So How Do you feel about "counter" classes

[DoomDeezy]

I was just wondering how do people feel about the rock paper scissor concept. I hear alot of people crying for nerfs for some classes (some are very unbalanced and need a nerf) but, alot of people forget about this concept. Personally in tbc when i played feral druid i understood that lock was my counter class. That i would be chain feared with no way to get out of it to death. Was fear balanced? I'm not here to say, all im saying is that classes need counters. Same for my warrior vs. mage. I understood that their class mechanic = greater than mine. I also understood that on my feral druid i could be another mage equally geared plain and simple no if ands or buts. SO how do you feel about certain classes having a specific counter class?

[Evilite]

Well I think counter classes are fine but I think blizzard should do more, like they have done, to give the underhanded classes an upper hand against the people who can destroy them.

For example, you druids now have berserk to completely turn the tables against us Locks and us Locks have Metamorphosis to obviously turn the tables on rogues (even though barely anyone uses it...)

There has to be some sort of rock-paper-scissors to give each class a specific utility but it is also very nice to see in WOTLK how they are giving the underprivileged side a cooldown ability to survive sometimes... even if meta could use a buff (which it is getting in 3.1)

[Avalar]

For this game, It's already too late in the gaming design to implent that. And not only that, This game also harbors the Most QQ'ers I have seen in any other gaming community. I cant imagine hearing the endless crys of players QQing about one class always beating them up.

But the overall idea is great. I loved playing a game like Guildwars where I knew if i was my Elementalist, No melee dare attack me, with a constant "Blind" spell ready, their efforts would end up with 95% chance to miss. And if I was my Mesmer. I knew any spellcaster would be an idiot if they thought they could get a single spell off on my without getting interupted, silenced, and mana drained.

[DoomDeezy]

Well when i first started this game that's how i assumed the pvp was. A warrior was my first class and everytime I'd just get destroyed by mages w/ barely any effort. I think if people realized they have counter classes in some sort of fashion then there would be alot less QQ about X class beating Y class all the time.

[Zarcob]

Counter classes are not deliberately designed. I do not have a link to it but blues have posted before that they did not want to create a rock / paper / scissors dynamic between classes. The concept of "counter classes" was entirely a construct of the pvp community to rationalize why Blizzard never seemed to fix issues that were ridiculously powerful against one enemy and little more than mundane against another.

Also, there's a difference between having an advantage against a class and being absolutely stomped with no hope of winning against a class. I thought priest healers had a decent advantage over paladins last season, but were not absolutely out of control like druids were in comparison.

The big problem with rock / paper / scissors though is that the player must have the ability to use any of the 3 weapons. It's perfectly balanced because you always have that choice. In an MMO most players simply want to play the class which appeals to them, so if they get stuck as paper when scissors happens to be a flavor of the month class, then they have virtually no hope of success in pvp until rock makes a comeback.

Lastly, counter classes work fairly well in a big BG, with say 15 v 15 or more, because there's almost always a rock nearby to help if you get attacked by scissors. This isn't the case at all in an arena, where paper will have no chance to win a season simply because scissors is the recent flavor of the month. Until they move away from putting all the best items as arena rewards then there isn't much place for counter classes in a 2s or 3s bracket.

[Elementium]

it'd be nice if they reworked all classes to work with the counter class thing. sadly it seems it's always gonna be Rock,Paper,Scissors, TIDAL WAVE!

[cfeuer1]

as a mage my counter class is a rogue yeah? least most of the time that and a ret pally are all i can't kill.

DK mage counter class? don't make me laugh.

i won't go into ret pally qq and say they are OP just to be spat back at with comments of their arn't op.

but rogues. well they have tremendous burst. the kind that puts deep freeze+icelance spam to shame since as soon as the stun is off they can vanish. after im out of their stun chain im crippeld and taking DoT plus blinking only lets them use deadly throw. but when really thinking about it....i can nuke a rogue in 2-3 shots if he has his eyes on somebody else. rogues are really mostly offense with little defense. at least until CoS came. now i can't slow you to save my life. literally. if i IB they only go out of combat and start the stun chain again. when i manage to survive that i was able to turn the tables and sometimes win. but now they have spell dodge too...i mean honestly.... spell immunity. spell dodge and vanish(do note i didn't complain about vanish separately from this. i understand a rogue really kinda needs this. but not all of this.)

[TeeZed]

as a mage my counter class is a rogue yeah? least most of the time that and a ret pally are all i can't kill.

