Spiritual Attunement Gone in latest PTR

[Lightstrike]

Okay...

Well as of right now (pre-patch), I RARELY use Divine plea, typically on trash. Mana isn't a problem for a Pally. Sure SA helps that, I won't lie. And lossing it is going to suck. But if I'm going to be using DP that's going to dampen the blow, maybe even Null it.

Just use Seal of Wisdowm / Judge of wisom or something, I use them some times and I never lose agro.

We shouldn't be forced to use Seal of Wisdom to eb able to tank, just like we shouldn't have to glyph Divine plea.

Glyphs and Seals are choices, what's the point in giving us glyph slots if we're going to need to use a certain glyph to be able to perform a role, isn't that what talents are for?

Edit:
Further angeryman calculations show that even with JoW proccing for 100% with a 1.5second swing timer, we'd still lose 500 mana per 15 seconds. We'd go oom in approx 165 seconds (2 mins 25 secs)

[Copain]

We shouldn't be forced to use Seal of Wisdom to eb able to tank, just like we shouldn't have to glyph Divine plea.

Glyphs and Seals are choices, what's the point in giving us glyph slots if we're going to need to use a certain glyph to be able to perform a role, isn't that what talents are for?

Edit:
Further angeryman calculations show that even with JoW proccing for 100% with a 1.5second swing timer, we'd still lose 500 mana per 15 seconds. We'd go oom in approx 165 seconds (2 mins 25 secs)

Also gota calculate Buffs giving mana. BoS give mana back according to Max mana after buffs. So AI, Kings, GoTW, ect ect will be giving us more mana back from BoSanc; and swing speed can varry for tanks, I believe mine is about 1.3.

You aren't being FORCED TO use it, it's just an idea. Like healers using Light/Wis for healing with the glyph, or DPS using Seal of Blood. The choice results neverr were high. It's unlikely you'd use Seal of Righteousness or Seal of the Martyr to Tank; typically not SoL either.

We still aren't for sure if SA is gone for sure anyway, lets see what the results are before we argue over things we can't confirm. I know you think tanks will have mana issues, and I think we won't, but I know I c an't confirm it tell I actually go out and try it.

[Lightstrike]

Further angeryman math:

Without using consecration in the rotation, in 15 seconds we would use 66% of our mana.

Using consecration we end up using 92% of our mana.

On the second set of 15 seconds we use 112% of our mana.

So.. In order for divine plea to pull us even, with bosanc providing 12% mana regen in 15 seconds (assuming you are blockcapped), the glyph would need to change divine plea to restore at least 75% of mana over 15 seconds, tripling its effectiveness.

Also gota calculate Buffs giving mana. BoS give mana back according to Max mana after buffs. So AI, Kings, GoTW, ect ect will be giving us more mana back from BoSanc; and swing speed can varry for tanks, I believe mine is about 1.3.

You aren't being FORCED TO use it, it's just an idea. Like healers using Light/Wis for healing with the glyph, or DPS using Seal of Blood. The choice results neverr were high. It's unlikely you'd use Seal of Righteousness or Seal of the Martyr to Tank; typically not SoL either.

We still aren't for sure if SA is gone for sure anyway, lets see what the results are before we argue over things we can't confirm. I know you think tanks will have mana issues, and I think we won't, but I know I c an't confirm it tell I actually go out and try it.

As stated before, if we literally need a second paladin to buff BoK, a mage to buff int and a druid to buff MotW just to make it so we can tank, then something is wrong. We shouldn't need 3 specific classes to make us viable, you can add in a shaman or third paladin for BoW/totem too if you want, then every paladin tank that want's to do a heroic is stuck with the same group make-up.

In a 10 man that's half the raid taken up just so I am able to tank it.

For Jow I was giving a best case scenario, JoW is no where near a 100% proc rate.

What I am getting at, is that it isn't as if it's a choice.. like we can have SA or DP+glyph.

The choice is DP+glyph or nothing, and with "nothing" we have hardly any mana return at all. We might just be able to get enough back to sustain us with SoW and JoW procs, but even then we're gimping our threat in order to stop us running oom.

[Copain]

We still aren't for sure if SA is gone for sure anyway, lets see what the results are before we argue over things we can't confirm. I know you think tanks will have mana issues, and I think we won't, but I know I c an't confirm it tell I actually go out and try it.

[Lightstrike]

Of course it's an if situation, but I think it better to treat these situations as fact at first and prove them to be rubbish in order to suggest how to make them viable.. rather than to assume it's a bug and then getting the nerfbat to the face and not being able to tank properly until the next patch.

[cappytoi]

Also gota calculate Buffs giving mana. BoS give mana back according to Max mana after buffs. So AI, Kings, GoTW, ect ect will be giving us more mana back from BoSanc; and swing speed can varry for tanks, I believe mine is about 1.3.

