3.1 DW dps build.

[Rianabi]

From what i've seen since the release of the (very uncomplete) 3.1 changes, there seems to be alot of QQ over DW being nerfed and frankly i dont see it, sure our build will have to change and the rotation aswell but as far as i see we have been buffed if anything, granted so has 2h unholy wich blizz clearly stated was -NOT- going to get any positive changes since it was already doing so very well.

Just look at some of the changes, we loose Howling blast wich naturally hurts, but the way talents are moved around in frost we can get all the important talents with 28 points, leaving 43 for unholy.

I was thinking along the lines of something like this: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5&version=9614

Let's go over the changes here, black ice down from 30% ice damage to 20%, but we gain 10% shadow damage from it (not on the calculator yet but it's in the patch notes)
Glacier rot up from 10% to 20% ...and we would loose merciless combat (12% more damage on targets below 35% hp... a talent some people skip already in the standard DW builds)

So on the frost talents we are up a total of 10% frost damage (black ice changes canceling each other out more or less)

And for unholy we loose offhand necrosis damage, but Outbreak is suddenly a VERY nice talent giving 45% damage increase to plague strike and 30% to scourge strike, combined with the plague strike glyph and the changes to make this strike actually deal decent damage i'm very excited to see how well it will perform.
What else... aah yes, we loose gargoyle, very sad indeed, but we gain Unholy Blight, slight single target nerf but great AoE dps boost.

The new ghoul frenzy talent seems quite interesting, altho the "channeling" part on it worries me when i look at the calculator, i wont get upset about that one tho until i've seen it for myself tho, would be quite silly if it was channeled after all.

No real change to desecration, and you get the usual Bone Shield and Crypt fever, most standard 32/39 builds dont have full out Crypt fever so that's the first dps gain, along with wandering plague and Scourge strike.

These new talents we get that we couldn't reach with the standard 32/39 build should make up for the offhand necrosis loss and such, if not gain us even more dps, and Scourge strike will be a very nice replacement for Howling blast, with a slow mainhand weapon, the talent changes to buff it's damage, 10% more shadow damage from black ice, i can really see this strike shining even while dual wielding, but i think it's fair to assume that slow main hand will be the prefered thing with a build like this since Scourge, blood and plague strike are all based somewhat on mainhand damage.

So in conclusion we loose Howling blast, gain a buffed Scourge strike, 10% more frost damage than we had before, a vastly improved plague strike, better diseases by a fair bit and we only really loose offhand necrosis damage and Gargoyle (i'm not even sure how much of a dps loss that will be considering Unholy Blight will be up 100% of the time compared to the current 25ish seconds of gargoyle every 3min)

Oh and almost forgot, the new cinderglacier enchant gives the DK a 10% buff to all frost damage, quite nice for an offhand enchant if i do say so myself.

Think we will have to move on to a more 2h unholy type of rotation along the lines of
PS - IT - SS - BS - BS
PS - IT - SS - SS OR IT - IT if killing machine procs... or just always go with the standard double IT on the death runes, might very well, quite likely even would give more damage than one SS, might even be able to skip the SS glyph and epidemic considering how hard PS - IT will hit not and purely have that SS there as a filler for howling blast, but ofcourse rotations will be done to death and i'm sure some pro rotation will come along, but for now i think
PS - IT - SS - BS - BS
PS - IT - SS - IT - IT
Will do quite nicely.

Had nothing better to do and just wanted to try and stop some of the QQ with actually trying to think of a new build and rotation instead of moaning like most other people going "zomg dey messed up my build DW fails forever nau!!!1 /hop on unholy 2h bandwagon"

These changes might not be a buff for DW (altho i certainly suspect it is) but it -certainly- isn't a nerf, change yes, but not a nerf.

