Why be anything but a DK?

[Deleted]

druid/rogue is sub par with cyclone/blind sharing a DR now and i think that the HOF stun removal was the only really OP thing about pallies. In that case we disagree, i think pallies will still be competitive healers. As for the changes to DKs COI is the only big problem i have with them. If frost nova and entangling roots both have DR then why would their 30 yard instant cast root not be on DR... makes no sense.

But about the cyclone thing, its kinda hard to cast when you can't get the seperation in the first place... everyone can interupt casting at melee almost non-stop so thats not really an option.

If we didn't have stun remove we'd die so fast though. Imagine a DK/paladin going on another paladin - stun + goyl and the paladin is pretty much dead (unless he has bubble, and if they can do that once they can do it again and get a kill) whistle maybe a priest/shaman/druid wouldn't - HoTs rolling (considering DK's wouldn't be able to remove them come next patch), shield/renew/pom, grounding/riptide ticking (not sure if that heals alot but meh). Paladins got nothing other than SS, it helps, but it will proc maybe once during the stun duration, it's not really gona help much. There's always PvP trinket + freedom after and shock/FoL yourself to like 15k again, but it's a 2 minute CD whistle the DK/paladin can pull that off every minute. Same for rogue/mage, if we loose our ability to remove the first kidney + shatter or deepfreeze we're gona be a free-kill for that combo again, just like in all the other seasons. As for druids not cycloning melee - why would they not be able to? If it's a warrior fake the pummel and bam, sorted, same for rogues (though they can gouge and stun/cloak, but you can time your cyclone with their CD's - if you need to cyclone they've probably used their gouge and stun already anyway). Against a DK well, you know, it can happen but it's DK's we're talking about here.

About Chains of Ice I agree totally, I think they should put that on DR AND remove that desecration ground or whatever it's called that works like a bloody hunter trap, not only it's OP as hell it also takes away like 10 of my FPS during a game T_T.

[rathok]

If we didn't have stun remove we'd die so fast though. Imagine a DK/paladin going on another paladin - stun + goyl and the paladin is pretty much dead (unless he has bubble, and if they can do that once they can do it again and get a kill) whistle maybe a priest/shaman/druid wouldn't - HoTs rolling (considering DK's wouldn't be able to remove them come next patch), shield/renew/pom, grounding/riptide ticking (not sure if that heals alot but meh). Paladins got nothing other than SS, it helps, but it will proc maybe once during the stun duration, it's not really gona help much. There's always PvP trinket + freedom after and shock/FoL yourself to like 15k again, but it's a 2 minute CD whistle the DK/paladin can pull that off every minute. Same for rogue/mage, if we loose our ability to remove the first kidney + shatter or deepfreeze we're gona be a free-kill for that combo again, just like in all the other seasons. As for druids not cycloning melee - why would they not be able to? If it's a warrior fake the pummel and bam, sorted, same for rogues (though they can gouge and stun/cloak, but you can time your cyclone with their CD's - if you need to cyclone they've probably used their gouge and stun already anyway). Against a DK well, you know, it can happen but it's DK's we're talking about here.

About Chains of Ice I agree totally, I think they should put that on DR AND remove that desecration ground or whatever it's called that works like a bloody hunter trap, not only it's OP as hell it also takes away like 10 of my FPS during a game T_T.

right, there are counters and counters to counts. I'm just saing its not as easy as cyclone=gg full heals. And if they can setup a stun+nuke then you can have the hunter wait to scatter when you get stunned, or you can trinket the stun or bubble the stun. besides, you can stun back afterwards, just dont be a nub and throw it into a AMS or IBF. Once you stun a DK they can't do anything to remove it other then trinket just like everyone else and even if they trinket it you can still hit them with a full repentance (though not in 3.1). as for mage/rogue.. that's a trickey comp and requires a lot more help from the hunter but as it stands you already can't HOF out of the opening kidney and you'll still get shattered so who cares. The mage just silences before the cheepshot wears off and you bubble or die.

