51/13/7 Questions

[Nassiral]

hi guys i have a couple of questions about this spec, is it really better than 51/0/20 for overall raid dps right now?
and the 2nd question is about 51/13/7 is why people gets 5 points in black ice instead of 5 points in toughness wich will boss attack power with bladed armor?

[Mothhive]

It's worse than both the disease using and the diseaseless 51/0/20. In 3.1 the difference will be even bigger, except diseaseless will be dead (so should annihilation spec to be honest due to Death Strike changes).

As for your question about Toughness, it's terrible for DPS. Take my gear, it's some of the best you can get at the moment and my armor is 13,868. Toughness would only give 2080.2 extra armor, which only gives 57.8 extra AP. For 5 talent points! Even in full tank gear and frost presence you'd only get around 125 extra AP.

[Mothhive]

/pat

Someone's just looking at the colours of items to judge them.

[Talamare]

bloodied waters is the best str cape :-X

[Mothhive]

Thank you sir! Glad someone has more sense than "prpls is teh bestst noob". :P

The only cape I consider an upgrade, drops in Ulduar. Haven't been there on live yet, so I obviosuly don't have it. I suppose you do though crs since you're so awesome.

[Mothhive]

42 Agi - Meh
26 Sta - Useless for DPS
12 Armor - Crap for DPS
126 AP - Doesn't scale. I get much more AP from my cape due to talents and BoK
15 Crit - Meh
31 Haste - Crap

It's not a bad cloak, but it's worse than mine for a Blood DK. I always pass on it for the Rogues and Hunters who it's an actual upgrade for.

[DaGhostDS]

I have to decline, Sir. Your cape does have +60 str, which sure is fine. But still I do like Drape of the Deadly Foe better.

http://de.wowhead.com/?compare=40403;37647

i would pass it to a hunter/rogue/shaman before giving it to a dk/war/ret
with bok Bloodied water give more Ap then Deadly foe, only get a bit of haste and crit from it
not the best upgrade you can wish... thats our wish! http://ptr.wowhead.com/?item=45138

[Haskel]

42 Agi - Meh
26 Sta - Useless for DPS
12 Armor - Crap for DPS
126 AP - Doesn't scale. I get much more AP from my cape due to talents and BoK
15 Crit - Meh
31 Haste - Crap

It's not a bad cloak, but it's worse than mine for a Blood DK. I always pass on it for the Rogues and Hunters who it's an actual upgrade for.

Your talent build has 6% str, 3% str, and 2% str, factor in the 10% from BoK and the epic cloak would have the following DPS stats:

+42 Agi
+15 Crit
+31 Haste
-18 AP

I don't know if you're familiar with Equivalency points (AEP, EP, Pawn, whatever), but you'd have to have an EP value of under ~0.22 for Crit, Agi, AND Haste for yours to be better (Assuming a scale based on AP). Sure, the blue is a very good cloak, far better than a number of epics. But I have a hard time believing that that 18 AP is better than 1.07% crit and 0.95% haste.

A similar comparison would be:

Fictional Tank Cloak
50 Str
50 Stam
26 Defense
24 Dodge

vs

Fictional DPS Cloak
43 Str
30 Stam
49 Crit
31 Haste

You'd get about the same gains taking the tank cloak over the DPS one. (IE. your blue is like the tank cloak, the epic is like the DPS one).


All that said, this is pointless to the OP's question about toughness as a DPS talent, as the 12 difference in armor isn't likely to have a huge impact on the analysis. ~60 AP (12 per point) is a terrible return on points spent, where Black Ice is a quite large increase in IT and FF damage.

My maths:

AP:
60 str * 1.06 (Veteran) * 1.03 (ravenous) * 1.02 (SoD) * 1.10 (BoK) * 2 (str->AP) = 147 AP
147 - 126 = 21 AP difference
42 agi * 1.1 (BoK) = 46.2 agi * 2 = 92.4 armor + 12 armor = 104.4 Armor / 180 = 0.58 * 5 = 2.9 AP
21 AP - 2.9 = 18.1 AP difference

18.1 / 1.1 (BoK) / 1.06 (Veteran) / 1.03 (ravenous) / 1.02 (SoD) / 2 (str->AP) = 7.38 Str (hense the 7 difference in str in my fictional gear comparison)

Crit:
42 agi * 1.1 (BoK) = 46.2 agi / 62.5 (agi->crit) = 0.7392 crit
15 crit / 45.91 (rating->crit) = 1.066 crit chance
1.066% crit * 45.91 = same benefit as having 48.94 crit rating (assuming you have BoK)

Haste:
31 haste / 32.78 (rating->haste) = 0.946% haste

[rathok]

Your talent build has 6% str, 3% str, and 2% str, factor in the 10% from BoK and the epic cloak would have the following DPS stats:

+42 Agi
+15 Crit
+31 Haste
-18 AP

I don't know if you're familiar with Equivalency points (AEP, EP, Pawn, whatever), but you'd have to have an EP value of under ~0.22 for Crit, Agi, AND Haste for yours to be better (Assuming a scale based on AP). Sure, the blue is a very good cloak, far better than a number of epics. But I have a hard time believing that that 18 AP is better than 1.07% crit and 0.95% haste.

