Uldar. Gonna be really hard?

[Xombo]

Yes, there should be a solution to about every thinkable scenario.
But since we don't know why he can't use addons or Vent, it's not possible to say how or even if it's possible to solve.

Warning! Insane overblown theory incoming, not for the feint of heart or those that take everything litteraly.
Might be that he needs a new computer, but can't buy one because all of his money go to his mothers cancer-treatment.
You look down on people who don't go hardcore and do it successfully?

I don't really wanna to pick a fight here, but you and i seem to be polar opposites.


EDIT:I posted before i saw this post.
I don't care what people think about me.
The thing here is that other people in this thread got looked down upon for things they might not be able to control. I'm just trying to defend the weaker person here since i feel that the previous flame was completely uncalled for.

My post wasn't pointed towards you.

The whole "no-mods-or-vent-shouldn't-raid" bs is rediculous. I think that the people who can be successful at this should be seen as *more* deserving to be in raids than the others. It's like telling a golfer shooting 65s on the PGA tour that he should gtfo because he's using hickory shafts and polymer heads on his clubs. Stupid elitists.

[Vakir]

My post wasn't pointed towards you.

The whole "no-mods-or-vent-shouldn't-raid" bs is rediculous. I think that the people who can be successful at this should be seen as *more* deserving to be in raids than the others. It's like telling a golfer shooting 65s on the PGA tour that he should gtfo because he's using hickory shafts and polymer heads on his clubs. Stupid elitists.

Mods, sure, MAYBE. If you can time the abilities perfectly fine to your own ability without any reminder and constantly get around everything, more power to you, but it means you get less lenience if you ever fuck up. And since everyone fucks up once, without fail, it means you will get shit talked moreso than if you did have mods. "You weren't paying attention so you didn't see the polarity shift? A lot of fucking good that does us, another Immortal week wasted. Get DBM, like the yell the boss does wasn't obvious enough."

Vent? No. Never. Raiding is partly a social activity and a good part of the enjoyment of the game functions as being in a social environment, not slamming away at keys like a piddling little shit at your keyboard, looting, and then logging out for the next 4 hour session. You will find any GOOD guild, including any GOOD elitist guild, wants you to be part of the guild and community and not just show up to kill dragons, which entails talking to people. Elitist Jerks immediately denies people that are "hired guns" that just show up and play, and don't talk, socialize, enjoy, or become part of a functioning group of people.

If a fight can be easy enough to kill easily in a few tries without any kind of communication at all among the raiders through a quick medium like vent, it means the fight is probably undertuned in something like Ulduar which is a tier higher than the facerollfest that was Naxx. Easy as the fights are, from my experience (with the exception of Leviathan) it would probably help for most of the existing fights to talk on vent.

It's nothing like your PGA analogy, it's more like being "competitive" while golfing completely alone. Fucking get on vent, you socially inhibited bastard player I don't know, probably smarter than I. Nothing elitist about it.

[coolcatchris]

according to one of the live ptr feed i watched, where they did the faceless general, there was some trash and the guys from numen (i think) said that trash is alot like sunwell. bring it on. i for one, quite enjoy the trash killing, right up there with bosses. what awesome adventurer would want to just kill bosses without first making their minions weep?

[Vakir]

according to one of the live ptr feed i watched, where they did the faceless general, there was some trash and the guys from numen (i think) said that trash is alot like sunwell. bring it on. i for one, quite enjoy the trash killing, right up there with bosses. what awesome adventurer would want to just kill bosses without first making their minions weep?

Apparently it's really brutal. Something about a pack going immune until you kill off an extra spawned add.

It's a little odd that trash would be so difficult but the bosses are apparently still easy (though from my experience definitely several dozen cuts above Naxx). Maybe the bosses aren't as tuned as they're intended to be. Granted, it still took +160 stats and 13% more stats on each Ensidia member to kill General's hard mode. So maybe they are tuned as hard as they're meant to be. :-\

[Mowg]

If anyone saw my post pre-deletion - that was satire and definitely not something I agree with. Just in case I offended anyone with it 8)

[Vakir]

On topic: Ulduar will be harder, but not incredibly. Blue's said that a tank in full blue's could prolly do fine.