[Deleted]

right, there are counters and counters to counts. I'm just saing its not as easy as cyclone=gg full heals. And if they can setup a stun+nuke then you can have the hunter wait to scatter when you get stunned, or you can trinket the stun or bubble the stun. besides, you can stun back afterwards, just dont be a nub and throw it into a AMS or IBF. Once you stun a DK they can't do anything to remove it other then trinket just like everyone else and even if they trinket it you can still hit them with a full repentance (though not in 3.1). as for mage/rogue.. that's a trickey comp and requires a lot more help from the hunter but as it stands you already can't HOF out of the opening kidney and you'll still get shattered so who cares. The mage just silences before the cheepshot wears off and you bubble or die.

The paladin can cleanse the stun unless he's retarded, and as for mage rogue - HoF on a kidney after 2 seconds is better than no freedom at all for 6 seconds, at least in my book. And I wasn't counting on support, you can obviously scatter/wyvern the DK untill it wears off but unless they're retarded they can get rid of either (dispell or trinket considering they got a paladin healer) and do 90% of the damage they'd do if you had done nothing to peel. I don't like depending totally on 1 minute+ CD's to keep myself up for 4 seconds because of the totally rediculous damage that is going to go on me. In s2-4 I didn't need to scream at my warrior to come intercept the rogue if I got stunned (unless it was a good rogue/mage), but now I ALWAYS depend on my HoF to get rid of paladin stuns against DK/paladin, which means I'll rely on wyvern/scatter not to miss, not to be dispelled or trinket to be able to survive a stun - it's total bullshit if you ask me (unless they do actually nerf DK damage, which I hope they do).

[lizard]

Though you're wrong again when you say that all those classes, can't be arsed listing them, eat up resto druids. They really don't.

I play warrior and I destroy resto druids. they do not have any viable option to prevent me from sundering, then deathwish + recklessness nuking them till they have to start casting nourish, which is pummeled. even if I get snared, I still usually manage to stay in melee range and apply pressure. After ~30 seconds of contact I usually have them fall. no, they cannot cyclone or root me or travel form away, I have enough countermeasures.
I know several good rogues who say they do basically the same. I know a hunter who says he has no problems with druids. AND I know at least two druids who say they get absolutely facerolled by mentioned classes when they are not heavily babysitted. all of the mentioned people (including me) play at over 2k ratings.

Also, a DK can kill a holy paladin SO easily if they know how to play, you as a paladin (to survive) either need really good support or you need to fake cast heal tank, if the DK is good enough to not take the fakes and interrupt properly you're dead. And that's that.

...except that every healer is dead when he gets CSed and since 10k holy shocks, almost all healers have to cast about equally often. but not all of them have Hammer of Injustice and bubble.

Mages can also kill paladins, I've even done that on TR as a mage, it's so easy, let alone with support from a rogue (their usual partner in any bracket).

again, all the other healers are even more vulnerable to mage/rogue, especially when their mate is CCed. Not all of them have plate+shield and bubble though.

Locks can kill paladins with a full-row of the dots + full duration fear - unless they suck. Feral druids can kill paladins, rogues can kill paladins. It's all about not sucking, I admit it might be harder for most classes to kill a paladin than to kill a priest, but if you don't suck as any other healer, you can also survive nearly as long (unless it's a DK, they're fine)

they might be able to, if they are good. but it takes THAT much longer and is SO MUCH MORE DIFFICULT to kill a paladin than any other healer, that it is literally impossible in a real arena match against non-braindead paladin + x. that is what I have experienced myself and been told by almost all good PvP players I happened to talk to.
also, how much "not suck" does it take for a shaman to not be killed in the second cheap shot while having to save his trinket for the blind and not being able to cast even one spell? because thats exactly what happens against mage/rogue 80% of the time. a paladin just hits his /cast Divine shield /lol /spit macro and watches the enemy team lose the initiaive and with it their chances in the game.

Also I know EXACLY why druids don't work in arena right now, and that reason are deathknights, ONLY. Me and my hunter have played against druid/rogue, druid/warrior and druid/lock at 2.5k ish rating, but they themselves admited the only reason they got high is playing at night when DK's aren't playing or got lucky with the teams they faced not having a DK in it. I have a group of 4-5 people in my guild/server that are extremely good PvPers and one of them happens to be a druid who is at 2.3k with a rogue, even he says that without ANY buffs and just the removal of HoTs talent from DK's being nerfed they can be a good healing class again. I'm pretty sure he knows more about druids than you do, since you play a mage (pretty bad at it too arena-wise judgeing from your comments). Even I know more about druids than you do by the looks of it.