[ciopo]

that spec of your will always do better dps using a 2hander, since it rely on scourge strike/ plague strike for actually dealing damage rather than just applying the disease

to reiterate: there is almost NOTHING, that actually affect offhand damage.

it doesn't proc killing machine
it doesn't do necrosis damage anymore
it doesn't contribute to "strike" damage.

personally, if i were to go dual wield, i would try out (yet again), a trispec, to exploit improved unholy presence and an ITX6 rotation
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9614
annihilation for the SOLE purpose of exploiting the dirge+ chill of the grave on obliterate and it generating death runes

[Rianabi]

that spec of your will always do better dps using a 2hander, since it rely on scourge strike/ plague strike for actually dealing damage rather than just applying the disease

The only real change here is Scourge strike instead of Howling blast in the old 32/39 build, most of the damage is still spelldamage, icy touch is actually quite buffed here compared to the old build and the increased PS damage is just icing on the cake, not enough to change to 2h, would you change to a 2h weapon if HB and SS changed place in the old 32/39 build, or would you just change over to a slow mainhand weapon?

Will just have to wait until i get the PTR properly installed before i can test it myself i guess.

[ciopo]

The only real change here is Scourge strike instead of Howling blast in the old 32/39 build, most of the damage is still spelldamage, icy touch is actually quite buffed here compared to the old build and the increased PS damage is just icing on the cake, not enough to change to 2h, would you change to a 2h weapon if HB and SS changed place in the old 32/39 build, or would you just change over to a slow mainhand weapon?

Will just have to wait until i get the PTR properly installed before i can test it myself i guess.

most damage is sitll spelldamage, but regardless of that you WILL be using scourge strike, and it WILL do a good % of your total damage as buffed as it is by taalents, you will be better off using a 2hander, since your offhand gives you... nothing?

to quote my edit on the previous post, if i were to dualwield i would try out again a trispec, to obtain 6 death runes on the second turn, to do ITx6

"personally, if i were to go dual wield, i would try out (yet again), a trispec, to exploit improved unholy presence and an ITX6 rotation
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...0&version=9614
annihilation for the SOLE purpose of exploiting the dirge+ chill of the grave on obliterate and it generating death runes"
this would be IT PS OB BS BS, RP dump
ITx6, RP dump.
with dirge, chill and 4t7, that obliterate would generate 35 runic power, for either UB or DC.. or corpse explosion if you shift one point.
wihtg improved unholy presence, it would be an average of 7 IT per 18 seconds

[Rianabi]

Wait wait wait, you are arguing for a DW build that uses Obliterate, the most weapon damage dependant strike there is, but using SS while dual wielding is unthinkable?

Like you said, what do you gain from that offhand?

Flawed logic is flawed.

[Insan]

since your offhand gives you... nothing?

This mostly. The only thing your offhand gives you is a second rune. If the second rune will compensate for the loss in damage (base damage of 2hnd vs base damage of MH), has yet to be seen. Personally i loved duel wielding as a dk, but since the recent changes it has been dying slowly but steadely.

Edit: Rianabi, please check the talent tree first before making useless comments. He has the "obliterate -> Death runes" talent.

Stupid post is stupid i guess.

[Rianabi]

This mostly. The only thing your offhand gives you is a second rune. If the second rune will compensate for the loss in damage (base damage of 2hnd vs base damage of MH), has yet to be seen. Personally i loved duel wielding as a dk, but since the recent changes it has been dying slowly but steadely.

Edit: Rianabi, please check the talent tree first before making useless comments. He has the "obliterate -> Death runes" talent.

Stupid post is stupid i guess.

No really? i had no clue /sarcasm
What on earth does that have anything to do with the dual wield vs 2h argument?
Ofcourse he has that talent when he wants an IT spam build, the whole point of the original argument was why would you use dual wield when it gives nothing and a 2h weapon will give you higher strikes... then suggesting a build where the exact same thing applies for his build aswell, it's a completely useless argument.

l2read before making smart ass comments, but i dont want to turn this into a flame thread.

Back to the original question, why dual wield when 2h will give you higher strikes?

Most of your damage will come from spelldamage, agreed?
With the new cinderglacier rune granting 10% extra frost damage in an already heavy frost damage build plus the superior white damage will more than make up for the slightly higher SS strikes.

Edit: Oh and i almost forgot, "Personally i loved duel wielding as a dk, but since the recent changes it has been dying slowly but steadely."'

Last i checked DW was still a quite dominant dps spec on live servers... it's been slowly dying now for what... 4 hours? ohnoes! talents and changes we are not even sure are final might... possibly... do something to change what i'm used to?

[Insan]

/facepalm

SS - OB -> You use OB to gain the deathstrikes in DW, you only use it for that, nothgint else. You use SS as main strike. Yes SS is a shadow damage strike, but it works off of your main hand base damage.

