Protection

[Giebel]

Looking at new tiers, stats, red sockets, set bonuses, new libram, protection tree, memories of TBC..

This is just sad.

I'm a protection paladin since I got my first shield from SM. I love to be a tank and the only fun for me in this game is when I'm tanking in a raid.

I have almost all 'best in slot's and saw what my limits are and been in PTR .. now looking what's inc, just scaring me.

And now I will qq a bit about protection paladins coz we're getting really useless soon.

First of all, I really don't understand why Blizzard even made a protection specc for paladins. Was it a mistake? I really feel like Blizzard doesn't want paladins to be tanks at all and trying to force us to go for other specs.

The reason why I'm feeling and thinking like this is, we really don't have any specialty in raids anymore. In TBC, we used to be pack tanks that we were good at it. In the beginning of WotLK they made use kinda twin of prot warriors, good boss tanks and still good on packs. While we're fighting with the old brained ppl, trying to tell/show them that paladins are not only pack tanks anymore and bang, DKs joined the table with instant OP abilities and our popularity was on the ground again.

Now looking at the new tiers, their stats and set bonuses, our new talent tree..etc.

We now have even nothing. I really hate to compare my class with others but I have to. Warrior abilites, sets, bonuses etc screaming 'Bring me to ur raid and win.' Don't even need to talk about DKs. Bears, instant def cap, imba hp-mitig-avoidance and now they have imba aoe tanking ability (they only need to spam 1 key)..Are u a druid? Do you have some 'whatever' gear? Ok just shift and be the thing which we're efforting like hell to be.

I really don't want to be OP, I don't care if I tank boss or adds, I don't care if I have a skirt or a crap looking gear .. I want to be useful, something I'm good at, something unique, something makes ppl say 'Oh, paladin tanks are (also) imba for X boss/raid', some respect to my class and something which will make me feel that I'm doing good.

Devs really have to decide what they want us to be or god damn just .. delete the paladin prot specc and put an alternative dps tree instead.

'Don't bring the class, bring the player.' ?? Sorry but I can't use my playing skills with that limits.

I'm not a noob pug, whining. I'm a popular raider of an end-game guild and I will always have a spot in raids. My problem is, I want some uniqueness, clear raiding roles and attention to my spec more.

I don't want protection paladins be the 4th choice.

P.S. This is not a 'Join me and whine together.' topic. Not for offspec'ers. You don't have to comment. I just wanted to share my thoughts with protection paladin community and maybe make them a bit react about what's going on. Some of you will be agree, some won't but we all agree that we're taking it too hard to keep standing up.

Excuse my english.

[Daelak]

Meh I would think the opposite wince WoTLK came out. Guilds are dying for prot pallies for Naxx. I know for a fact teh we have become more survivable as tanks and we output the most threat out of any tank classes. besides hopefully these new tier bonuses will be changed because it is still on PTR so it is still subject to change.

[gatgat]

Meh I would think the opposite wince WoTLK came out. Guilds are dying for prot pallies for Naxx. I know for a fact teh we have become more survivable as tanks and we output the most threat out of any tank classes. besides hopefully these new tier bonuses will be changed because it is still on PTR so it is still subject to change.

This^^

No other tank can touch my threat. If we get into a niche as the threat tank I'd be ok with that. I am ok with where we are now. We are very good at AOE, very good avoidance on boss fights, very good effective health, and fantastic threat. The only area where we are heavily lacking is CD's...we have the worst tanking cds by a mile. Whatever ill never tank sarth on s3d...I can deal with that

[wyrdone]

Well at least Chronie and I agree on something (too bad he's a lippy effeminent blood elf but hey can't choose em all )

Our tier bonuses may be whacky but our tanking ability is not going to be jepardized. I currently have MT'd everything, and yes that has included MTing Sarth3D.

Call me a masochist, but I've been prot since the ZG days back before BC when being a prot pally was a twinkle in some dev's eye and we had to fight tooth & nail to maintain aggro.

In comparison, today is like the golden age of greece, all honey and peeled grapes.

