3.1 Prot Paladin Builds, Please constructive feedback.

[Evereghalo]

First,

Maximum Threat

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...1&version=9684

- Max threat Build, does sacrifice some mitigation.

An Alternative:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...1&version=9684


This series of builds would be maximum threat.

It does trade off 2 pts in Judgements of the Just, for the added threat. The argument would then be that an offtank can keep the thuderclap, etc etc up. This is lazy, and yes mean, but if you are the main tank and have say over what the other tanks do. Then this can work. ALSO note I called it max threat.


In my opinion the only suspect changes for prot paladins are the following 2 questions.

1) What effect would having Divinity have for paladin tanking? (knowing that it obviously will have an effect because it does do something) My thoughts are that it will obviously be great for every heal sub 25man level, and it would not hurt at all for instance where it is progression boss killing. Secondly, I would think it would maximize HoT effects between big heals. Also on the less extreme bosses would it not make short heals safer? or make Regrowth spamming more effective because it is meant to crit with a strong hot? This leaves with the only issue of 25man? Can having a paladin tank have this make a difference? The most noticeable would then be does it make it where you can sub out 1 healer for an extra dps? If so the extra dps means killing the boss faster and less stress on the healers? I would wager in a 10man environment it could make transitioning from 3 to 2 healers much faster. Honestly numbers are the best way to go with this. and only way to have a formal conclusion. HOWEVER, without crunching the numbers my Hypothesis is that it will contribute more to over healing than effective healing, however it wont be useless but still a nice tool to have and can compensate for an under geared healer on the tank. And that it will maximize the effect of hots on the tank. Which is a good thing, it will allow for a little more time for a druid to hot another 1 or 2 dps before it reapplies rolling hots.

In effect marginal assistance. It certainlly does not suck, and makes for good filler if your going with a pure PvE spec. I can not think of any better pts with the exception of using Righteousness and going 3pts in reckoning.


Second: What will be the best seal for tanking?

1) We know that vengeance gives expertise which is very nice.

but

2) Can Judgment of Righteousness do more TPS? And if so, how much is enough to lose 10 full pts of expertise?

I would speculate, 500 to 1000 is worth considering, and anything over 1000 is a hell yes.

Lastly in my opinion the basic build for every prot paladin is:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9684

With the 1pts in Divinity, Divine Sacrifice, Imp HoJ, and Reckoning representing peoples PERSONAL CHOICE.


- THoughts?

[Draco cracona]

First - remember you need to keep 2 points spare for SA.

I'd probably never use your first spec, it's OK but pure threat spec is needless tbh, spec mitigation if possible because we're miles clear on threat atm.

JotJ is a nice talent to have, you can't rely on always having a spare OT, or warrs stance-dancing etc (4HM, council etc). Divinity is decent, it'll help mainly with HoTs but I'm not sure it's going to have that much effect - it's probably the best talent dump to get down the tree though.

SoR/SoV - SoV is the clear winner currently, waiting on PTR info to find out about the glyphed SoR v SoV, but as it's seal only afaik I guess that vengeance will still be king.

Reckoning MIGHT be useful in 3.1 for proccing the enchant, but we'll see how that ends up tbh.

Imp. devo is a talent that depends on your raid makeup; I'll be dropping it asap come 3.1 as it is effectively just a few hundred ac for me. Also, IMO PoJ beats 2% crit, purely as there are a lot of movement based bosses, and it's a nice talent to have. Also, 2/2 imp. judgement is nice for later on in fights when you have a large threat lead and can switch to prioritizing judgement for the mitigation (yeah, small gain, but handy).

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9684 if SA is in the first 7 tiers of prot, with the SA points coming out of divinity/imp. HoJ; else the two for it are coming out of crusade. I think that the DP glyph will be useless due to stacking iissues, else I'll work that in there.

[Evereghalo]

First - remember you need to keep 2 points spare for SA.

I'd probably never use your first spec, it's OK but pure threat spec is needless tbh, spec mitigation if possible because we're miles clear on threat atm.

JotJ is a nice talent to have, you can't rely on always having a spare OT, or warrs stance-dancing etc (4HM, council etc). Divinity is decent, it'll help mainly with HoTs but I'm not sure it's going to have that much effect - it's probably the best talent dump to get down the tree though.

SoR/SoV - SoV is the clear winner currently, waiting on PTR info to find out about the glyphed SoR v SoV, but as it's seal only afaik I guess that vengeance will still be king.

Reckoning MIGHT be useful in 3.1 for proccing the enchant, but we'll see how that ends up tbh.

Imp. devo is a talent that depends on your raid makeup; I'll be dropping it asap come 3.1 as it is effectively just a few hundred ac for me. Also, IMO PoJ beats 2% crit, purely as there are a lot of movement based bosses, and it's a nice talent to have. Also, 2/2 imp. judgement is nice for later on in fights when you have a large threat lead and can switch to prioritizing judgement for the mitigation (yeah, small gain, but handy).