How did I miss this one? Nipping it right now: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/1567...nongeared.html

You might not be able to step into Ulduar in blue gear

Can't do Ulduar in blues. GTFO.

If anyone saw my post pre-deletion - that was satire and definitely not something I agree with. Just in case I offended anyone with it 8)

Yeeeah. Seemed a little TOO extreme.

[Vanesa]

So what are your thoughts on uldar?
Will it only be really wow gamers that will be able to do it?
the top guilds only doing it? or all?
Much harder thanx naxx hc??

i think you will need good players. not necessarily good gear, but no greens

[Vakir]

Good guilds will clear it in their first raid ID.
The average guilds will clear it on their second raid ID.
PUGS will clear it on the 3rd week raid ID.

Scrubs will still complain that they cant get "teh purplez" and carry on ruining the game for the rest of us :-\

Source on this information, oh future-seeing prophet?

[Mowg]

Yeeeah. Seemed a little TOO extreme.

Point still stands though. People are free to play their game however they like, if they can't down Grobbulus or if they're under a certain circumstance that doesn't allow them to use Mods/Vent - they shouldn't be chastised and restricted. They pay as much for the subscription as the next guy and I don't see anywhere in Blizzards policy that Player A must use Mod B to be eligible for Raid C - Blizzard creates each Raid with No Mod in mind. Mods are there to make things easier, they're not there to make things possible.

[Vakir]

Point still stands though. People are free to play their game however they like, if they can't down Grobbulus or if they're under a certain circumstance that doesn't allow them to use Mods/Vent - they shouldn't be chastised and restricted. They pay as much for the subscription as the next guy and I don't see anywhere in Blizzards policy that Player A must use Mod B to be eligible for Raid C - Blizzard creates each Raid with No Mod in mind. Mods are there to make things easier, they're not there to make things possible.

I already explained why not having vent is inexcusable barring if maybe your motherboard was a living entity that was fatally allergic to it or something.

[Mandible]

"Point still stands though. People are free to play their game however they like"

Yes, under the conditions of the game - not a self proclaimed "I want to see stuff, so gimme gimme gimme". I have to say I haven't seen any other game - that I remember - that catered so much to making the game easier (to the breach of boredom). Overall its fine, but seems to be a bad excuse for not having enough to do or just an attempt to keep people in the game without a real balance.
"Hard" modes may be ok, but as it stands right now there isn't any real reason to do them besides epeen, and from what I see there are alot who don't care about that after a week or two. Ofc. if fragments drop 100% from hard modes, and lower on normal its another matter.

Regarding vent - its perfectly doable without as long as your raid got half a brain to look whats happening, but most people unfortunately needs to be told where to go.

[Mowg]

And people have already made legitimate arguments against that. He could be a young teen using the family PC and is unable to download any extra software/use extra hardware (regardless of what you say, young-teens have the right to raid), he might be y'know, mute? (I guess mute people don't deserve "epix") etc.

As for your Internet Cafe remark - actually you're dead wrong. I worked for a franchise in the UK and although WoW was pretty damn popular in our gaming cafe's around the UK, it was still a shadow to all the FPS's combined (of which Counter Strike and Source dominated) and to top it all off, it was company policy to include a deleting mechanism upon shut-down that wiped everything on the HDD bar the essentials (such as Games, Save folders, OS etc.) and customers were unable to download unless supervised by a member of staff. Case in point, no one bothered with Add-Ons in our cafe's.

People have their reasons, but they all deserve the same content.

[arel00]

First: Ulduar *is* easy. Those of us who are on the PTR can tell you that. No, we're not all Ensidia. Yes, 90% of the Ulduar testers are Twilight Vanquishers, Nightfall or Immortal. That doesn't make you pro, just states how many people can clear the current content. Which is, by far, too easy.