[cappytoi]

why are you people start QQing when 1 thing sux? it is just the set bonus you are whining and for just because of this, paladins have finished because their set bonus are crap. what? simply if you don't like it do not use tier gear... there is many more items except tier sets, those are not there that because bosses need to drop some gear. reroll DK if you think protection paladin is a mistake.

[gatgat]

why are you people start QQing when 1 thing sux? it is just the set bonus you are whining and for just because of this, paladins have finished because their set bonus are crap. what? simply if you don't like it do not use tier gear... there is many more items except tier sets, those are not there that because bosses need to drop some gear. reroll DK if you think protection paladin is a mistake.

This

Ill prob wear 2pc cuz I like free dmg, but then just grab offsets...its nice to not be forced into wearing tier gear for the bonus. Ill have my choice of all the offspec. And personally I hope tank dk and prot warrior 4 pc is amazing so they stay away from my offset pieces...if they both need 4pc then i get my pick of the tank plate

[Sasquach]

Personally, I think some people just have to have something to complain about. If they can't find anything real to complain about, they will start nit-picking and blow small things way out of proportion.

So our set bonuses suck. Big deal, get non-set pieces. So other tanks complained and got better AoE abilities. Good for them, we're still better at it. Our biggest "niche" right now seems to be threat, which is a pretty awesome niche if you ask me. I have had Warriors, Druids, and ESPECIALLY DK's complain that they can't compete with me on threat. I have even had them accuse me of taunting off of them, lol... Hammer/Shield of Threat ftw...

Point is, the fact that in BC all we ever did was tank adds was annoying. I don't mind at all that the classes are closer together, it was frustrating as hell when everyone automatically assumed the Warrior was the Main Tank, even if I had way better gear.

Prot Pally in WotLK > Prot Pally in BC

[b37x]

I've tanked as a paladin since Vanilla. Paladin tanking has never been better. And we're still getting nice things like refreshable Divine Plea so we don't have to take damage to keep building threat.

Blizzard has provided everything you need to be the Main Tank. The rest is up to you. If you can't compete with the other tanks, don't expect blizzard to design instances that force your raid to bring you along and hand you gear.

Want to feel "special"? Get the best gear you can, learn the encounters, and perform better than all the other tanks in your guild. And when people complement you, it will be because you earned their praise and not because blizzard crafted your class a cozy niche that any oscillating fan with a macro could play.

[Sasquach]

I've tanked as a paladin since Vanilla. Paladin tanking has never been better. And we're still getting nice things like refreshable Divine Plea so we don't have to take damage to keep building threat.

Blizzard has provided everything you need to be the Main Tank. The rest is up to you. If you can't compete with the other tanks, don't expect blizzard to design instances that force your raid to bring you along and hand you gear.

Want to feel "special"? Get the best gear you can, learn the encounters, and perform better than all the other tanks in your guild. And when people complement you, it will be because you earned their praise and not because blizzard crafted your class a cozy niche that any oscillating fan with a macro could play.

Well said my friend, well said. I couldn't have put it any better myself.

[Chivas]

Looking at new tiers, stats, red sockets, set bonuses, new libram, protection tree, memories of TBC..

Maybe if you'd think and look before running to the forums to cry, you would've noticed that on Pally t7 gear we had mostly blue sockets but the socket bonuses sucked. On the new t8 we have a lot of red sockets true, but we also get +45 stam from socket bonuses.

Let's compare pally tier gear to warrior gear for a sec, warrior t7= only 2 blue sockets, but 24 stam in socket bonuses. Paladin t7=5 blue socket, only 6 stam in socket bonues.

Warrior t8= 4 blue sockets, 9 stam in bonuses. Pally t8=1 blue socket, but +45 stam in socket bonuses.

So, we can look and say 'hmm fewer blue sockets but we get compensation from great stam socket bonues, or you can go "OH NOES I HAZ TO DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN BLINDLY SOCKET BLUE GEMS QQ, BLIZZ HATES MEH, THIS IS A SLAP IN THE FACE. THE SKY IT...WILL SURELY FALL". /facepalm

To some of your other QQ, in TBC a lot of ppl thought paladins existed to tank trash and run heroics, but bosses were supposed to be left to warriors. In WotLK we've been given a lot more tools to level the playing field, and personally I love it. I understand that some ppl despise homogenization and while I can respect their opinion, I disagree with it. For me if all four tank classes had the same threat, hit points, mitigation, avoidance, and cooldowns, I'd personally love it, then every situation could really come down to who has better skill/gear, instead of which choice they made on the character selection screen.