And duel wielding has been dying since 3.08, maybe even before that.

Now i`m going to leave this topic alone before i get dragged down by the flameboy and get ownd at his level due to him having more experience at such low levels.

[Rianabi]

/facepalm

SS - OB -> You use OB to gain the deathstrikes in DW, you only use it for that, nothgint else. You use SS as main strike. Yes SS is a shadow damage strike, but it works off of your main hand base damage.

And duel wielding has been dying since 3.08, maybe even before that.

Now i`m going to leave this topic alone before i get dragged down by the flameboy and get ownd at his level due to him having more experience at such low levels.

It's quite funny having someone act elitist towards you when he can barely understand what he's reading, really it's quite entertaining.

His build uses one Oblit every 2 rune cycles, mine uses 2 SS every 2 cycles.

Oblit with glyph uses 120% weapon damage + extra disease damage and what not.
SS uses 55% weapon damage + extra disease damage etc etc.

So... his build is more dependant on mainhand weapon damage than mine, even while only using 1 obliterate every 2 runecycles, but i'm the one being completely wrong here?

It's really amazing how people can read something, get completely attached to the wrong things and start arguing for them, using a 2h weapon in any of these builds was a moot and void point from the start and continuing to argue over it is just silly.

And how on earth has DW dps been dying? 7k dps patchwerk wws logs question your logic, and yes i know meassuring dps on patch is flawed, but it's the same accross the board, DW is doing just as well, and much better in most cases than diseaseless blood and the standard unholy build.

[ciopo]

Most of your damage will come from spelldamage, agreed?
With the new cinderglacier rune granting 10% extra frost damage in an already heavy frost damage build plus the superior white damage will more than make up for the slightly higher SS strikes.

that's why i opted for 6xIT,since 2xIT will always outdamage both obliterate/scourge strike in a dual wield setup, not to mention that they are also more runic power overall.

i do recognize i did the exactly same mind pattern as you, i do 1 obliterate per 2 rune cycles as filler and death runes generation, you do 1 SS per cycle as filler, probalby enough on your spec while dual wielding if you use these SS runes for another IT PS you'd probably end out with more dps, if dualwielding.

that spec of mine probably is, as yours, more effective using a 2handers rather than a dualwield, but on relative usage it's more spellspammer than yours, 7 IT per 18 second compared to 4 IT per 18 second yours do, almost double

[Azazeël]

I was thinking of going something like this http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...=&version=9614.

But then again it all depends on how well 2hand uh performs. With the recent buffs to it i doubt even the old dw specs could surpass the dmg it will do. With the spec 0/20/51 im outperforming most the of 32/39 players on my server. Doing 5-6k on pw depending on the timeframe of the fight. Thou i wont lose much dps from the changes i still dont know if i will be able to compete with 2hand uh.

[Yrim]

I think this whole thread is going in the wrong direction. Your all trying to find out which abilities will cause the most damage; abilities.

Look back at the old DW builds. What caused them to be DW vs 2h. You could have easily moved three points out of DW and put two into 2h while have a left-over. Why didn't we? Because there were other talents that greatly increased the passive white damage of DW (Necrosis and Blood-Caked Blades, along with the change to Killing Machine proc). That passive damage added onto the white damage caused by DW allowed for such a drastic change. Now that they have removed those benefits, there are no areas where using two weapons over-rides using a more powerful 2h weapon.

[Rianabi]

that's why i opted for 6xIT,since 2xIT will always outdamage both obliterate/scourge strike in a dual wield setup, not to mention that they are also more runic power overall.

i do recognize i did the exactly same mind pattern as you, i do 1 obliterate per 2 rune cycles as filler and death runes generation, you do 1 SS per cycle as filler, probalby enough on your spec while dual wielding if you use these SS runes for another IT PS you'd probably end out with more dps, if dualwielding.

that spec of mine probably is, as yours, more effective using a 2handers rather than a dualwield, but on relative usage it's more spellspammer than yours, 7 IT per 18 second compared to 4 IT per 18 second yours do, almost double

Nah, 10% increased frost damage + better white damage will always do more damage than slightly higher weapon damage on a strike we almost never use, especially in your case with the IT spam.