You aren't being FORCED TO use it, it's just an idea. Like healers using Light/Wis for healing with the glyph, or DPS using Seal of Blood. The choice results neverr were high. It's unlikely you'd use Seal of Righteousness or Seal of the Martyr to Tank; typically not SoL either.

We still aren't for sure if SA is gone for sure anyway, lets see what the results are before we argue over things we can't confirm. I know you think tanks will have mana issues, and I think we won't, but I know I c an't confirm it tell I actually go out and try it.

DP only solves the mana problem for offtanking situations but it doesn't cover our mana needs with BoSanc. I completely agree with Lightstrike.

Why we need a blessing for ourselves to generate mana? Since BoSanc is not viable for other tanks anymore, it should definitly be changed to a passive ability or a buff like RF or be added to RF. We also suffer 50% healing penalty from our own healing abilities while DP is up. I have found this new mana solution completely retarded and broken.

[shadet]

We shouldn't be forced to use Seal of Wisdom to eb able to tank, just like we shouldn't have to glyph Divine plea.

Glyphs and Seals are choices, what's the point in giving us glyph slots if we're going to need to use a certain glyph to be able to perform a role, isn't that what talents are for?

You are not forced to use SoW to be able to tank
You are not forced to glyph Divine Plea to tank
However, you may perform better as a tank with these!

This is the same for every class and spec. There are Glyphs, talents, spells that will affect how you play, if you use them then you will be better, if you don't use them you will be worse. It's rare you hear a Disc Priest saying "I shouldn't be forced to use Penance to Heal", Shadow Priests saying "I shouldn't be forced to use Shadow Word: Pain to do dps." You seem to be getting way to caught up in the "Bring the player not the class" idea and taking it one step further. Sure I can spec a pally full holy, put on tank gear and tank, however I won't be as effective as a Prot Pally.

[Krakenskulls]

not sure if its been said here yet, but blizz specifically said in a post that they are decreasing spiritual attunement's effect on holy paladins. Ret and prot should be staying the same.

Reason being is that when a holy pally recieves a heal in a raid, that combined with whatever else is helping his mana regen is adding up too much mana back, therefore basically allowing him unlimited heals.

[Copain]

Of course it's an if situation, but I think it better to treat these situations as fact at first and prove them to be rubbish in order to suggest how to make them viable.. rather than to assume it's a bug and then getting the nerfbat to the face and not being able to tank properly until the next patch.

Notice how some people say they have it? Bliz does stupid stuff, but they've never made it so a class couldn't do their job... If it's going to be nerfed there will still be something to balance it. It's the PTR for a reason. It's not out yet, it's not done yet, don't be another troll going "I know I'm going to Reroll to do (your job here)" or "I'm quiting because they've ruined my class." T H E P T R I S F O R T E S T I N G.

[Lightstrike]

You are not forced to use SoW to be able to tank
You are not forced to glyph Divine Plea to tank
However, you may perform better as a tank with these!

This is the same for every class and spec. There are Glyphs, talents, spells that will affect how you play, if you use them then you will be better, if you don't use them you will be worse. It's rare you hear a Disc Priest saying "I shouldn't be forced to use Penance to Heal", Shadow Priests saying "I shouldn't be forced to use Shadow Word: Pain to do dps." You seem to be getting way to caught up in the "Bring the player not the class" idea and taking it one step further. Sure I can spec a pally full holy, put on tank gear and tank, however I won't be as effective as a Prot Pally.

I'm sorry but what..?

We'll perform better with them? Without glyphed divine plea or jow/sow.. We use 92% of our base mana in 15 seconds of rotation.. BoSanc, which is basically a self-buff that will be required but takes up a buff slot, aka wasteful, gives us back 2% on every melee hti received that isn't a miss if you are block capped. I have 12% miss on my attack table.. so 88% of attacks need to give me 92% of my mana in 15 seconds at a proc rate of 2% per hit.. In order for BoSanc to draw me even on its own I need to be getting hit every 0.28 seconds..

Your argument about SWP and Penance isn't really valid, but let's run with it anyway.. how would a priest feel if they were forced to use penance and only penance because greater heal, flash heal and renew used 50% base mana each? Sure, they could use them if they wanted, but they would run oom very quickly.

It's not that we won't have other choices, it's just that if we don't use SoW, then we cannot tank, period.

Notice how some people say they have it? Bliz does stupid stuff, but they've never made it so a class couldn't do their job... If it's going to be nerfed there will still be something to balance it. It's the PTR for a reason.

Of course they do, everyone makes mistakes, and it's extremely hard to bugfix when changes occur.. which is what the PTR is for.. but I'd rather think of the worst case scenario than go on blind faith.