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9684 if SA is in the first 7 tiers of prot, with the SA points coming out of divinity/imp. HoJ; else the two for it are coming out of crusade. I think that the DP glyph will be useless due to stacking iissues, else I'll work that in there.

Um, SA is being folded in? but now with Guarded by the light, keeping divine plea up constantly, I would doubt they dont fold it into something? Because right now with glyph of divine plea, thats a permienant 3% mitigation. So I would think that is the deep prot change losing SA, not a new talent.

Also in my builds not having JotJ is my only lack of mitigation talent.

[Lumidar]

who said SA was being folded in? last blue post said it will be a 2 point talent deep in prot. (no comments of it being melded with a current talent or a brand new 2pt talent.)

I'm not even gonna speculate specs until things are more clear in the next PTR Build

[Deleted]

Um, SA is being folded in?

A blue post just stated that SA is going to be a talent in prot tree, not folded in to other talents.

As for these max threat builds...I am wondering why you want such. Are you having threat issues or is it just e-peen stroking? Prot paladins are already doing insane amounts of threat, and I have never been able to rip agro off of a prot paladin tank with my warlock, but I have ripped agro off of druids, warriors and DKs. I just don't think there is need for max threat builds.

[Lumidar]

tank a 25man malygos (trying for 6minute achivement) when your raid is stacking sparks and bloodlusting and try to keep threat then. Not every encounter is based on the kind of threat we see in Naxx.

I'd rather be way in front of DPS in some encounters then not enough in others.

if I must speculate I'll go for something like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...6&version=9684

[Crazy]

With the new changes 2 prot there are quite a few nice builds floating around. Not sure if i would go this 1 personally but with the new changes to Aura mastery its sort of a mini last stand/sheildwall with devo aura. What ya think?

Survivability spec
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...1&version=9684

[Evereghalo]

tank a 25man malygos (trying for 6minute achivement) when your raid is stacking sparks and bloodlusting and try to keep threat then. Not every encounter is based on the kind of threat we see in Naxx.

I'd rather be way in front of DPS in some encounters then not enough in others.

if I must speculate I'll go for something like this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...6&version=9684

I am glad someone else actually seeing that threat will always be an issue, or some people do not run with dps that knows how to kick butt. And max threat is important because it translates into a bit more damage.

- As for your build. I like it. but
1) we have 2+ ret paladins in the guild, and the GM is a ret pally so heart of the crusader will always be up.

2) why Sanctity of Battle over Crusade?

Just asking? it it because Ulduar is not undead/demon?

Are most the mobs classified as Titans, or Humanoids? etc?

[Lumidar]

2) why Sanctity of Battle over Crusade?

Just asking? it it because Ulduar is not undead/demon?

Are most the mobs classified as Titans, or Humanoids? etc?

i took heart of the Crusader because if for any reason ther are no ret pallies wherever i go It will always be on my targets maxxing out my personal threat and raising party/raid DPS on that target.

i took Sanctity of Battle since 3% more crit is awesome and Exorcism will be part of our regular rotation now so the 15% more damage is a bonus.

in Ulduar most mobs will either be Mechanical or Giant, and won't fall in the parameters of Crusade bonus.

[Deleted]

I just tried what difference does Seals of the Pure do on PTR. Well, it only raised my TPS by 200, for 5 talent points. Sure, raid-buffed it'd be a little bit more, but.. ehm, totally not worth it.

[Evereghalo]

I just tried what difference does Seals of the Pure do on PTR. Well, it only raised my TPS by 200, for 5 talent points. Sure, raid-buffed it'd be a little bit more, but.. ehm, totally not worth it.

I did not think it would be.

I am gonna tell my friend, because I knew that the extra damage on 1 seal, and 1 judgement would not be worth while ever 9 seconds. Over either 3% to every ability, and or 5 or 8 percent crit.

And to make it worth while in my opinion you would have to do Judgment glyph, and Seal of Righteousness Glyph.

Which seems like a waste of other things.

And Reckoning will always be inversely useful.

[Ricodyn]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=0000000000000000000000000055005135031023133331232150230000200000000000000000&glyp h=072414060405&version=9684

This would be my spec for 3.1. I got 2 points left for SA when it comes and another 2 points for Imp HoJ or Conviction or something else, I havent decided yet.

[Quest]

I dont think you should look at SotP if youre so ready to let initial and short-sighted theorycrafting sway you so easily.


For people that want to take more into consideration that what a single isolated talent will bring, then consider how it can synergize wit 1. How you play. 2. Other abilities that add to or multiply the effect of and 3. Your gear and mainly your glyphs.

Basicaly all it comes down to is this; Are you in content where you regularly need more TPS? No? Then put your 5 points out of SotP. Yes? Then stop bsing and remember everything eventually adds up to one of two outcomes; you either holding aggro, or not.