A similar comparison would be:

Fictional Tank Cloak
50 Str
50 Stam
26 Defense
24 Dodge

vs

Fictional DPS Cloak
43 Str
30 Stam
49 Crit
31 Haste

You'd get about the same gains taking the tank cloak over the DPS one. (IE. your blue is like the tank cloak, the epic is like the DPS one).


All that said, this is pointless to the OP's question about toughness as a DPS talent, as the 12 difference in armor isn't likely to have a huge impact on the analysis. ~60 AP (12 per point) is a terrible return on points spent, where Black Ice is a quite large increase in IT and FF damage.

My maths:

AP:
60 str * 1.06 (Veteran) * 1.03 (ravenous) * 1.02 (SoD) * 1.10 (BoK) * 2 (str->AP) = 147 AP
147 - 126 = 21 AP difference
42 agi * 1.1 (BoK) = 46.2 agi * 2 = 92.4 armor + 12 armor = 104.4 Armor / 180 = 0.58 * 5 = 2.9 AP
21 AP - 2.9 = 18.1 AP difference

18.1 / 1.1 (BoK) / 1.06 (Veteran) / 1.03 (ravenous) / 1.02 (SoD) / 2 (str->AP) = 7.38 Str (hense the 7 difference in str in my fictional gear comparison)

Crit:
42 agi * 1.1 (BoK) = 46.2 agi / 62.5 (agi->crit) = 0.7392 crit
15 crit / 45.91 (rating->crit) = 1.066 crit chance
1.066% crit * 45.91 = same benefit as having 48.94 crit rating (assuming you have BoK)

Haste:
31 haste / 32.78 (rating->haste) = 0.946% haste

Don't forget the +30% str from your Rune proc...

[tvveeder]

Your talent build has 6% str, 3% str, and 2% str, factor in the 10% from BoK and the epic cloak would have the following DPS stats:

+42 Agi
+15 Crit
+31 Haste
-18 AP

I don't know if you're familiar with Equivalency points (AEP, EP, Pawn, whatever), but you'd have to have an EP value of under ~0.22 for Crit, Agi, AND Haste for yours to be better (Assuming a scale based on AP). Sure, the blue is a very good cloak, far better than a number of epics. But I have a hard time believing that that 18 AP is better than 1.07% crit and 0.95% haste.

A similar comparison would be:

Fictional Tank Cloak
50 Str
50 Stam
26 Defense
24 Dodge

vs

Fictional DPS Cloak
43 Str
30 Stam
49 Crit
31 Haste

You'd get about the same gains taking the tank cloak over the DPS one. (IE. your blue is like the tank cloak, the epic is like the DPS one).


All that said, this is pointless to the OP's question about toughness as a DPS talent, as the 12 difference in armor isn't likely to have a huge impact on the analysis. ~60 AP (12 per point) is a terrible return on points spent, where Black Ice is a quite large increase in IT and FF damage.

My maths:

AP:
60 str * 1.06 (Veteran) * 1.03 (ravenous) * 1.02 (SoD) * 1.10 (BoK) * 2 (str->AP) = 147 AP
147 - 126 = 21 AP difference
42 agi * 1.1 (BoK) = 46.2 agi * 2 = 92.4 armor + 12 armor = 104.4 Armor / 180 = 0.58 * 5 = 2.9 AP
21 AP - 2.9 = 18.1 AP difference

18.1 / 1.1 (BoK) / 1.06 (Veteran) / 1.03 (ravenous) / 1.02 (SoD) / 2 (str->AP) = 7.38 Str (hense the 7 difference in str in my fictional gear comparison)

Crit:
42 agi * 1.1 (BoK) = 46.2 agi / 62.5 (agi->crit) = 0.7392 crit
15 crit / 45.91 (rating->crit) = 1.066 crit chance
1.066% crit * 45.91 = same benefit as having 48.94 crit rating (assuming you have BoK)

Haste:
31 haste / 32.78 (rating->haste) = 0.946% haste

The math is great and for anyone who didn't have the gear to support it I would say your math is spot on and correct as to why the epic cloak would be better. The only argument I have though is that with crit cap/diminishing returns with crit the increase to crit is negligible for anyone who has 10 man Naxx or above gear. You will sit above 30% crit without even trying, so continuing to buff it would just be senseless.

As for haste... so then less than 1% haste buff. Take a 3.7 weapon speed and that cloak will take off ~.037 which wouldn't even technically take you down to 3.6 just yet without other haste buffs. Not to mention haste for a DK = not so good. Basically if you know how stats break down best to worst...

Weapon damage is the best stat period (high DPS and slow speed of course are optimal)
Expertise (up to dodge cap)
Hit Rating (up to hit cap)
Str (no cap)
AP (AP derives directly from Str, but since DK's have str buffs from talents it's much better to get Str.)
Crit
Armor Pen
Then maybe Haste

I don't know exactly how the numbers break down (how much dps per 1 point increase/decrease) but there is a chart I've seen from the EJ forums that breaks it down very nicely to show which specs benefits most from which stats, but this is the general guideline of it.

Don't forget the +30% str from your Rune proc...

Will be 15% in 3.1 but will also proc about 2 times as much to keep it up more consistently. So you have to take other stats into consideration... if you are sitting at 30% crit, capped hit and expertise then you don't need to worry about that epic cloak in any way shape or form because the crit addition would be excess when raid buffed and would be nothing other than a pretty number.