As mentioned above, I do not play mage and I know several very good druids. When I listen to them it's also mostly the dk HoT removal but it is ALSO the lack of mobility, defensive cooldowns and HPS that come up. Neither travel form nor barkskin alone cut it compared to paladins' equivalents and the HoTs alone do not suffice to keep anything alive, so they have to start casting like any other healer, which equals pulling up your skirt when there is a melee or mage in the proximity (since most counterspell spells are off GCD and can be used even against short cast time spells very effectively).

[rathok]

The paladin can cleanse the stun unless he's retarded, and as for mage rogue - HoF on a kidney after 2 seconds is better than no freedom at all for 6 seconds, at least in my book. And I wasn't counting on support, you can obviously scatter/wyvern the DK untill it wears off but unless they're retarded they can get rid of either (dispell or trinket considering they got a paladin healer) and do 90% of the damage they'd do if you had done nothing to peel. I don't like depending totally on 1 minute+ CD's to keep myself up for 4 seconds because of the totally rediculous damage that is going to go on me. In s2-4 I didn't need to scream at my warrior to come intercept the rogue if I got stunned (unless it was a good rogue/mage), but now I ALWAYS depend on my HoF to get rid of paladin stuns against DK/paladin, which means I'll rely on wyvern/scatter not to miss, not to be dispelled or trinket to be able to survive a stun - it's total bullshit if you ask me (unless they do actually nerf DK damage, which I hope they do).

DK damage is getting nurfed... they are being rerouted to being a kite-able class again because right now they aren't. They do just about the same damage from 30 yards as they do in melee. Besides, the only way your going to get bursted down really fast i would imagine is if the DK pops his garg and blows empowered runeweapon but those are both a 3 and 5 minute cooldown so... yes, you do have to pop defensive cooldowns to survive someones offensive cooldowns. As for the pally... what are you going to say? Nurf pallies

[iAk]

Obelodalix !!!

I dont like:
-You
-Your sig EDIT: Not cus of the text, but of your annoying dwarf spamming my screen as I scroll down..
-Your "wall of text" style of typing

[Deleted]

Obelodalix !!!

I dont like:
-You
-Your sig EDIT: Not cus of the text, but of your annoying dwarf spamming my screen as I scroll down..
-Your "wall of text" style of typing

iAk !!! (what a retarded name)

I dont:
-know you
-care.

[Ivpiv]

I seriously don't know what I was thinking when I didn't roll a DK at the start of the xpack.

There is just no reason not to be a DK. You can either try really hard in arena to beat DKs and lose to most of them, not because they are better players or more skilled, but simply because you are not a DK, or just join the OPness and faceroll your way to the top.

Why haven't I joined in on the OPness? I don't ahve an answer for myself. I guess the only answer is to roll one myself. There is just no reason not to be a DK.

Seriously, why haven't we all rolled DKs?

*Sigh* ffs DKs arent the reason 2v2 is dominated by dk paladin setups..

ITS THE FARKING PALADINS!? do you see alot of DK priest setups ? how about shaman dk ?( some but they still loose to pala dk)

*You might have seen some druid dks or priest dks or shaman dks but they will all loose against a halfbrained dk pala setup.. Not because the DKs are op ( DKs are op its just not the reason ) it is the combined opness of the pala and dk that makes it unbeatable..

Now all the noobs go " WE CAN BEAT THEM" and i go GRATS your BG sucks.. look at the top 50 its like 47 out of them that a pala dk..


So stop focusing on DKs and starting including Palas cause honestly a retri pala will roundhouse kick a DK in a duel anyday.. "but he is any unholy" but i dont care... And next patch with exorcism dmg and so on they will be even worse..

[Deleted]

*Sigh* ffs DKs arent the reason 2v2 is dominated by dk paladin setups..

ITS THE FARKING PALADINS!? do you see alot of DK priest setups ? how about shaman dk ?( some but they still loose to pala dk)

*You might have seen some druid dks or priest dks or shaman dks but they will all loose against a halfbrained dk pala setup.. Not because the DKs are op ( DKs are op its just not the reason ) it is the combined opness of the pala and dk that makes it unbeatable..