And i thought about adding another IT+PS instead of that SS, but that would make the rotation too long forcing me into unholy presence, wich means i might aswell go with an IT spam build like yours, i'm convinced that both builds could very well work...

My build is basically an attempt to make an exact copy of the standard 32/39 build, wich is proven to work very well, only replacing howling blast with scourge strike... PTR install at 87%, will see soon enough how it works out

[Jopsy]

Has Blizzard killed the DW build? to be honest, It was a useless 5 point talent before the patch, and even worse after. If you have any wws reports of anyone dk dwing, you will see in nearly every break down that Necrosis only accounts for a measly 6% of your overall damage. Now for a 5 point talent, that is just not worth the points, when it could be better spent somewhere else. This also goes for, if not especially for DW Tanking.



This is a dummy test, my gear or build should be irrelevant as Necrosis is a percentage of your auto-attacks (soon to be MH only, pew pew)

Do it yourself and see that you will never get over 6% (and if you do, only barely). prove me wrong by posting please. Remember "5 Talent Points = 6% of overall damage" is not worth it at all.

[Rianabi]

I think this whole thread is going in the wrong direction. Your all trying to find out which abilities will cause the most damage; abilities.

Look back at the old DW builds. What caused them to be DW vs 2h. You could have easily moved three points out of DW and put two into 2h while have a left-over. Why didn't we? Because there were other talents that greatly increased the passive white damage of DW (Necrosis and Blood-Caked Blades, along with the change to Killing Machine proc). That passive damage added onto the white damage caused by DW allowed for such a drastic change. Now that they have removed those benefits, there are no areas where using two weapons over-rides using a more powerful 2h weapon.

You make a good point, but i really dont think the necrosis and blood cakes blade changes is enough motivation to change to a 2h weapon, they were never that big a part of our dps anyways, i really cant see a 2h weapon being more beneficial to a build that barely uses 1 strike that's really dependant on weapon damage, atleast i dont think there will be much if any difference considering the 10% frost damage rune on offhand, that's quite major to a spell damage build like one of these.

But while we are on the subject, i really dont see how these changes can go live, blizz has stated repeatedly that they were happy with unholy and wanted to give people more motivation to spec frost and blood... instead they buff unholy even more, dont really change frost at all as far as real frost dps is concerned, and add some slight changes to blood (altho if those deathstrike changes go through it looks quite promising)

[Rianabi]

Has Blizzard killed the DW build? to be honest, It was a useless 5 point talent before the patch, and even worse after. If you have any wws reports of anyone dk dwing, you will see in nearly every break down that Necrosis only accounts for a measly 6% of your overall damage. Now for a 5 point talent, that is just not worth the points, when it could be better spent somewhere else. This also goes for, if not especially for DW Tanking.



This is a dummy test, my gear or build should be irrelevant as Necrosis is a percentage of your auto-attacks (soon to be MH only, pew pew)

Do it yourself and see that you will never get over 6% (and if you do, only barely). prove me wrong by posting please. Remember "5 Talent Points = 6% of overall damage" is not worth it at all.

Exactly, people are focusing on two of our absolutely lowest DPS abilities getting -slightly- nerfed, and they are calling for the end of days.

Nerfs: Necrosis only effecting mainhand, blood caked blade getting an internal cooldown, gargoyle moved out of the way.

Buffs: Glacier rot giving an extra 10% frost damage, new rune giving another 10% frost damage, able to go deeper down the unholy tree getting your diseases buffed nicely, plague strikes damage upped by a ton, Unholy blight...

The new Scourge strike while dual wielding should deal similar damage to the old Howling blast so there's no real change.

So we are getting nicely buffed in our most damaging abilities... some slight nerfs to the lowest ones, and people are upset?

[ciopo]

The new Scourge strike while dual wielding should deal similar damage to the old Howling blast so there's no real change.

this being my point: equip a 2hander adn it suddently do almost twice, same goes for plague strike and blood strike, losing out 10% frost damage.
i mean, might as well not take scourge strike for 3/3 wandering plague. or a 0/23/48 build with 3/5 rage of rivendare for +6% alldamage, skipping out 15% crit change on IT from rime
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deat...5&version=9614

(early point on unholy are filler, aka necrosis etc, ot reach out higher tiers)