[Evereghalo]

Maybe if you'd think and look before running to the forums to cry, you would've noticed that on Pally t7 gear we had mostly blue sockets but the socket bonuses sucked. On the new t8 we have a lot of red sockets true, but we also get +45 stam from socket bonuses.

Let's compare pally tier gear to warrior gear for a sec, warrior t7= only 2 blue sockets, but 24 stam in socket bonuses. Paladin t7=5 blue socket, only 6 stam in socket bonues.

Warrior t8= 4 blue sockets, 9 stam in bonuses. Pally t8=1 blue socket, but +45 stam in socket bonuses.

So, we can look and say 'hmm fewer blue sockets but we get compensation from great stam socket bonues, or you can go "OH NOES I HAZ TO DO SOMETHING OTHER THAN BLINDLY SOCKET BLUE GEMS QQ, BLIZZ HATES MEH, THIS IS A SLAP IN THE FACE. THE SKY IT...WILL SURELY FALL". /facepalm

To some of your other QQ, in TBC a lot of ppl thought paladins existed to tank trash and run heroics, but bosses were supposed to be left to warriors. In WotLK we've been given a lot more tools to level the playing field, and personally I love it. I understand that some ppl despise homogenization and while I can respect their opinion, I disagree with it. For me if all four tank classes had the same threat, hit points, mitigation, avoidance, and cooldowns, I'd personally love it, then every situation could really come down to who has better skill/gear, instead of which choice they made on the character selection screen.

Like I said earlier, I think it is now time for all Prot Paladins (or all paladins) to go Blacksmithing / Jewel Crafting.

[Offhand]

*Sigh* I guess we'll just have to settle for being the top tanks once 3.1 hits.

[Taurendil]

- Able to reach block capped "100% of the time" (Heavy AoE packs, this doesn't apply to as they'll eat through HS charges)

Even against heavy AoE packs, we will often hit the 100% block mark, thanks to redoubt.

[Jutteri]

how can u say that yo uare useless soon? Pala tanks are haawsooome!

[naypalmacus]

At first glance at the tier 8 set and tier bonuses, I did cry havoc! Admittedly I was hoping for easy gemming come 3.1 with just blues (like it is really at the mo with t7). But considering the gem bonuses, like one above poster stated, its not all that bad. I (and I may go so far as to say many others ) was just annoyed given having just looked at the warrior tanking set prior to the paladin set, and seeing 4 blue sockets on warrior gear, well, you know (cry havoc!). I still feel, even with careful gemming, warriors will win out on the amount of stamina they will gain compared to Paladins. Time will tell.

The set bonuses I (loosely used) like. Again, first glance, rubbish! 10% seal damage and some pathetic amount of BV after casting SotR. Now, reading the front page of mmo, the BV is added as the SotR is casted meaning it actually uses the extra 225 BV. Again not necessarily needed, but, with the upcoming warrior threat buffs just short of eclipsing Vahalla, the extra threat is a nice little addition. And that extra block value will most likely be used given every tankadin should be aiming for the magical 102.4% avoidance with HS.

The 2t bonus again first glance is rubbish, and with consideration is still rubbish. But for me, it isnt to bad. Consider if you use this current talent spec(near Bread and butter build):

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...1&version=9704

-note: close as possible to my current spec (only 1 in reckoning on live, and obviously no SA)

With full tier 8, I can easily take this spec :-
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...1&version=9704

With it, i still have 13%(with 2ts t8) seal damage and 3% seal judgement damage. To only loose out on 2%(gaining 1% on undead etc) seal and 12% judgement damage modifier makes the ts2 bonus for me rather useful. Considering judgement damage is pathetic to begin with, it isn't that much of a loss.

