign about specific fights btw, like affliction locks perfectly geared and buffed with a doomgaurd on patchwork. I'm just talking about overall raid boss dps and where equally skilled ret pallies end up with a max geared raid/guild.

I certainly have found scattered posts about bm hunters, arcane mages, aff locks, and TG warriors being the highest current performers, which is generally true, but I'm neck and neck with them in all of my experiences, save for a good arcane mage in some fights. By the way, I don't necessarily feel that ret deserves to do more max potential dps on a boss than pure dps classes, I just wanna know where people are reading this... and yes I searched here, EJ, WoW forums, and Google, but found nothing definitive.

[Nakko]

max geared ret palas dont tend to get higher than 5.5k dps at patchwerk whereas other classes can get up to 7k, sad indeed.

just go have a look at wws or wmo

[theomegapoint]

rumor = nothing definitive.

?

[Snopptrollet]

max geared ret palas dont tend to get higher than 5.5k dps at patchwerk whereas other classes can get up to 7k, sad indeed.

just go have a look at wws or wmo

That's still more than rogues though who have troubles getting over 5k at all as non-HaT. (Even if HaT isnt bugged it's a silly spec. 3-4k dps from 3 talentpoints? Yes please!)

[infection]

That's still more than rogues though who have troubles getting over 5k at all as non-HaT. (Even if HaT isnt bugged it's a silly spec. 3-4k dps from 3 talentpoints? Yes please!)

That's weird....

http://wowwebstats.com/ook4hw3ghro2o...540&a=x31f8b43
http://wowwebstats.com/ook4hw3ghro2o...540&a=x31f8f3f
http://wowwebstats.com/sgk11cefwimv1...401&a=x1d1be3c

The first 2 are in the same fight.

Weird.

Hell, I didn't even have to really dig to find that...

[Sneax]

i may have read it wrong, but i snopptrollet was saying that only HaT rogues are getting over 5k, all 3 of those WWS links are for HaT rogues, so u kinda proved his point

[Slade]

max geared ret palas dont tend to get higher than 5.5k dps at patchwerk whereas other classes can get up to 7k, sad indeed.

just go have a look at wws or wmo

Yeah, I realize that we're weakest on pure sustained tank spank with no ads (Patch), but if you only judge from this one, non-typical fight then you're missing the big picture. In my experience, Ret will be up high on wws in most fights invloving ads and/or movement, making them a highly valued overall raid dps. I was just concerned if we were going to end up falling to the back once again as the xpack progresses but I dont forsee that happenning tbh. Sounds like most fights will continue to have some dynamic elements that play to our strengths of AoE and decent singletarget dps combined (not to mention our utility but that's another matter).

One funny anomaly though is Thaddius dps. I have consistantly been 2nd on dps (~7800 dps) just under our top mage every time. I know it's a little bit of a movement fight depending on your luck, but I noticed that the dmg buff seems to scale our Righteous Vengeance DoT very high in recount on just that fight. It's always #3 for me on Thaddius. Anway, seeing as how this fight is a simple tank and spank with limited movement, the dps scale changes quite a bit from how we rank on patch.

[Vallos]

You're right that ret paladins don't particularly shine in circumstantial tank-and-spank encounters. Some classes get huge benefits for stacking up on one target (mages) and being able to focus all of their cooldowns into condensed destruction.

This is not to say that ret paladins aren't still good-- the highest DPS in my guild is consistently a ret paladin. This isn't particularly because of the class so much as the player, but it shows that it's not impossible:

http://wowwebstats.com/t34vbjevybzbc

Ignore the lower DPS, we had to bring a lot of trash players last week because we're having trouble finding enough people interested in Naxx-- so booooored.

[Alensia]

Paladins have always been, are, and will always be the lowest DPS in the game. What's so new about it?

[Slade]

Paladins have always been, are, and will always be the lowest DPS in the game. What's so new about it?

Hi there, since you obviously haven't been around from 3.0 onward, you should know that ret dps/dmg in PVE is now very high on avg. Good rets own most so-so players of virtually every class. Blizz intended this... from their own posts they stated that ret would be on par or better than, say, a rogue, if they were simply a better player. Basically they have the tools and potential at their disposal to be competitive dps now and are doing so. Not that they will be one of the top 3 classes for dps at max geared end-game content, but they are at the least solid mid-pack dps in a good guild. And naturally, it all depends on the fight, but on average this is true.

[chitanblue]

ret dps/dmg in PVE is now very high on avg

I didn't think it was true but it is.

