SoB Recoil post

[Copain]

I'm a great retlol. They just won't bring me to raids, especially not progression, if I'm using SoC. They'll bring my mage instead and get 50% more DPS out of me. (bring the player, ya know).

Not a hard concept to understand, really.

Mana. Battery.

They'll want the higest DPS that is this. So don't assume things =D.

[iktankniet]

Mana. Battery.

They'll want the higest DPS that is this. So don't assume things =D.

its been said a few posts before you. frost mages and warlocks can also get replenishment. although frost mages are less likely to come into raids.

[iktankniet]

I'm a great retlol. They just won't bring me to raids, especially not progression, if I'm using SoC. They'll bring my mage instead and get 50% more DPS out of me. (bring the player, ya know).

Not a hard concept to understand, really.

im doing an average of 5k dps. so you can do 7500 dps?

[belfpala]

Mana. Battery.

They'll want the higest DPS that is this. So don't assume things =D.

I'm talking about my specific situation, not generals. We already have 1+ spriests in our raid, and our hunter isn't sure what spec he'll be (currently sv) after 3.1. We don't need me as a mana battery now. We might need another mana battery in 3.1, depending on what the hunter does and whether the mana battery warlock spec is worth taking for DPS.

im doing an average of 5k dps. so you can do 7500 dps?

I was ballparking figures of 4k and 6k, assuming I was using SoC. I don't know what my Patchwerk DPS would be with SoC. I can hit the magical 5k figure with SoB, and my mage has broken 6k a couple times.

[Fektoer]

Why are people saying that recoil is easy to heal? Ofcourse it is, in current raids which are more or less cakewalks. On PTR stuff gets a lot harder since blizzard wants to put more strain on the healers (instead of having infinite mana palas for example). So combine that strain with increasing recoil damage. Add to that mediocre to low dps... why would they take us again?

And this is only talking about the total amount of self-inflicted damage. The real problem resides in the random nature of raid nukes. Where some boss decides to throw lots of AoE dmg at the raid. So if im at 16k hp from dpsing, take a 10k nuke from a boss i cannot judge without putting myself in grave danger. There is no other class that has to stop dpsing when damaged (warlocks to a much much lesser extent).

It happens already on fights like thaddius, loatheb and gluth. Decimate before judge = dead paladin. Judge when around 10k hp on thaddius, possible a dead pala. 90+% crit on loatheb is more than enough to put me at <5k hp. If i dont get healed to full in between, i have to stop dps'ing. Name me one class that has to do so.

Switching to seal of command is not an argument, since that will ruin our already low dps.

[Voldehmort]

Why are people saying that recoil is easy to heal? Ofcourse it is, in current raids which are more or less cakewalks. On PTR stuff gets a lot harder since blizzard wants to put more strain on the healers (instead of having infinite mana palas for example). So combine that strain with increasing recoil damage. Add to that mediocre to low dps... why would they take us again?

And this is only talking about the total amount of self-inflicted damage. The real problem resides in the random nature of raid nukes. Where some boss decides to throw lots of AoE dmg at the raid. So if im at 16k hp from dpsing, take a 10k nuke from a boss i cannot judge without putting myself in grave danger. There is no other class that has to stop dpsing when damaged (warlocks to a much much lesser extent).

It happens already on fights like thaddius, loatheb and gluth. Decimate before judge = dead paladin. Judge when around 10k hp on thaddius, possible a dead pala. 90+% crit on loatheb is more than enough to put me at <5k hp. If i dont get healed to full in between, i have to stop dps'ing. Name me one class that has to do so.

Switching to seal of command is not an argument, since that will ruin our already low dps.

Agreeing with Fektoer.

I learned the hard way my first time fighting Gluth that when I see my Decimate counter ticking down, I need to stop and not dps at all. The risk is too great, especially when getting better gear, that I will end up killing myself. If it is true that the fights in 3.1 etc are going to be harder on the healers then having a class spec that is basically built around hurting itself in order to do decent dps..that then becomes more of a liability than a boon to the raid. Yes, Replenishment is basically going to be mandatory for raiding but other classes can provide that to the raid...without hurting themselves doing dps.