Second: noone ever said that casuals can't clear the game. I raid on average one or two nights a week, three when progressing. We did the same during TBC. We ended up at M'uru before the uber nerf called 3.0 hit. Casuals could kill Illidan, they could progress through Sunwell aswell. Now casuals can clear the current content, 3D included, with way less effort than playing Guitare Hero :P

Third: if you can't clear Naxxramas now, you're bad. You can raid one or seven days a week, you're still bad. OP said he raided for 3 days the last 3 weeks. That makes it 9 days of tries, which is plenty of time to clear it completely. If the top DPS can't break 3k, then they're just bad. Our top DPS at the time, a FFB mage, broke 4k in raid. And FFB is not exactly what I'd call a hard dps spec. Our tanks were almost all blue, me included. You just have no excuses.

Last: Ulduar will be a step up from Naxx. That doesn't make it hard. It just makes it less easy. I know at least 10 people who stopped playing because of this. "What, we raid 2 weeks than it's farming for months again? No thanks". Again, we're NOT Ensidia, far form being. And yet, people get bored.
Now I wonder: is it really worth it to bore so many people, casuals included over and over, just to cope with BAD players? If you can't tune things like in Vanilla, to be honest I'd rather have TBC system: tune it hard, then nerf it to the ground after months, when people that like challenge already had fun. At least we won't get bored.

[Gron]

Arel, Mandible,

I agree with your posts 100%.

By the way does such posts get sent to Blizzard forums, or they just ignore these?
I know we can't please everyone, but you can do different difficulty levels for encounters, like very very easy (should be 10-man), medium (should be harder, 25-man), and hardmodes (Sarth 3D type encounters, and more of them). I would even add a Superior difficulty level for the hardcore raiders for 5-man or 25 man content on top.

[Demik]

No use speculating how hard it'll be, we'll find out in a few weeks. Hard is a relative term. Most guilds (like mine) are going to clear it after the strategies are posted on websites and DBM or Big Wigs is updated. It's not that hard to execute a strategy as a group once you are told exactly what to do and when. Copying off the smart kid in class doesn't make you smart, but your test scores will give the illusion that you are.

People are going to complain either way. It's too easy, or people that aren't even in naxx25 gear will say it's too hard. It's not going to be t6 difficult, so all the "I'm hot shit" players will still say it's too easy, nothing will be hard enough until it's harder than Sunwell, apparently. Personally, i'd rather my guild learn the fights and wipe a bunch than to run through it quick trying to compete with the realm's other guilds. If it takes 3-4 weeks, fine. It's more fun that way and stretches out the content. No one will do that though. As soon as those strategies are posted, watch out for the "OMGtooeasy!" posts flooding the forums. There will be an eerie silence before that while everyone is wiping on the bosses that weren't PTR tested already and the only bitching will be about class changes.

[Vakir]

"Hard" modes may be ok, but as it stands right now there isn't any real reason to do them besides epeen, and from what I see there are alot who don't care about that after a week or two. Ofc. if fragments drop 100% from hard modes, and lower on normal its another matter.

Regarding vent - its perfectly doable without as long as your raid got half a brain to look whats happening, but most people unfortunately needs to be told where to go.

1. Hard modes reward better loot, so no. It's not just e-peen.
2. Fragments better drop EXCLUSIVELY for hard mode or I will be upset. That or Yogg-Saron needs to be ridiculously difficult. I should not see bad guilds with a Val'anyr.
3. If you are only on vent to be told where to go, I feel horrible for you and your guild as a social entity.

First: Ulduar *is* easy. Those of us who are on the PTR can tell you that. No, we're not all Ensidia. Yes, 90% of the Ulduar testers are Twilight Vanquishers, Nightfall or Immortal. That doesn't make you pro, just states how many people can clear the current content. Which is, by far, too easy.

Second: noone ever said that casuals can't clear the game. I raid on average one or two nights a week, three when progressing. We did the same during TBC. We ended up at M'uru before the uber nerf called 3.0 hit. Casuals could kill Illidan, they could progress through Sunwell aswell. Now casuals can clear the current content, 3D included, with way less effort than playing Guitare Hero :P

Third: if you can't clear Naxxramas now, you're bad. You can raid one or seven days a week, you're still bad. OP said he raided for 3 days the last 3 weeks. That makes it 9 days of tries, which is plenty of time to clear it completely. If the top DPS can't break 3k, then they're just bad. Our top DPS at the time, a FFB mage, broke 4k in raid. And FFB is not exactly what I'd call a hard dps spec. Our tanks were almost all blue, me included. You just have no excuses.