[Shima]

One funny anomaly though is Thaddius dps. I have consistantly been 2nd on dps (~7800 dps) just under our top mage every time. I know it's a little bit of a movement fight depending on your luck, but I noticed that the dmg buff seems to scale our Righteous Vengeance DoT very high in recount on just that fight. It's always #3 for me on Thaddius. Anway, seeing as how this fight is a simple tank and spank with limited movement, the dps scale changes quite a bit from how we rank on patch.

Yeah, I notice that too. I always top my guild's dps on Thadd w/ 9k. And its the same for Maly, I top dps for phase 1 as well. Maybe it has something to do with the 100+% dmg modifying effects.

[CobraN]

http://wowwebstats.com/afr41oqbsilyw?s=316380-355855

In all the rest of the fights our ret is doing well too and he doesn't even have BoH.

edit: and no, he is not a better player than the rest of us. Ret simply does more dmg than for example an equally skilled mutilate rogue (me ).

[greatrichie]

Ret can pull pretty respectable DPS. I pull 5.8-5.9K every week without really breaking a sweat. I don't even flask up usually. While that is under quite a few of the numbers I've seen for some classes, it's pretty decent for a class that brings so much utility, and I'm more than happy with what a good ret can put out.

http://wowwebstats.com/6aocuxuyryoaq?s=48733-86546

[Alicice]

That's weird....

http://wowwebstats.com/ook4hw3ghro2o...540&a=x31f8b43
http://wowwebstats.com/ook4hw3ghro2o...540&a=x31f8f3f
http://wowwebstats.com/sgk11cefwimv1...401&a=x1d1be3c

The first 2 are in the same fight.

Weird.

Hell, I didn't even have to really dig to find that...

Active presence : 1'37'' (99 % of raid)

1 minute 37 second patchwerk fight.

DPS values will obviously be high.

[Zhalseran]

That's weird....

http://wowwebstats.com/ook4hw3ghro2o...540&a=x31f8b43
http://wowwebstats.com/ook4hw3ghro2o...540&a=x31f8f3f
http://wowwebstats.com/sgk11cefwimv1...401&a=x1d1be3c

The first 2 are in the same fight.

Weird.

Hell, I didn't even have to really dig to find that...

You probably want to look further than a ~1:30 pathwerk kill if you want actual meaningful data, they mean almost nothing except that the group has good tanks/healers, (or 2 of each anyways) and that the DPS can all push the cooldown button at the same time. Also the 2 Rogues you linked are HaT specced. There is a combat rogue further down at 5.4k. They have a ret Paladin at the bottom doing 5.1k

People have the misconception that ret is uber-godly now because of pvp. They are miles ahead of what they were pre-3.0 but they are still close to if not the bottom of the barrel among viable dps specs. A good ret that has the skill and the gear can definitely do well for themselves, I raid with one that is usually about 5th, higher on fights they can clip with divine storm/consecration. For what it's worth, in the same raid as above, the same ret is 11th on anubrekhan, 10th on faerlina, 12th on Gluth, which isn't too bad out of 21 dps.

In the end, all things being equal, ret just tends to fall to the bottom of the barrel

[Kulltiras]

Good [Word left out because of lack of importance] own most so-so players of virtually every [ANYTHING].

no wai

[Ghul]

You probably want to look further than a ~1:30 pathwerk kill if you want actual meaningful data, they mean almost nothing except that the group has good tanks/healers, (or 2 of each anyways) and that the DPS can all push the cooldown button at the same time. Also the 2 Rogues you linked are HaT specced. There is a combat rogue further down at 5.4k. They have a ret Paladin at the bottom doing 5.1k

if the third rogue was combat, then you would see him using sinister strike, but instead he used hemorrage few times and no sinister strike, so you are wrong too and the third one is also an hat rogue.

well as for paladin-dps, in the overall-damage done from naxx 25-runs from the beginning to the end i almost every time end up as first place with 1-2% more damage done dann the second place, and thats a real huge difference. retpally just rocks!

[Kishin]

max geared ret palas dont tend to get higher than 5.5k dps at patchwerk whereas other classes can get up to 7k, sad indeed.

Very true.
Which doesn't mean that we/you suck. It's just the Paladins maximum output.
Of course, i dun give a shit about it because people or guilds with a Patchwerk DPS of 6000-7000 are not guys that i, or most of the people roll with.
My Ret is always in the Top 3 and i'm happy about it (with like 4500 Patchwerk dps).

[Zhalseran]

if the third rogue was combat, then you would see him using sinister strike, but instead he used hemorrage few times and no sinister strike, so you are wrong too and the third one is also an hat rogue.

I was refering to the 3rd rogue in the Premonition raid, the one that did 5.4k dps? The 3rd rogue infection linked does seem to be HaT specced and did 6.1k.

Also, overall damage done means even less than a patchwerk speed kill.