With the new ToW glyph..

[Lightenme]

In my opinion, replacing the LB glyph with the new ToW glyph will be logical. +84 spl power to LvB, FS, LB vs 4% to LB..

What do you guys think?

[tacklebox]

I've done some small testing. 10min sessions of basic rotation, no heroism, elemental mastery, etc. Replacing the lave blast glyph with ToW showed a decent increase in overall dps. 70% of our DPS comes from LB, anything that gives or takes away from that will show greatly on the meters.

[Malrman]

i reckon lb glyph will still be better though this glyph definitely worth some testing. just think about it this at all lvl will give you +84 spellpower but that 4% for lb will get higher and higher for lb as you get more sp.

[tacklebox]

Someone did the math last week. Though i'm not good at math to have paid attention to it. Have to remember that that 84 spell damage is more than that do to shamanism and clearcasting procs.

[Marakara]

LB>ToW>Lava

in terms of glyphs. 84 spell damage at upper t5 levels gives about ~1.3 dps per spell power, which is ~110 dps. edit: 1.3 dps w/ current glyphs, so it would probably be -slightly- less w/o glyph of lava.

Lava:
With: 11154 crit.
Without: 10331 crit.
Difference: 823 (2799 spellpower)
Per rotation that is 1646 extra damage from the glyph (2 LvB casts).
Divide by rotation time, 18.58, and we get 88.6 dps.

Lightning Bolt
Average damage with: 6984
Average damage without: 6715
Difference: 269
Per rotation that is 2152 extra damage (8 Lb casts)
Divide by rotation time, 18.58, and we get 115.8

-binkenstein, EJ

[vitalic]

Yes LB glyph is still superior, thats not in question.

Regarding the difference between ToW and LvB glyphs;

It comes down to whether you want 84 spellpower across the board or 1/10th of your spellpower added to LvB.

There are some little arcane issues at hand (such as set bonuses), but really however you look at it, the difference between the two glyphs is miniscule. Literally I was coming up with less than 0.5% differences in dps between the glyphs, thats how piddling it is. (on the same scale as the ~110dps increase vs. ~80dps increase suggested above)

Its been suggested that the rationale for this glyph was so that elementals would have a personal stake in speccing into ToW, so that in the case where there are multiple elementals or a trumping demonology warlock, the shaman still wants to spec into ToW.

As it is, ToW looks a tiny bit better than Lava. You could argue that Lava will be more valuable in high mobility fights where you trade LB casts for movement (move, LvB, move, LvB, etc.).



On another note, its been pointed out that Lava glyph scales, while ToW does not. This is true for spellpower... however, its not true for haste. Remember that LvB is fairly unaffected by haste due to the cooldown. 84 spellpower does scale with user haste. In other words, ToW scales with haste, Lava scales with spellpower.


All this complicated crap over 1% dps differences, whee.

[TheTieThatBinds]

IMO it would be better to use ToW glyph until we break 2800-3200 SP because, as everyone knows, LB is most of our DPS. We would be adding that extra spellpower to all our spells, and not just 10% to LvB.

As posted by Vitalic though, LvB scales with SP and ToW with haste, and since we hit our ceiling at ~700, LvB would be better later on, when we get around Icecrown, but ToW would be better now IMO, because of the lower SP we have at this point.

So when it hits, ill be switching to ToW over LvB.

[Marakara]

IMO it would be better to use ToW glyph until we break 2800-3200 SP because, as everyone knows, LB is most of our DPS. We would be adding that extra spellpower to all our spells, and not just 10% to LvB.

As posted by Vitalic though, LvB scales with SP and ToW with haste, and since we hit our ceiling at ~700, LvB would be better later on, when we get around Icecrown, but ToW would be better now IMO, because of the lower SP we have at this point.

So when it hits, ill be switching to ToW over LvB.

Where are you getting the 700 haste number?

[baqqa]

As far as I know you LB will hit 1sec casttime (on activated Bloodlust) once you hit 540 haste-rating. So... why 700?

ToW glyph seems to be even with LvB glyph... seems to me the only choice is: higher crits on LvB or dividing that same Dmg among our three Nukes.

[Marakara]

You need 1386 haste to have a one second LB during BL.

[TheTieThatBinds]

Where are you getting the 700 haste number?

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t20914-s.../#Haste_Rating

650-700 is the more realistic number to hit because you start throwing all your other stats out of whack when you start stacking haste. ATM for me, i have 517 haste, and thats without BIS Shield, neck, trinket, and cloak.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...7jin&n=Lohmarn

"Ideally, you should aim for haste values that occur 1 to 3% prior to the Fixed rotations drops, to maximize rotation efficiency. It is also important to note that while the graph shows a relatively linear increase as you stack haste, this is a fixed dps increase per %, so the overall percentage dps gain from each extra % will be slightly lower than the one before."

*edit*

After looking at the chart, it looks like 28% haste is what would be best as long as it doesn't effect you SP or crit. 28% = 918 Haste. Right now, its not a feasible to stack haste up to that as u will most likely lose hit or spellpower, which u will want to keep. This is flat haste, not including buffs, so adding the 30% from BL and if u are the best class for a shaman, troll, 10-30% increase from Berserking, you gain quite a bit of cast time. with just BL, 30%(32.79 x 30 = 983.7 Haste) u would need over 500 haste, rougly around 700 would make sure you were over.

