Has anyone tested ret DPS in this build yet?

[Adamson]

Seems fine to me.

L:O

<3

[belfpala]

I play ret, and in fact have almost always played ret.

Sometimes I snag myself for a rough 3k with Judgement of the Martyr, but I have ~24k HP in a raid, it'd take a full minute to kill myself if EVERY single hit was a big crit like that. The seal's recoil is virtually invisible, it's in the neighborhood of 200-300 damage a swing. Granted, being alliance I've only had Seal of the Martyr since WotLK launched, but I have never, ever killed myself using it, not even when I get brave in the arena with it.

What I'm saying is that they should buff Ret's damage WITHOUT Seal of Blood, but compensate by increasing the risk of using Seal of Blood, so that your damage NOW doesn't change if you switch to command, but will go up if you keep using Blood, on the other hand, you run a real risk of self termination, not just damage you can instaflash/shield away without ever noticing it.

Just a few points of clarification (before I conclude that I agree with your SoComm idea).

JoB hits me for more like 4-5k on a crit when I'm fully 25 man raid buffed. Yes, my JoB's do crit that hard. It takes a very noticeable chunk out of my health bar.

That said, it's not JoB in itself that will kill me. Sure, one time I did kill myself on Gluth, but that was my own fault. Ignoring duh moments like that, again, JoB in itself does not kill me.

Instead, the drawback is twofold. First, a healer has to take time away from whatever they're supposed to be doing (healing raid AE damage?) to heal me more than I would otherwise need to be healed. The healer has to spend mana they wouldn't otherwise need to spend*. Second, unavoidable raid damage becomes more dangerous when I've just hit myself for a significant amount. Imagine a situation where I simply cannot avoid taking a big damage spike (i.e., gimmick damage, something no skill or attention on my part can help me avoid). That gimmick damage has more potential to kill me than it does any other class with equal health (warlocks can use their health bar tactically; ret cannot without sacrificing significant dps).

* Caveat: JoL might more than make up for that mana, as it does amazing raid healing.

Getting back to your point about balancing ret damage around SoComm (presumably by buffing other abilities), I agree. The main problem I see with the recoil damage on SoB is that I absolutely have to use it to be competitive. I'd prefer a world in which the choice between SoComm and SoB was one of strategy and tactics, as you suggested.

(in before pvp qqers: this line of discussion is sandbox pve. stay out.)

[greatrichie]

Just a clarification, DS isnt bugged, but the DS libram is. Which is what is causing the high DS numbers. Switch to a different libram to get a better grasp of our DPS.

[Adamson]

Just a clarification, DS isnt bugged, but the DS libram is. Which is what is causing the high DS numbers. Switch to a different libram to get a better grasp of our DPS.

Ah. Adamson #1 didn't have my deadly libram.

Adamson #2 is working as intended :P

[Deathleech]

So with all the bugs finally fixed has anyone done any raids or anything to get a real comparison of our dmg in 3.1 compared to 3.0? I hoped on the PTR to screw around and my DPS seemed to be the same or a little higher. Of course this wasn't in a raid environment so I had nothing to compare numbers to and see in actuality.

[kailtas]

divine storm is broken. Currently doing 230% weapon damage. Hitting for 7-8k on crits.


>:/

try unequip venture.co libram, that is the reason it's doing 81% increase damage instead of flat 81.

[tommy0guns]

They need to up the self damage from blood to make it more dangerous to use it.

In the same breath, balance overall Paladin damage around using Command.

Then we have a choice, use SoB and risk dying all the time, but play closer to the top of the charts, or stick with SoComm and be safe.

It might help to give SoComm some raid utility as well, maybe a short group haste buff when the seal portion crits. Then it feels like SoComm is the main seal, and SoB is the risky seal for burn fights.

Flavor always gets a bonus in my book.

SoV is a better raid seal than SoC for Ret in most circumstances. SoR should get a bump and a balance. leave SoC as a bursty pvp seal.

Just a few points of clarification (before I conclude that I agree with your SoComm idea).

JoB hits me for more like 4-5k on a crit when I'm fully 25 man raid buffed. Yes, my JoB's do crit that hard. It takes a very noticeable chunk out of my health bar.

That said, it's not JoB in itself that will kill me. Sure, one time I did kill myself on Gluth, but that was my own fault. Ignoring duh moments like that, again, JoB in itself does not kill me.

Instead, the drawback is twofold. First, a healer has to take time away from whatever they're supposed to be doing (healing raid AE damage?) to heal me more than I would otherwise need to be healed. The healer has to spend mana they wouldn't otherwise need to spend*. Second, unavoidable raid damage becomes more dangerous when I've just hit myself for a significant amount. Imagine a situation where I simply cannot avoid taking a big damage spike (i.e., gimmick damage, something no skill or attention on my part can help me avoid). That gimmick damage has more potential to kill me than it does any other class with equal health (warlocks can use their health bar tactically; ret cannot without sacrificing significant dps).

* Caveat: JoL might more than make up for that mana, as it does amazing raid healing.

Getting back to your point about balancing ret damage around SoComm (presumably by buffing other abilities), I agree. The main problem I see with the recoil damage on SoB is that I absolutely have to use it to be competitive. I'd prefer a world in which the choice between SoComm and SoB was one of strategy and tactics, as you suggested.

(in before pvp qqers: this line of discussion is sandbox pve. stay out.)

your JoBs crit for 15k on a regular basis? is this in Naxx or BWL? cuz i haven't found enough +Str in the game to consistently pull those numbers. maybe on a nice Heroism/AW/Thaddius crit session i could do that.

[Endarius]

15K Jotm crits are not uncommon if:

-You are fully geared
-You are fully raidbuffed
-You have trinkets active (Greatness + FoFF or Mirror Proc)
-You have AV active
-You have Zerking chant active

This usually can happen on about 90% of bossfights if you are timing your AV to your trinkets (Getting an addon like Powerauras greatly assists in this).

Granted, things will be bigger on Mirror Procs than FoFFs, yet its harder to make "all the planets align" if you will. My personal biggest Jotm crit on a non-gimmick fight was 16121 on Gluth of all fights. This was not done with any targeted buffs (like tricks of the trade or Hysteria- with both of those up, I see a 20K Jotm as a very real possibility WITH CURRENT CONTENT.

[Gilgemesh]

Yes, with the current changes to divine storm (136% weapon damage???) and jotw, and the talents that increase cs damage and excorcism damage(er 15% I'm thinking) And the buff to melee haste(30%). My pally is doing roughly 4-500 more dps and total damage, even with the nerfs to RV and fanaticism. I will test again, and provide full parse based on the same fights, in live and on ptr, as soon as my guild gets fired up again(on friday) so look out for info sat-sunday, to support my info.

[tommy0guns]

i dont know. it just seems really hard to find a parse with a pally "doing 12-15k JoB crits" on WWS. the exceptional 15K i understand.

the "JoB hits me for more like 4-5k on a crit when I'm fully 25 man raid buffed" leads me to believe this is commonplace. i'd be impressed to see a parse with JoB averaging 5k (crit/noncrit) on a non-hax boss. then i'll i crap myself if you can show me the JoB recoil avg anywhere close to 5k.