Last: Ulduar will be a step up from Naxx. That doesn't make it hard. It just makes it less easy. I know at least 10 people who stopped playing because of this. "What, we raid 2 weeks than it's farming for months again? No thanks". Again, we're NOT Ensidia, far form being. And yet, people get bored.
Now I wonder: is it really worth it to bore so many people, casuals included over and over, just to cope with BAD players? If you can't tune things like in Vanilla, to be honest I'd rather have TBC system: tune it hard, then nerf it to the ground after months, when people that like challenge already had fun. At least we won't get bored.

Yeah, it is. It's really all up to hard mode to save it. I think it will. If you calculate the existing passive buffs we know the bosses will get and add it to the damage they currently have on the PTR, with no nerfs it seems like the bosses will be EXTREMELY hard until people are geared to the teeth, and that's just what we already know.

Yeah, the old TBC system would be better for us, but it would also be counterproductive and just piss off the same people. I'd prefer they just have a separate tier system for hard mode bosses so not everyone is wearing the same thing in Dalaran. That and make hard mode actually very hard.

[Mowg]

"Point still stands though. People are free to play their game however they like"

Yes, under the conditions of the game - not a self proclaimed "I want to see stuff, so gimme gimme gimme". I have to say I haven't seen any other game - that I remember - that catered so much to making the game easier (to the breach of boredom). Overall its fine, but seems to be a bad excuse for not having enough to do or just an attempt to keep people in the game without a real balance.
"Hard" modes may be ok, but as it stands right now there isn't any real reason to do them besides epeen, and from what I see there are alot who don't care about that after a week or two. Ofc. if fragments drop 100% from hard modes, and lower on normal its another matter.

Regarding vent - its perfectly doable without as long as your raid got half a brain to look whats happening, but most people unfortunately needs to be told where to go.

To be honest, I've rarely (if ever) seen these' so-called casuals complain about difficulty or shout "Gimme gimme gimme, we want free epix!". Any time we heard people whining about difficulty was actually legitimate in BC. This, "casual whining" malarky seems to be a notion created by whining hardcore players. Blizzard didn't listen to "whining" casuals, they didn't need to - they knew something was a bit wrong when 95% of their total userbase didn't even see something that took months of dev-time. If you think content is getting too easy, then maybe other MMO's such as FFXI would be good for you, seeing as though that seems to include some very hardcore elements. This just seems to be a way for Blizzard to open up Raiding to the casuals and slowly take them up to epic levels without requiring crappy time-consuming attunements that require absolutely no skill (except copious amounts of free-time) or silly resistance gear, which also requires less skill and more time more than anything else.

[Deleted]

1. Hard modes reward better loot, so no. It's not just e-peen.
2. Fragments better drop EXCLUSIVELY for hard mode or I will be upset. That or Yogg-Saron needs to be ridiculously difficult. I should not see bad guilds with a Val'anyr.
3. If you are only on vent to be told where to go, I feel horrible for you and your guild as a social entity.

Loot isn't epeen? I must have misread the game manual.

Tell you what though, I was hardcore raiding pre-bc. Remember when you had 40 people in a single raid and weren't overgearing the instance unless you had done it for months?
Being just rightly geared give you a weakness. You don't have the right to make an error anymore. Heigan was one strike and dead, not the 3-4 hits you can take today (and that's as mage). Today you got heroic loot, badges, etc etc. It's not a bad thing, but you're given a lot more margin than ever before. You won't be noticed if you screw up.

That wasn't the case pre bc. You had people pointing fingers at eachother. I remember a bunch of those who couldn't for anyone's sake spread correctly at C'Thun, move decently at Heigan, not be bad at Thaddius... make a damn circle at GEDDON.

I remember all their names. Today they're pointing fingers. Saying raiding is so easy, and anyone who screws up is bad and has no brain.

I'll be surprised if they improved. At all.