[Copain]

its been said a few posts before you. frost mages and warlocks can also get replenishment. although frost mages are less likely to come into raids.

Yah, I mentioned the Frost mage one.



Why do people keep claiming we have low DPS? Then again I guess I see most classes say how they are bad and have bad DPS or something... But a Ret Pally can, like said by iktankniet do 5K DPS, and I've seen higher than that before, which is in way bad. Yeah, if you switch to something like Seal of Command or Seal or Righteousness, you Might lose DPS, but I don't think you'd get halfed or become useless. LIke I said, our Ret Pally, in ten man gear, deals 3700 DPS, and about 3200 W/O Seal of Blood. Claiming that a Ret Pally will be useless and stuff is just ranting over something that isn't true.

People have said how Seal of Blood wil lgive More damage thanks to the better gear in Ulduar; this is true, I do not disagree. However, you also get more STA from gear, so you'll have more HP to dampan that blow, which negates the whole "I take more damage" part.

[belfpala]

Why do people keep claiming we have low DPS?

Under a specific set of conditions, we do. The conditions are: a full raid of skilled players all with mostly BiS items. This will be the state of many or most good raiding guilds doing Ulduar progression.

Under those conditions, I can hit 5k dps on patchwerk. This is not "bad" at all. It's great, imo. It just happens that relative to everyone else, it's pretty low. I've seen a Fury warrior at 7.7k dps on patch before he had to stop dps to wait for threat. My own mage can do 6k.

The contention isn't that we do "bad" dps, it's that we do sub par dps when measured against comparable players in comparable gear.

People have said how Seal of Blood wil lgive More damage thanks to the better gear in Ulduar; this is true, I do not disagree. However, you also get more STA from gear, so you'll have more HP to dampan that blow, which negates the whole "I take more damage" part.

As someone who also occasionally tanks, I know the fallacy of stam stacking. You simply become a mana sponge. And that's precisely part of the problem, or potential problem, motivating this thread.

[Copain]

Under a specific set of conditions, we do. The conditions are: a full raid of skilled players all with mostly BiS items. This will be the state of many or most good raiding guilds doing Ulduar progression.

Under those conditions, I can hit 5k dps on patchwerk. This is not "bad" at all. It's great, imo. It just happens that relative to everyone else, it's pretty low. I've seen a Fury warrior at 7.7k dps on patch before he had to stop dps to wait for threat. My own mage can do 6k.

The contention isn't that we do "bad" dps, it's that we do sub par dps when measured against comparable players in comparable gear.

As someone who also occasionally tanks, I know the fallacy of stam stacking. You simply become a mana sponge. And that's precisely part of the problem, or potential problem, motivating this thread.

I won't claim that we are the highest on the charts all the time, but I will say that we are still more important. Mages who spec Frost for the Replenish lose a good amount of DPS compared to Frostfire. As I said before, Priest going Shadow doesn't seem popular lately (Not saying they are low, but I have yet to see one match a Ret Pallies DPS =\, might have been gear though), I don't know which lock spec is going to be the raid spec and if they will grab their replenish, so I can't say anything about them since the patch isn't out.

You may deal a tad less DPS, which we still aren't sure on since apparently the ret tree is getting some big changes, but you still have use. Dealing 6K DPS and bringing buffs and Mana help compared to someone who deals 7K DPS makes you much more useful.

[belfpala]

You may deal a tad less DPS, which we still aren't sure on since apparently the ret tree is getting some big changes, but you still have use. Dealing 6K DPS and bringing buffs and Mana help compared to someone who deals 7K DPS makes you much more useful.

I've already said in this thread that I'm speaking to my specific situation. In my raiding group, my most important buffs will be there with or without me. I've also been careful to characterize the issue as a potential problem rather than something game-breaking.

Anyway, I've said what I have to say. IRL is calling.