Bliz does stupid stuff, but they've never made it so a class couldn't do their job...

I take it you just shut your eyes when it came to ret paladins in TBC?

Once bitten, twice shy.

[Copain]

Again, it's not out yet. Don't talk about Facts on things that aren't out.


EDIT: Got to go now. But Again, stop assuming things. Remember Warhammer? It was gona be a WoW killer because of how it was going to be and then when it actually came out it sucked.

[Lightstrike]

Again, it's not out yet. Don't talk about Facts on things that aren't out.

I talk about the information I have seen. When blizzard hotfix it, or make a blue post saying it's a bug and not to worry, I'll stop talking about it as if it's fact.

Edit: I never played warhammer, or age of conan for that matter.

[Bluerelic]

You are not forced to use SoW to be able to tank
You are not forced to glyph Divine Plea to tank
However, you may perform better as a tank with these!

This is the same for every class and spec. There are Glyphs, talents, spells that will affect how you play, if you use them then you will be better, if you don't use them you will be worse. It's rare you hear a Disc Priest saying "I shouldn't be forced to use Penance to Heal", Shadow Priests saying "I shouldn't be forced to use Shadow Word: Pain to do dps." You seem to be getting way to caught up in the "Bring the player not the class" idea and taking it one step further. Sure I can spec a pally full holy, put on tank gear and tank, however I won't be as effective as a Prot Pally.

This is absurd, you aren't even comparing apples to apples, this is like telling a DK to only use his frost and unholy runes, you can't use your blood runes or it will remove your entire RP pool. Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is our tanking seal, period. Assuming ANY 5 man composition that has a pally tank, a healer, and 3 dps, a pally should have no concern if he brought the right people so he can tank. A pally should be able to tank with 0 buffs, maybe it'll be easier with buffs, but you should be able to do it with none, just like every other class in the game of every spec can do their job with no buffs. Name one class that runs oom in like 35 seconds, and requires raid buffs to do anything other than stand in dalaran, the closest comparison is probably a full spec arcane mage who spams arcane blast, which isn't even remotely close to as bad as the pally is right now if this goes live with out SA.

Now, that being said, I do have SA currently on the PTR, but i also copied my character long enough ago where i still have my achievements, maybe this has an effect on the situation? Either way, i seen multiple pallies who have gotten it removed from their spell book already, as already stated, this is probably a bug where the people who have it are the bugged ones. I'm positive blizz won't leave us out in the cold on this one, there will be some compensation if they do 30 mins of testing they'll know this is bad bad bad. What concerns me more atm is that currently Divine Plea is bugged and nerfs 50% healing on a lot of the more reactive healing spells other people use on us. I'm copy/pasting from a post i have on the official forums...

These are the things that will be affected by by Divine Plea, look how many of these will be on the tank: Seal of Light, Judgement of Light, Leader of the Pack procs, Blood Aura, Prayer of Mending, Lifebloom when it blooms, Earth Shield, Health Potions, Health Stones, Bandages, Lay on Hands. These are the ones i have personally tested and found to be affected by Divine Plea.

Things i haven't gotten to check are like Glyphed Power Word: Shield, since this is a bloom type effect on a buff that you receive, I did test Beacon of Light on the PTR, it works fine. But, i dont know every heal every healer uses, havent gotten to test things like the new rejuv glyph or nourish, but any of these could fall under the "blooming" effect like lifebloom does.

I have personally tested this, and I'm looking for some constructive individuals to go out and test this themselves, and if this is indeed the case world wide, we need to make it known and get blizz to fix it.

[Veliane]

...who cares?

Paladins who dps with one hand and /razor with the other so we don't oom.

[Lightstrike]

This is absurd, you aren't even comparing apples to apples, this is like telling a DK to only use his frost and unholy runes, you can't use your blood runes or it will remove your entire RP pool. Seal of Vengeance/Corruption is our tanking seal, period. Assuming ANY 5 man composition that has a pally tank, a healer, and 3 dps, a pally should have no concern if he brought the right people so he can tank. A pally should be able to tank with 0 buffs, maybe it'll be easier with buffs, but you should be able to do it with none, just like every other class in the game of every spec can do their job with no buffs. Name one class that runs oom in like 35 seconds, and requires raid buffs to do anything other than stand in dalaran, the closest comparison is probably a full spec arcane mage who spams arcane blast, which isn't even remotely close to as bad as the pally is right now if this goes live with out SA.

Now, that being said, I do have SA currently on the PTR, but i also copied my character long enough ago where i still have my achievements, maybe this has an effect on the situation? Either way, i seen multiple pallies who have gotten it removed from their spell book already, as already stated, this is probably a bug where the people who have it are the bugged ones. I'm positive blizz won't leave us out in the cold on this one, there will be some compensation if they do 30 mins of testing they'll know this is bad bad bad. What concerns me more atm is that currently Divine Plea is bugged and nerfs 50% healing on a lot of the more reactive healing spells other people use on us. I'm copy/pasting from a post i have on the official forums...