Now all the noobs go " WE CAN BEAT THEM" and i go GRATS your BG sucks.. look at the top 50 its like 47 out of them that a pala dk..


So stop focusing on DKs and starting including Palas cause honestly a retri pala will roundhouse kick a DK in a duel anyday.. "but he is any unholy" but i dont care... And next patch with exorcism dmg and so on they will be even worse..

No. It's not the paladins. And you're just confused, get your head checked - first you says paladins are the reason DK/paladin is OP, and then you complain about ret's beating DK's... in duels (duels are skill, besides, a DK can beat pretty much ANY class in a duel)? What? I shouldn't laugh at other people but this is too much, made me giggle.

Also in my BG which is by far the best in EU bar cyclone (some of it), there are 14 (seriously) DK/paladins in the top 20, a DK/shaman and a DK/priest. Then there are 3 hunter/shamans and a shaman/lock. That not only proves that DK's are by far the uttmost OP and rediculous DPS class in terms of arena right now but also the fact that paladin/DK is the only REALLY OP comp with a holy paladin in right now. Big surprise.

Lizard, you've gone wrong in way too many parts of your latest post for me to have the will/time to correct you this time - sorry. I might tomorrow.

[rathok]

Really, Obelodalix, i don't see how you have any problems against Hpally/Dk. SV hunters aren't too far from DKs in terms of their OPness... Yes, you can get pwnt if they both focus you and pop cooldowns but with a good partner you can survive or just pop counter cooldowns. You make it sound like Pallies are squishies but plate+shield vs a class that is at least 30-40% physical is a pretty nice advantage. If your hunter is focusing on the DK there is no way you shouldn't be able to LOS kite him and if he's on your Hunter then who cares... he doesn't have MS or mana drains so you'll win that mana war and his pet is much easier to kill for drinks.

[starvethedead]

:'( :'( :'(

[rathok]

Anyways.... back to the OP's topic. DKs really aren't that fun to play. I do enjoy tanking on mine but i just don't like them in PVP. Mage/warlock is much more fun imo, i think locks are probably the most fun (affliction is unstopable). That's just my opinion and preference. After that i would probably have to say resto shams are pretty fun, or restokins (yes, they are still decent).

[Deleted]

Really, Obelodalix, i don't see how you have any problems against Hpally/Dk. SV hunters aren't too far from DKs in terms of their OPness... Yes, you can get pwnt if they both focus you and pop cooldowns but with a good partner you can survive or just pop counter cooldowns. You make it sound like Pallies are squishies but plate+shield vs a class that is at least 30-40% physical is a pretty nice advantage. If your hunter is focusing on the DK there is no way you shouldn't be able to LOS kite him and if he's on your Hunter then who cares... he doesn't have MS or mana drains so you'll win that mana war and his pet is much easier to kill for drinks.

I don't have much problems with DK/pala as survival/paladin - that's not the point though, the fact our specific comp doesn't have that much trouble beating them doesn't mean I shouldn't think about balance in a more general way. The fact I win doesn't mean I shouldn't care about them completlying anihilating other classes/combos. It's just not right. We do win 70, maybe 80% of the matches we do against paladin/DK (even if they're actually good aka about 200 higher rating than us since equally skilled people playing your avarage comp are about 100-200 rating lower than equally skilled DK comps are) I know for a fact some combos have about 70 or 80 to loose - that's the ways counters work, but a combo shouldn't counter EVERY other combo apart from 1 or 2, it should be the other way around, they should only counter 1 or 2, that's the way it used to be before WotLK hit, and it felt right.