Now consider the fact we will now have 3%(second build) extra damage across the board in ulduar with 6% with most encounters in naxx, that should easily make up for the loss in, firstly, t7 2ts bonus (10% HotR damage), which with my current and 'to be' build is only a 7% loss and the seal/judgement damage loss through not specing into 'Seals of the Pure'[15% Seal and Judgement damage].

To note the second spec gains:-

+15% extra run speed
+4% mana cost on instant cast spells(bad :P)
+3% critical chance on everything
+3% damage with all abilities(6% on undead/demon etc)
+2% extra healing done to you
-1 second on Judgement CD

So, overall, for me at least the tier 8 set bonuses are rather nice to have. Sure, warriors get a flat out 20% magical reduction for 10seconds every 40, but we gain a constant 3% 'all damage' reduction with the advent of the Divine Plea Glyph. So overall, Paladins aren't loosing out on much whatsoever. Will go so far to say we are gaining more with the glyph than they do with their t8 4 piece bonus.

With a change of talent spec (if you're using what I think is the current bread&butter build), and the new amazing Divine Plea glyph, the upcoming tier 8 gear is a welcoming sight.

The White set for 10man content is also a major plus for me, and am one of those that thinks its the way it should be! 10man > 25 :P

Come 3.1!

[Draco cracona]

4pc T8=less BV than you would gain by switching out the two (or even one of them) non-BV pieces of T8 you need for the bonus for non-set Ulduar pieces. For an avoidance set; the BV wouldn't matter much, even if you did use one of the BV pieces. For a BV set, you would sacrifice too much BV to get the bonus. See the flaw in the 4-pc yet? It's aimed at a different set to 60% of the T8 pieces.

The 2pc is pretty much useless too tbh, even if it is a respectable amount of threat, we're still top on threat, and more threat is not needed. And don't get me started on the utter tripeness of our libram compared to the level of content it's at We'll win out over warriors as JCs for gemming (maybe not as non-JCs, but not examined that yet), and I'm still betting on the DP glyph not stacking tbh with regards to balancing that against the warr T8 4pc, which just seems too OP to be a bonus to me.

[b37x]

The 2pc is pretty much useless too tbh, even if it is a respectable amount of threat, we're still top on threat, and more threat is not needed.

1) We're holding threat in Naxx. As the dps deck themselves out with top end gear, tanks need better itemization than ever-increasing stam and avoidance. If you want to keep holding aggro in Ulduar and beyond, your TPS needs to keep pace.

2) It's also more damage. You want to beat boss timers? The tank that holds aggro with 1k dps gets benched and you bring the tank pushing 2k.

[Offhand]

1) We're holding threat in Naxx. As the dps deck themselves out with top end gear, tanks need better itemization than ever-increasing stam and avoidance. If you want to keep holding aggro in Ulduar and beyond, your TPS needs to keep pace.

I'm pulling 6-7k threat in full mitigation/avoidance/stamina gearing, gemming, etc. You mean to tell me that dps will be pushing 10k dps in non-gimmick fights?

The inherent strength increases on our gear will be more then enough to keep pace.

[Chivas]

I still feel, even with careful gemming, warriors will win out on the amount of stamina they will gain compared to Paladins. Time will tell.

Because the whining about sockets in t8 Pally vs. Warrior gear, annoys me, here's some info:

Blue socket = 24 stam
Yellow socket = 8 def and 12 stam
Red socket = 8 dodge and 12 stam

Assuming a Paladin and a Warrior used the above gems in all applicable sockets in their tier gear, and adding in the socket bonuses that they would get as a result:

Paladin:
Stam: 141 (Paladins get +14% stam from talents)= 160.74 stam after talents
Defense Rating: 16
Dodge Rating: 32

Warrior:
Stam: 141 (Unless something has changed, Warriors get +6% stam from talents) = 149.46 stam after talents
Defense Rating: 38
Dodge Rating: 8

Just counting sockets+socket bonuses+stam talents, on the tier gear, Paladins get 11 more stam and 24 dodge rating, while Warriors get 22 more defense rating.
So, in conclusion, yes Paladins may have to buy some gems that aren't blue, but the sky seems to be hanging up there, and there's a strong chance the sun will still come up tomorrow.