[Giebel]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?paladin=0000000000000000000000000055005135031023133331232150230000200000000000000000&glyp h=072414060405&version=9684

This would be my spec for 3.1. I got 2 points left for SA when it comes and another 2 points for Imp HoJ or Conviction or something else, I havent decided yet.

Well, good luck with that build if you're planning to MT in Ulduar.

Conviction is a MUST and will be in Ulduar as well. Forget about the Divinity unless you don't have fail healers. They put SA in prot tree just to don't let retri and holy paladins have it. So they'll prolly attach it to another talent and we won't need to use extra pts for it.

Here is what I'm planning as a MT.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...5&version=9684

[Quest]

Well, good luck with that build if you're planning to MT in Ulduar.

Conviction is a MUST and will be in Ulduar as well. Forget about the Divinity unless you don't have fail healers. They put SA in prot tree just to don't let retri and holy paladins have it. So they'll prolly attach it to another talent and we won't need to use extra pts for it.

Here is what I'm planning as a MT.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...5&version=9684

So basically let the healers carry you.

Youre the worst kind of player.

[Evereghalo]

Well, good luck with that build if you're planning to MT in Ulduar.

Conviction is a MUST and will be in Ulduar as well. Forget about the Divinity unless you don't have fail healers. They put SA in prot tree just to don't let retri and holy paladins have it. So they'll prolly attach it to another talent and we won't need to use extra pts for it.

Here is what I'm planning as a MT.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...5&version=9684

I like it very similar to mine.

2 things, and its just me.

Can you present arguments (not that I dont agree) why the following?

1) Sanctity of Battle over Crusade?

2) Why 1 pt in divine sacrafice, and not 4 in Divinity? Why is it that profitable?

So basically let the healers carry you.

Youre the worst kind of player.

Wow, your such a troll, you see what someone posts think you know better, and flame someone. What a loser, and you truely are, because you fail to even present any kind of argument.

And no one has even definitively (through math) that it is needed. and 1 pt less is not going to kill anyone.

And you failed to present an alternative build, so I would say your post needs to deleted because your feedback was not constructive.

[Iselian]

2 things, and its just me.

Can you present arguments (not that I dont agree) why the following?

1) Sanctity of Battle over Crusade?

2) Why 1 pt in divine sacrafice, and not 4 in Divinity? Why is it that profitable?

For just 1 point, Divine Sacrifice may end up being very, very situationally useful. Think about on occasional non-tank-intensive fights.. ie Loatheb. I'm still out on whether I'll be going 3/5 Divinity (that extra 1% just doesn't seem as useful compared to DSac's potential) or whether I should hit up 3/5 reckoning. We'll see how my healers feel when I first step in there.

Also, Crusade > Sanctity of Battle. It's just a higher increase in tps. My current thought is this, but I'll need to fool with it a bit for the new Spiritual Attunement.

[Giebel]

I like it very similar to mine.

2 things, and its just me.

Can you present arguments (not that I dont agree) why the following?

1) Sanctity of Battle over Crusade?

As a MT; Let's say, your ShoR hits like 3K. When you have the Crusade, will be,

Comparing in 10 hits: (3000xO.06)x10=1800

OR you'll just make minimum 1 extra crit (by Sanctity) and make almost 2 times more tps than Crusade's total extra damage.

Also on trash, u'll never change ur build again when u see 4 crit blows in ur screen by 1 shot of HotR

Also +15% to Exorcism is a plus.

Crusade is ok in fights like when u're add tanking in S3D, which boosts ur consecration a lil bit but I prefer to use a SP wep instead of Crusade anyway.

Btw, be careful if u're OTing with that build, a couple of ShoR crits comes like a ninja taunt.

2) Why 1 pt in divine sacrafice, and not 4 in Divinity? Why is it that profitable?

This >

(that extra 1% just doesn't seem as useful compared to DSac's potential)

But we will all see what soon. Nothing is certain yet.

Wrote with 1 eye..I think it's fine -.O

[Giebel]

Oh! I was almost forgetting.

To the Super Safe Tanky: You said,

So basically let the healers carry you.

Youre the worst kind of player.

Well, maybe so but with ur build, there even wouldn't be any healer alive to carry me ..

And btw, yeah go for the Imp. HoJ .. maybe you can stun Thorim and save some damage. ^^

[seigert]

As a MT; Let's say, your ShoR hits like 3K. When you have the Crusade, will be,

Comparing in 10 hits: (3000xO.06)x10=1800

OR you'll just make minimum 1 extra crit (by Sanctity) and make almost 2 times more tps than Crusade's total extra damage.

You are very easy on math in those calculations. With 3 points in Sanctity chance to crit in 10 hits of SoR would be 3% * 10 hits = 30%. Thus, added damage due to SoR crits would be 3000 * 30% = 900.

And that's a half of Crusade extra damage. Of course, this is only applicable to those +3% additional damage output from Crusade to Humanoids, Undeads and such. Without this, Crusade & Sanctity are roughly the same, but Crusade will give you more steady and controllable threat output with less burst.