One thing you're wrong about is the tactic against that combo, I mean, kite the DK LoS? For what? So the hunter can't help me besides the trap nor DPS him? Or do you want him on the paladin who can also just pillar-hump while the DK slowly (or swiftly) skills me to death? It doesn't work - hunters do fairly good damage to DK's compared to other classes, it's not something you can not use against them. You need to be on the DK (unless the paladin has braindamage and stays in the middle, if so just rape his ass up - but as a hunter right now you can do that to pretty much any class that stands clueless in the middle of an arena, it's just asking for it). And yes, the pet is quite easy to kill, also I can fear it, but a good paladin/hunter shouldn't need to drink against a DK/paladin, just freedom the hunter on a stun or after a grip, hunter goes kite-city, pop devine plea every time you do and you're mana is fine. Though his pet can be resummoned every what? 2 minutes? And it doesn't have a cast time, if we loose our pet not only we loose his defensive abilities making even more vunarable to the DK's rediculous burst (since we can't resummon it back, there's no way a half-decent paladin/DK is gona let a hunter get a hard-cast ress off on his pet) but the paladin can go drink to make up for the viper-sting loss of mana while the DK pops defensive "cooldowns" (not like they're up like 90% of the time they need them are they).

[frozencold]

Hunter rape all classes pretty much and DK rape all clases too, end of story

palidans can now remove snares and stun at the same time ! YAY

combine them?

OPNESS WOOT

didnt u guys love when bgs were controled by how many DKs there were?

i still love how when i go to the BG chart and click healing done, i see a dk in the top 3 spots....

[theomegapoint]

So 7 DKS in the top 20.
There are 8 pallies and locks.

What were locks QQing about again? Poor survivability? So you're cloth, you are squishy. You do shitloads of dmg if your teammates control properly and you have the only reliable mana drain. GG on the QQ.

[Deleted]

Just 'cos 1 person makes the class work doesn't mean they're balanced. While I agree every class CAN work it's far from taking the same skills. DK's are still OP survivability/burst/sustained DPS even their healing is retarded. Hunters do lots of damage basicly and well, TNT, you know. Locks are just overpowered, they're not even that squishy and the damage is just stupidly high. Feral burst is sick considering their survivability. Ret's also have alot of damage. All the other classes I consider to be slightly balanced, be it mages, paladin healers, rogues, shaman healers, disc priests, warriors, you name it, the only reason they are at the top aswell is either because exceptional players are playing them in the TR or well, if it's a PMR, we all should know that comp dominated 5 season. Why would it be different now, it's all about flash-nukes, that combo already relied on alot of burst during a CC-chain, which means it would work better now with all the damage going crazy as it is.

[Verth]

So 7 DKS in the top 20.
There are 8 pallies and locks.

What were locks QQing about again? Poor survivability? So you're cloth, you are squishy. You do shitloads of dmg if your teammates control properly and you have the only reliable mana drain. GG on the QQ.

Hi let me introduce you to my friend: it's called gear grind.
For locks to be viable in any way in arena they are the most gear-resil dependent class.
If i have 900 resilience i don't need survivability. I'll have enough time to get health from haunt and siphon life.
A death knight, a paladin, a hunter, a rogue a mage and so on will be able to dominate in PVP just when they hit 80.
A warlock, a druid, (a priest?), a shaman, a warrior will need to get gear and resilience, warlocks being the most squishy, unless demo, the no1 broken specc, we have to suffer endlessly in BGs to get that ugly blue PVP gear.

On the arena tournament we get full end PVP gear, enough to sustain us.
Locks QQ in general because we are in need of love when naked.

I personally beat death knights like nothing. Most of them don't know when to even open cell against a lock and when to clic brain freeze. I just watch them die while i'm standing.

[AetherMcLoud]

Hi let me introduce you to my friend: it's called gear grind.
For locks to be viable in any way in arena they are the most gear-resil dependent class.
If i have 900 resilience i don't need survivability. I'll have enough time to get health from haunt and siphon life.

Good for you. I am a shadowpriest with 1000 resilience and I am still not viable for arena.

[rathok]

I don't have much problems with DK/pala as survival/paladin - that's not the point though, the fact our specific comp doesn't have that much trouble beating them doesn't mean I shouldn't think about balance in a more general way. The fact I win doesn't mean I shouldn't care about them completlying anihilating other classes/combos. It's just not right. We do win 70, maybe 80% of the matches we do against paladin/DK (even if they're actually good aka about 200 higher rating than us since equally skilled people playing your avarage comp are about 100-200 rating lower than equally skilled DK comps are) I know for a fact some combos have about 70 or 80 to loose - that's the ways counters work, but a combo shouldn't counter EVERY other combo apart from 1 or 2, it should be the other way around, they should only counter 1 or 2, that's the way it used to be before WotLK hit, and it felt right.