[arel00]

To be honest, I've rarely (if ever) seen these' so-called casuals complain about difficulty or shout "Gimme gimme gimme, we want free epix!". Any time we heard people whining about difficulty was actually legitimate in BC. This, "casual whining" malarky seems to be a notion created by whining hardcore players. Blizzard didn't listen to "whining" casuals, they didn't need to - they knew something was a bit wrong when 95% of their total userbase didn't even see something that took months of dev-time. If you think content is getting too easy, then maybe other MMO's such as FFXI would be good for you, seeing as though that seems to include some very hardcore elements. This just seems to be a way for Blizzard to open up Raiding to the casuals and slowly take them up to epic levels without requiring crappy time-consuming attunements that require absolutely no skill (except copious amounts of free-time) or silly resistance gear, which also requires less skill and more time more than anything else.

Sorry for the straightforward, impolite term, but... bullshit.
WoW has millions of customers. You can't compare it to any game that has less than a third of its players. Besides, you said that buying WoW gives you the right to see all the content? Then why not start at level 80 and tune every dungeon in game for the same level?
If you can manage it, you see it and you get your purplez. Else, you stfu and lose. I don't think everyone deserved to kill KJ, not even to see him tbh. There HAS to be a line somewhere, splitting decent players from retards.
I agree only on one thing: it's not the casuals whining. It's the bad players. Bad players that often raid more than us casuals.

[Vakir]

Loot isn't epeen? I must have misread the game manual.

Yes, your success on Brutallus was determined by how big your epeen was, not by how geared you were. :

You misread common sense, if that's possible. Better gear exists for superior progression.

Easy mode loot will gear you for the next tier of easy modes. Hard mode loot will gear you for the next tier of hard modes. I don't expect anyone in Naxx gear to be able to drop the most difficult "hard mode" encounter in 3.2 no matter how easy 3.2 is on easy mode.

Hard modes exist for fun challenges and, if you get everything done, another stupid drake, which is your epeen.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Gear = progression. Epeen is secondary, it's just sadly the only thing people notice.

Tell you what though, I was hardcore raiding pre-bc. Remember when you had 40 people in a single raid and weren't overgearing the instance unless you had done it for months?

Overgearing only being a relative statement just because you had more people and there was a crappy reward module? Yes, I do remember that. Thanks for reminding me of why 40 mans sucked!

Being just rightly geared give you a weakness. You don't have the right to make an error anymore. Heigan was one strike and dead, not the 3-4 hits you can take today (and that's as mage). Today you got heroic loot, badges, etc etc. It's not a bad thing, but you're given a lot more margin than ever before. You won't be noticed if you screw up.

So now that people are actually getting rewarded for their progress and the reward to time invested is less forgiving, things are less fucking obnoxious and encounters that are already learned are getting beaten at a more consistent rate?

HEAVEN FORBID. Also, invite me to your rose tinted dream, because I recall 5 remaining people kills of Heigan persisting for 10 minutes after the original 35 died even in classic Naxx.

That wasn't the case pre bc. You had people pointing fingers at eachother. I remember a bunch of those who couldn't for anyone's sake spread correctly at C'Thun, move decently at Heigan, not be bad at Thaddius... make a damn circle at GEDDON.

The only encounter I know anyone who was pointed fingers at in any of that was C'Thun. I stand by the fact that C'Thun was the only encounter worth giving a shit about in that completely sloppy and utterly broken piece of garbage that was "classic" that we tolerated purely because it was new and exciting at the time and then look on fondly with nostalgia when it was the epitome of shitty game design.

You could do Thaddius once you had the broken flight attendant mod and got by ridiculous amounts of lag that still persisted into early Wrath (inb4 "yeah well we didn't use mods, we're hardcore like that"), you could still drag your broken, bleeding leg through Heigan with a handful of people up and still get a kill.

I remember all their names. Today they're pointing fingers. Saying raiding is so easy, and anyone who screws up is bad and has no brain.

I'll be surprised if they improved. At all.

Well seeing as how everyone's human and makes mistakes, I'm pretty sure everyone pointed fingers at one time or another. Fortunately nothing in Wrath at the moment is anywhere near classic Gothik or C'Thun, so we can let them simmer in their ignorance until Blizzard makes the new hard boss, if they ever do at all. Let's see where Algalon gets us.