[Copain]

I've already said in this thread that I'm speaking to my specific situation. In my raiding group, my most important buffs will be there with or without me. I've also been careful to characterize the issue as a potential problem rather than something game-breaking.

Anyway, I've said what I have to say. IRL is calling.

Yah I got to go after this too.

It's true for you that buffs might not be there, but for smaller raids/guilds they typically won't be. That said, a bigger guild might just want the DPS like you say.

[iktankniet]

some weeks ago i used judgement of corruption on loatheb because we did spore loser.

http://wowwebstats.com/hvnia1c1ld3wq?s=626143-678899

just under 3700 dps with it. with SoB i could make 5k easily. specially because of the crit buff. but because of the debuff i have to stop dps or else i would kill myself with the recoil. there is a big difference between these 2 seals alone. next time ill try to use SoC instead to see the difference.

my best patchwerk dps is also in this wws. RNG crits ftw

[Vasti]

The recoil needs to go!
I favor:

SoB recoil damage replaced with, Increases damage taken by 5% (or higher number, wahtever prevents us from using it in pvp but at the same time is doable for pve)

edit: and to make up for mana regen loss which we got when we got healed for the recoil damage, JotW needs a % upping and prefferably make casting judgements mana free (hate it when npc's drain me to 0 mana and I cant judge to regain mana :S)

[tjanson]

The recoil needs to go!
I favor:

SoB recoil damage replaced with, Increases damage taken by 5% (or higher number, wahtever prevents us from using it in pvp but at the same time is doable for pve)

I like this idea, actually. Also, give us our JotW mana regen back. Doesn't have to be 33% like it was, but something better than 15% would be nice.

[mickj]

I agree that this could potentially be a big problem. It's not gamebreaking by any means right now because of the content difficulty, but given Blizz's mantra of trying to stress healers out, this could become very problematic. We are definitely the DPS that requires the most baby-sitting (aside from people who stand in the fire), and we will become less desirable if guilds decide that the baby-sitting isn't worth the things we bring, particularly if they are going to be tuning encounters to the point where taking unnecessary damage results in wipes/deaths.

Also the suggestion of just using SoC or any other seal (or just seal twisting mid-fight) on progression fights is laughable. I'll just do 400-1000 less dps on progression content, my guild will have no problem with that I'm sure. Most likely, they'll just find someone else who can do equal or more dps than me.

There probably should be still some sort of penalty. As someone suggested maybe taking 5-10% more damage debuff when the seal is active probably would fit the bill, ala warrior beserker stance.

[greatrichie]

Just to throw this out there, anyone claiming we're fine when it comes to Blood recoil is basing their claim off what is probably the easiest tier of raiding in the history of WoW. This discussion isn't about "We should change things for Naxx", this is a look to our future. A future that honestly looks bleak at best when it comes to Rets viability in progression. Mind you this does not mean the casual guilds that could care less if they carry someone with crap for DPS. Most bigger guilds will not carry dead weight in the race to progress, it's inefficient. Why bring a Ret pally who has to sacrifice DPS (because thats what it is, when we're balanced around SoB) just to live, when you can bring another class that is self sufficient AND does more DPS while doing so? The argument that we'll be fine to use SoB when everything is on farm is the most ridiculous argument ever. What that says is, "don't bring ret pallies until everythings already cleared". Progression is what is important in this game raiding-wise to most people. Once it's on farm content it's not near as fun. What you're asking is for pallies to sit out on the bread and butter of raiding.

[locustreign]

...and those adds on Razuvious.

put a quick end to our immortal run

[Malechi]

There probably should be still some sort of penalty. As someone suggested maybe taking 5-10% more damage debuff when the seal is active probably would fit the bill, ala warrior beserker stance.

Ya, I made a similar post here:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=42803.0

but not much of a positive response from it overall.

[greatrichie]

uhm... I crit for 14-15k+ quite often with wings.

[belfpala]

Spiritual Attunement: Removed from trainers. It is now available deep in the Protection tree for 2 ranks at 5/10%.

Well, now the main justification for SoB recoil damage is gone. I have no clue what to make of this, really.