One thing you're wrong about is the tactic against that combo, I mean, kite the DK LoS? For what? So the hunter can't help me besides the trap nor DPS him? Or do you want him on the paladin who can also just pillar-hump while the DK slowly (or swiftly) skills me to death? It doesn't work - hunters do fairly good damage to DK's compared to other classes, it's not something you can not use against them. You need to be on the DK (unless the paladin has braindamage and stays in the middle, if so just rape his ass up - but as a hunter right now you can do that to pretty much any class that stands clueless in the middle of an arena, it's just asking for it). And yes, the pet is quite easy to kill, also I can fear it, but a good paladin/hunter shouldn't need to drink against a DK/paladin, just freedom the hunter on a stun or after a grip, hunter goes kite-city, pop devine plea every time you do and you're mana is fine. Though his pet can be resummoned every what? 2 minutes? And it doesn't have a cast time, if we loose our pet not only we loose his defensive abilities making even more vunarable to the DK's rediculous burst (since we can't resummon it back, there's no way a half-decent paladin/DK is gona let a hunter get a hard-cast ress off on his pet) but the paladin can go drink to make up for the viper-sting loss of mana while the DK pops defensive "cooldowns" (not like they're up like 90% of the time they need them are they).

Are you freaking kidding me... all of your posts were "QQ DK/HAPLLY PWNS ME AND THERE IS NOTHING I CAN DO, HOJ+DPS AND I CANT DO ANYTHING BUT BUBBLE!!!" and now your saying that you dont have a problem with them and generally beat them?

As for counter comps... no, that is not how it was in TBC. Just, no. I mean there was rogue/mage which pwnt druid war but that was about it.

And thank you for "correcting" my strat but FYI, i play rogue/mage. You sounded pretty helpless with getting pwnt by HOJ and all so i was trying to give you some food for thought and obviously if you are LOSing the DK then you would stop LOSing your hunter once the DK started beating on you again... but evidently as we all just found out you don't actually have any problems against that team, you were just complaining because you win all the time...?

@the DKs defensive "cooldowns" always being up - that is one of the things they are changing in 3.1. They are changing boneshiled from a 1 minute cooldown to 2 minutes so there will be a longer time for them to eat full damage. They are also nurfing frost pressence so that DKs will not be quite so "tanky" when they are being focused. There is also a 15 second fear immune that they all get in frost called lichborne which gives them a 25% miss to melee which is going away in the patch (the miss is going away, not the fear immune).

BTW, you've just countered all of your own complaints about this comp. I know that rogue/mage doesn't really have too many problems against DK/Hpally so I'm not going to talk trash pally mana regen is out of control so they tend to dominate all the other healer+dps comps and the 2x bubbles make them pretty rough for most of the other 2 dps teams... that's just what i hear though. Like i said, i don't know pallys particularly well. I know roughly what ya'll are about but as for the seals/judgments and crap idk what you guys have going on ???

[rathok]

Just 'cos 1 person makes the class work doesn't mean they're balanced. While I agree every class CAN work it's far from taking the same skills. DK's are still OP survivability/burst/sustained DPS even their healing is retarded. Hunters do lots of damage basicly and well, TNT, you know. Locks are just overpowered, they're not even that squishy and the damage is just stupidly high. Feral burst is sick considering their survivability. Ret's also have alot of damage. All the other classes I consider to be slightly balanced, be it mages, paladin healers, rogues, shaman healers, disc priests, warriors, you name it, the only reason they are at the top aswell is either because exceptional players are playing them in the TR or well, if it's a PMR, we all should know that comp dominated 5 season. Why would it be different now, it's all about flash-nukes, that combo already relied on alot of burst during a CC-chain, which means it would work better now with all the damage going crazy as it is.

lol... pick a side. You said DK/Hpally is OP and you were complaining about how they destroy you and you can't do anything about it. You also said that Druids ect are viable because you know some that are really high in your BG. Now you've said that Hpally/DK is cake to beat and you told me how to counter all of the things that you said kill you and that just because 1 person makes it work (read:druids) doesn't mean there aren't imbalances.

Do you actually have an opinion or is it just whatever the conversation favors? All I know so far is that you think Hpallies aren't OP because you play one... that's about it.