DK mage counter class? don't make me laugh.

i won't go into ret pally qq and say they are OP just to be spat back at with comments of their arn't op.

but rogues. well they have tremendous burst. the kind that puts deep freeze+icelance spam to shame since as soon as the stun is off they can vanish. after im out of their stun chain im crippeld and taking DoT plus blinking only lets them use deadly throw. but when really thinking about it....i can nuke a rogue in 2-3 shots if he has his eyes on somebody else. rogues are really mostly offense with little defense. at least until CoS came. now i can't slow you to save my life. literally. if i IB they only go out of combat and start the stun chain again. when i manage to survive that i was able to turn the tables and sometimes win. but now they have spell dodge too...i mean honestly.... spell immunity. spell dodge and vanish(do note i didn't complain about vanish separately from this. i understand a rogue really kinda needs this. but not all of this.)

Use blink, use iceblock, use frost nova.

And you're saying a rogue doesn't need all of this, you gotta be kidding. Evasion counters melee classes, CoS counters for a short time... casters. Vanish is supposed to be an escape mechanism, 5.5 second gouge can be useful as combat to pretty much stealth back up and start again.

As for the stuns, Use blink.
Problems with pally burst, Blink Out the stun, silence them if specced right (Most are)
And yes, any good mage can eat a DK alive. Aside from fire but they suck in general.

[AetherMcLoud]

Rock-Paper-Scissors concept is OK on an ability by ability level.
It is completely retarded though on a class by class level.

What should never happen (but still does) is: Class A is a hard counter to Class B. Example: Rogue is pretty much a hard counter to priests.

What should happen (but doesn't most of the time) is: Ability A is a hard counter to Ability B. Each class has a different mix of abilities from A to F or whatever. Example: Mass Dispell is a hard counter to Iceblock and Palabubble.

[yaamaan]

Paper rock scissors is OK for me.
One little problem... locks... for which class are we counterclass? pal, cham....... that's all? oO
And the fact that we're counterclass for cham and pal relies on our fear, which will be nerf.
Who are our counterclass? rogues, dks, wars, mages, ferals.
Doesn't seem very fair.
( don't taunt my english pls, not my motherlanguage )

[DarkKiller]

as a mage my counter class is a rogue yeah? least most of the time that and a ret pally are all i can't kill.

DK mage counter class? don't make me laugh.

i won't go into ret pally qq and say they are OP just to be spat back at with comments of their arn't op.

but rogues. well they have tremendous burst. the kind that puts deep freeze+icelance spam to shame since as soon as the stun is off they can vanish. after im out of their stun chain im crippeld and taking DoT plus blinking only lets them use deadly throw. but when really thinking about it....i can nuke a rogue in 2-3 shots if he has his eyes on somebody else. rogues are really mostly offense with little defense. at least until CoS came. now i can't slow you to save my life. literally. if i IB they only go out of combat and start the stun chain again. when i manage to survive that i was able to turn the tables and sometimes win. but now they have spell dodge too...i mean honestly.... spell immunity. spell dodge and vanish(do note i didn't complain about vanish separately from this. i understand a rogue really kinda needs this. but not all of this.)

Good mage should be able to win 80% duels vs good rogue. Frost mage ofc.

Paper rock scissors is OK for me.
One little problem... locks... for which class are we counterclass? pal, cham....... that's all? oO
And the fact that we're counterclass for cham and pal relies on our fear, which will be nerf.
Who are our counterclass? rogues, dks, wars, mages, ferals.
Doesn't seem very fair.
( don't taunt my english pls, not my motherlanguage )

Lock is counter to all healers. And u qq now for have 4 counters. Knowing that only counter to u in TBC was rogue, and Lock was counter to all other classes. true, mages could win in S4, but most of duels lock won.

For me Rock, paper, scissors is fine concept if win ration is not more than 70%. So that under classes have atleast 30% chance to win.

[Peng]

"counter" classes suck. Especially as a a holy priest. ^^

[ikeewa]

As much as mostly everyone will disagree with me i will say it anyway, you have to give every class every type of ability. as in rogues can heal but pallys have a slow and a ms and so on so forth like every class has a interupt a MS a way to heal, a way to get away its would just be whos more skillful in using it the only problem with this would be armor types

The way to fix that is basically make it obsolete sure pallys can wear plate but they should make it more damage reduction to spells type so you have it like this


Holy : 80%
Arcane:80%
Fire: 80%
Shadow :80%
Physical :80%
Nature :80%

So on and so forth no obviously this is purly for pvp and pve gear would be tottally diff but u could get upgrades for your armor and blacksmiths would be able to make all type of armor to make the professions more alive and wut not thats just the begging but i dont want to type any more

[Souless233]

I don't see anything wrong with counter classes. But there's a difference between counter and face rape classes. You can still go up against your counter class and win just based on skill.