These are the things that will be affected by by Divine Plea, look how many of these will be on the tank: Seal of Light, Judgement of Light, Leader of the Pack procs, Blood Aura, Prayer of Mending, Lifebloom when it blooms, Earth Shield, Health Potions, Health Stones, Bandages, Lay on Hands. These are the ones i have personally tested and found to be affected by Divine Plea.

Things i haven't gotten to check are like Glyphed Power Word: Shield, since this is a bloom type effect on a buff that you receive, I did test Beacon of Light on the PTR, it works fine. But, i dont know every heal every healer uses, havent gotten to test things like the new rejuv glyph or nourish, but any of these could fall under the "blooming" effect like lifebloom does.

I have personally tested this, and I'm looking for some constructive individuals to go out and test this themselves, and if this is indeed the case world wide, we need to make it known and get blizz to fix it.

This.

[amk]

Glyphs and Seals are choices, what's the point in giving us glyph slots if we're going to need to use a certain glyph to be able to perform a role, isn't that what talents are for?

Logic Barrage Crits WoW community for over 9000.
You have died.
All your posts lose 10% durability.

Kinda makes you wonder why Blizz devs can't see the obvious too...

[DaGhostDS]

damnit...
you are joking right... ah no you arent... :-X
the nerf wasnt enought lets kill my mana..
/gone on his shaman

[Lightstrike]

You're doing it wrong.

I don't like linking stuff again and again, but for the benefit of the quoted;
http://lightforged.blogspot.com/2009...ptr-video.html

The Dummies don't fight back, so don't proc BoS. You also won't be getting replenishment, or any other sources of mana as you would in a raid.

So, i say it again, you're doing it wrong.

EDIT: To make myself clear, Consecration is the weak point. For PvP, you won't be spamming this, and probably not using it at all. For PvE, you WILL be using it, but you have BoS and various raid buffs.

Even with replenishment and BoS procs, it isn't enough to sustain a proper rotation for longer than 3 minutes.

EDIT:
I think the problem many of us have, including myself, with this change as it is now, is this part:

For PvE, you WILL be using it, but you have BoS and various raid buffs.

This would leave us in a situation where we ar ethe only tank in the game that relies on other classes to perform our basic role.
I should not need to have a mage or paladin in my group. They are called buffs for a reason. They are supposed to buff me, improve me, make me shiny.. they're not supposed to be integral to my ability to tank.

[greenttich]

These are the things that will be affected by by Divine Plea, look how many of these will be on the tank: Seal of Light, Judgement of Light, Leader of the Pack procs, Blood Aura, Prayer of Mending, Lifebloom when it blooms, Earth Shield, Health Potions, Health Stones, Bandages, Lay on Hands. These are the ones i have personally tested and found to be affected by Divine Plea.

I very much assume that most of these will be fixed so don't panic too much. It would be silly to make heals not actually cast by the paladin to be effected by Divine Plea. I expect you have written this in some feedback on the PTR though and not just complained on a forum that isn't read by Blizzard.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention but I went and hit a dummy on my prot paladin a week or so ago on the PTR and lasted around 5 minutes before I went out of mana. That's with judgement of wisdom and divine plea up. Using Seal of Vengeance and a standard rotation. I'll have to check it again later.

[Bluerelic]

You're doing it wrong.

I don't like linking stuff again and again, but for the benefit of the quoted;
http://lightforged.blogspot.com/2009...ptr-video.html

The Dummies don't fight back, so don't proc BoS. You also won't be getting replenishment, or any other sources of mana as you would in a raid.

So, i say it again, you're doing it wrong.

EDIT: To make myself clear, Consecration is the weak point. For PvP, you won't be spamming this, and probably not using it at all. For PvE, you WILL be using it, but you have BoS and various raid buffs.

First of all, i have a lot of respect for you with in the pally community here, this is not a flame, but I'm gonna disagree here. You're right consecration is the weak point, its a huge mana cost, and the majority of the video you don't use it, there is very little uptime on it considering the fast pace of the video and its estimate length. In PvP its fine to not use consecration, it'll avoid using lots of mana when its such a waste unless you're PvPing a tree, but in PvE, consecration is not an option, you should be using it, and with out SA to fill your mana up, you would need a dual wielding mob with a 1 sec swing timer and a bloodlust to compensate for the mana loss from casting it using BoS alone. With out SA, prot pallies become extremely less desirable outside of a 25 man raid, and nigh about worthless for tanking 5 and 10 mans with out perfect group comp.