Queston for Arel00

[vayron]

Given what you know thats on live servers now and upcoming in 3.1, do you still see Shred beating Mangle for for DPS/DPE?
Or is a mangle spam + rake/rip and the odd FB the way to go now?

[CSJenova]

Out of curiosity, what is changing about mangle that would make it more DpE efficient then shred?

[arel00]

Oh my, I never thought I'd see a whole thread addressed to me :P

Anyway, to the point. So far, the only change from live to PTR regarding Mangle and Shred is the Shred glyph.
Synergy talents and energy cost are unaffected.

Let's try to understand why Mangle should beat Shred on a DPS side. The reason is simple: finishers are usually the highest DPE moves you can access to. Thus, a faster building of combo points may make a Mangle spamming more DPE convenient, due to the increased number of finishing moves associated with it.
Basically what you're saying is: due to PTR changes, can we expect a finisher-building, Mangle-spam build, to be more effective? To its very core: do Rip and Bite offset Shred's higher base DPE?

The answer is no.
Let's see why.

As Live is, the only situation when you can get a higher return form a finisher-building, Mangle spam build is having 4 parts of T6. The reduced Mangle cost, stacked with Rip increased damage, generates a very high DPE cycle. However, the stat loss is making the line very nebulous.
With 3.1 changes, Rip is able to crit. This would draw us towards the said build, but you have to consider two different things at this point: first, we're talking about Ulduar, and consequently tier 8 raid gear, thus holding back to the equipment configuration that allows us to play such a rotation, namely T6, is greatly gimping your stats. Second, and most important, the Shred glyph.
It adds 6 seconds to Rip, bringing it from 20 to 26, if you count in 2 parts of T7, or from 16 to 22 if you count full T8. That glyph alone is stronger than the T6 bonus: in the first case, 20 to 26, it's a 30% damage increase; in the second case, 16 to 22, is a 37,5% increase. In both cases, we're talking twice more than T6.

What can we get from this: while Mangle spam may seem tempting, and, mind it, it will surely remain in place for those that are bear-specced (e.g. a bear/resto dualspec), it is not convenient for cat specced druids. With 3.1 Shred not only has a higher DPE value by itself, but it also raises by 30-37% the DPE value of Rip, which is by far our strongest move.

I hope this answers your question.

[vayron]

Second question. I don't recall which thread I read this in but I'm fairly sure it was a post of yours that caught my eye. It was about feral DPS changes in 3.1.
I have both feral DPS idols (rip and shred). Currently I believe the Shred idol is better but I could be wrong.
Which is better now, and does that change?
(assume your ideal mangle rake shred to 5 SR repeat Rip repeat Bite/check timers blah blah rotation).

[arel00]

Uhm.. it was on the "New Feral Talent" thread I believe.

Anyway, you're analisys on the current situation hold true. Idol of the Ravenous Beast (shred) idol is, currently, worth more dps-wise than the Idol of Worship (rip). The difference isn't huge but it clearly favors the Shred one.
However, with 3.1 change, Idol of Worship is becoming better. The reason is simply the larger % bleedings, and Rip in particular, get to be due to their crit capability, and, in Rip's case, due to the further increased duration. Again the difference shouldn't be huge, but it will favor Idol of Worship.

[hamaal]

One problem I've found on the PTR: For some reason, Mangle isn't generating any combo points. I'm hoping this is a bug, but if it isn't, that's the end of using any sort of manglespam rotation.

[Antenorra]

One problem I've found on the PTR: For some reason, Mangle isn't generating any combo points. I'm hoping this is a bug, but if it isn't, that's the end of using any sort of manglespam rotation.

I'm getting that, too. I posted on the PTR forum and there are apparently a ton of posts already anyway. Hopefully will be fixed in the next build.

[arel00]

Yes it's officially confirmed to be a bug. It's generation 0 CPs on a non critical strike, and 1 with a critical strike. I'm waiting the next PTR build and a Mangle fix to give updated data about DPS tests.