[baqqa]

During BL my LBs come out one 1.2 Speed... I'm on 523 hasterating... explain to me how I would need another ~800 hasterating before my LBs hit 1.0 please. I really don't understand it.

Edit: Reviewing Binks post I agree with you, ~700 seems to be it. But certainly not 13xx.

[Thunderspike]

to the first half of this post: good to hear that the glyph will be an improvement
to the second half: the point of having about 550 haste is to put 5 lbs between each lvb cast, after that you require obscene amounts of haste to get to 6 lbs. thus once you hit 550 ish haste has greatly diminishing returns because you cant really get anything better, plus at 550 ish and with BL you can fit 6 lbs which makes it perfect. please do your own calculations and use your brain when trying to discuss these things, elitist jerks is often wrong. side note when doing your own calculations dont forget server lag between casts

[Marakara]

During BL my LBs come out one 1.2 Speed... I'm on 523 hasterating... explain to me how I would need another ~800 hasterating before my LBs hit 1.0 please. I really don't understand it.

Edit: Reviewing Binks post I agree with you, ~700 seems to be it. But certainly not 13xx.

2/1.03/1.05/1.3= 42.25% haste. .4225*3278=1385. You're getting much more haste from buffs than you are from gear, so if you want to push LB to a shorter time more than buffs, you need a lot of haste to make up for it.

[baqqa]

Thank you Thunderspike for clarification. This really helped.

Sorry to say this Mara but... I don't get it. Without any sarcasm, I seem to be simply too stupid.

I am on 15,95% Haste (523 rating) plus 5% from my Totem. Now with your 1385 it goes up to 42,24% plus 5% again. So 47,24% (as they add up). Now when BL kicks in I get another 30 percentage points on top of it. Wouldn't that push me up on 77,24% haste? Am I that wrong about the mechanics?

Only if BL adds up relativly (not absolute as I thought for a long time now) this would be another 12,76% (30% of your 47,24%) , thus 50% and a LB Casttime of 1.0 (down from 2.0). But if this was true, BL would only increase your Hasterating by 30%, infact BL increases your Casttime by 30%. These are two different things.

But again... if this was true I should hit the 50% with BL once I'm on 20% Haste... which I am, but I only hit ~1.2 speed... so again I cannot be right either.

Anyway: Thunderspike: your statement seems to be the only way to deal with this, thank you again.

Edit: Mara... sorry, I just got it, I was stupid. Of course from that Hasterating I get a new Casttime which is improved yet again by BL, so your numbers are correct. Thank you very much too

[Instant]

He said you need 1385 haste w/o BL to have 42.25% haste...


Also poster above saying we need ~700 haste obviously forgot bout totem and/or ret/moonkin aura.

Also BL is only (at least i think so, but not 100% sure) spell that actualyl LOWERS your GCD below 1 sec. So you never loose anything form having a lot of haste (except for dimnishing return on haste of course...).

[Marakara]

Also BL is only (at least i think so, but not 100% sure) spell that actualyl LOWERS your GCD below 1 sec. So you never loose anything form having a lot of haste (except for dimnishing return on haste of course...).

I can't test that because the realms are down, but I'm positive that's not true. Nothing, short of being off the gcd, reduces the gcd below 1 second.

Second, the only kind of diminishing returns haste has are the same that crit and spell power (and hit) have. That's by looking at your stats as a relative margin instead of simply a margin. Except at a couple numbers, haste gives pretty constant dps across the board.

[Instant]

I can't test that because the realms are down, but I'm positive that's not true. Nothing, short of being off the gcd, reduces the gcd below 1 second.

It is true, belive me. That's why shamans can get their LHW at 0.75sec or lower cast time. Point is, if BL wouldnt do that, than in some class/specs cases it wouldnt be a dps boost at all. Like aff locks and their GCDs, and Eradication proc. Also its not EASY thing to do. Im resto i can do it with LHW cause of Tidal Waves, but i cant imagine lots of classes achieving it on basic nukes - moonkin is exception i belive (Ele shammy - has LB on 2 sec cast, so its very hard for him to go below 1 sec), but thats only when crit appears etc.

[Marakara]

Aff locks use shadow bolt as filler between GCDs. That's affected by BL.

Try this: Bloodlust and try to fit more than 10 LWH in 10 seconds. You won't be able to use riptide/chain heal to increase your haste, but you should be able to get lwh below 1 second with BL. With a LWH of .9 you should be able to fit 11 lwh in 10 seconds.

[Instant]

Not sure exactly why i shoudl do it? :P

For the sake of testing? :P

Like i said, im able to reduce my casting time with Tidal Waves, it puts my LHW on 0.67 cast time.

Also aff locks use Sbolt as filler when they DoTs tick not between their GCD. What i meant is that Aff lock during bloodlust wouldn't have much of it when reapplying DoTs, but since BL lowers GCD, if they proc Eradication, or drink haste pot, it's not wasted when they have to recast them.

Thats of course if BL is used at any other moment than last 35% boss HP, cause then its Drain Sould ftw.

Point is, you can spam like crazy with BL, and GCD is lowered while BL is active.